Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Reading this story makes me appreciate my town's local fire companies all the more. They are unpaid volunteers and the companies all assist each other, respond to calls in neighboring towns and don't have to call ahead and make sure that the burning property has its protection permission paid up in full. Yesterday, after the tropical storm swept through the area, they were pumping out people's basements. Just last week, firefighters from my county and companies from a second county responded to a call in a third, neighboring county.

Fire is much too dangerous and unpredictable to let burn unchecked, all for the want of prepayments. It's a cartoonishly bad policy.

EDIT:
Patrick Degan wrote:Fair is most decidedly not fair in this incident. Those firefighters had a higher duty of care than the average citizen. They are emergency responders and had the means to put out a fire which was immediately destroying a family's property and endangering the lives and properties of the surrounding homeowners. Their action, or lack thereof, constitutes reckless endangerment and willful negligence. Had there been people trapped in the house as it was burning down, that firecrew would have been guilty of negligent homicide. The comparison with paying a fee for receiving water and gas service in no way compares to this situation and that should be rather obvious.
I'd even be willing to cut these people some slack if they were working with inadequate equipment etc., due to limited funds or something. But the fact that they had the means and did nothing really grates on me.
Image
User avatar
adam_grif
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2755
Joined: 2009-12-19 08:27am
Location: Tasmania, Australia

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by adam_grif »

But remember, this has to be a much better alternative than the evils of socialism and taxation...
This is easily the dumbest possible system they could implement; if they wanted to achieve a similar thing, they would still put your house out if you didn't pay, but then you would get charged with a significantly larger bill (the actual cost of putting their house out).

Attacking this as an example of "libertarianism in action" is quite the straw-man, considering this absolutely was a government service (just a supremely shittily implemented one) whereas it would be a private business under libertarianism, who I'm sure would be perfectly happy to charge preposterously high fees for people who didn't pay for "Fire insurance" with them. It would still be a shitty system but it would have at least been better than this colossal fuckup because he would have saved his house.

This is a tragic incident and represents an extreme social injustice caused by supremely moronic policies on the part of Tennessee politicians. Please don't use it as ammunition to continue the forum-wide dogpile on libertarian ideology when there are other perfectly valid reasons to hate on it.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Phantasee »

Thank you for putting it better than me. I'm not defending their actions, they were retarded, but the circumstances leading to the situation weren't wrong.
XXXI
Teebs
Jedi Master
Posts: 1090
Joined: 2006-11-18 10:55am
Location: Europe

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Teebs »

Patrick Degan wrote:Fair is most decidedly not fair in this incident. Those firefighters had a higher duty of care than the average citizen. They are emergency responders and had the means to put out a fire which was immediately destroying a family's property and endangering the lives and properties of the surrounding homeowners. Their action, or lack thereof, constitutes reckless endangerment and willful negligence. Had there been people trapped in the house as it was burning down, that firecrew would have been guilty of negligent homicide. The comparison with paying a fee for receiving water and gas service in no way compares to this situation and that should be rather obvious.
Actually if US law follows English law on this matter then pretty much the only duty of care they have is not to make the situation worse through their actions. Judges are generally quite unwilling to put duties of care onto emergency services.

Obviously I agree with the comments about the stupid handling of the situation. They should have put it out and then billed the owner the full cost of it.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Simon_Jester »

adam_grif wrote:This is easily the dumbest possible system they could implement; if they wanted to achieve a similar thing, they would still put your house out if you didn't pay, but then you would get charged with a significantly larger bill (the actual cost of putting their house out).

Attacking this as an example of "libertarianism in action" is quite the straw-man, considering this absolutely was a government service (just a supremely shittily implemented one) whereas it would be a private business under libertarianism, who I'm sure would be perfectly happy to charge preposterously high fees for people who didn't pay for "Fire insurance" with them. It would still be a shitty system but it would have at least been better than this colossal fuckup because he would have saved his house.

This is a tragic incident and represents an extreme social injustice caused by supremely moronic policies on the part of Tennessee politicians. Please don't use it as ammunition to continue the forum-wide dogpile on libertarian ideology when there are other perfectly valid reasons to hate on it.
I think the underlying difficulty is that experience shows that this sort of thing has already happened in the past with private fire departments (as in London, as mentioned above). Thus, while this incident is not "libertarianism in action," it is all too likely to have some of the same effects: people who didn't pay up suffering more property damage than would otherwise be necessary "pour encourager les autres."

The problem is one of game theory. Assume I charge roughly what the local government did here (not unreasonable, since a private fire department would have a lot of the same expenses to cover), say 50$ a year. Assume there are tens of thousands of people in the area who might pay for my service.

At first, a lot of them will make the same assumption the Cranicks did: that they can get me to put out the fire in their house "on credit" and I'll bill them later. But if a large fraction of the population makes the same decision, then unless there are a LOT more fires going on than I'd expect, I wind up losing money: thousands of people will just wait for an actual fire to break out and not pay me unless one does. Since you can go a fairly long time without your house burning down, I may not be able to recover my costs from the handful of fires that actually occur without bankrupting the occupants, at which point I get no more money. This is especially a problem in poorer areas- the short list of people whose houses are actually going to burn this year may not be able to support the costs of a fire department that can save their homes, even if they pay everything they have.

Whereas I can do very well indeed by making an example of the first family whose house catches fire when their insurance isn't paid up... because within the next few days after that fire, thousands of people will come in and suddenly be very enthusiastic about buying my protection money insurance.

So the incentive is there even for a private company: protection rackets (including passive-aggressive ones where you merely refuse to prevent a disaster rather than cause one) can be more profitable than disaster response itself.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Soontir C'boath
SG-14: Fuck the Medic!
Posts: 6813
Joined: 2002-07-06 12:15am
Location: Queens, NYC I DON'T FUCKING CARE IF MANHATTEN IS CONSIDERED NYC!! I'M IN IT ASSHOLE!!!
Contact:

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Which is why if they're going to even bother with this system, they should receive cash or credit card payment first. If the house finished burning down before that's possible then they don't have to expend the effort of getting to the scene anyway.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
User avatar
Liberty
Jedi Knight
Posts: 979
Joined: 2009-08-15 10:33pm

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Liberty »

This makes me think of Ancient Rome. They also had private companies offering "fire insurance." And at least one very wealthy Roman made his money by bringing his fire company to the scene, and then offering to buy the building off the owner. If the builder would sell, for a fairly low price of course, the wealthy Roman would put the fire out of his newly acquired property. If the owner wouldn't sell, this wealthy Roman would just sit and watch it burn, his fire crew at his side, thus leaving the owner with nothing. Naturally the owners generally sold, at least recouping part of their loss, and this one Roman became a very wealthy man.
Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. - Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Psychic_Sandwich wrote:If you go to central London and pay close attention, you'll notice that a lot of the older buildings have little bronze plaques on them dated from the 1800s and talking about fire insurance. If you didn't have one of those, then the fire brigade wouldn't help you if your building caught fire. That was a proper 'libertarian' system, in that the fire brigades were private organisations at that point. The actual effect was basically exactly the same as this, so the comparison is, IMO, an apt one.

There's a reason we abandoned that system, namely, that it was utter bollocks.
And example of this plaque system in the US:

Image

Some more examples.

However, according to the ushistory.org site about Benjamin Franklin and the origins of Philadelphia's Fire Department:
In a Gazette article of 1733 Franklin noted how fires were being fought. "Soon after it [a fire] is seen and cry'd out, the Place is crowded by active Men of different Ages, Professions and Titles who, as of one Mind and Rank, apply themselves with all Vigilance and Resolution, according to their Abilities, to the hard Work of conquering the increasing fire."

Good-will and amateur firefighters were not enough, though. Franklin suggested a "Club or Society of active Men belonging to each Fire Engine; whose Business is to attend all Fires with it whenever they happen."

Franklin's recommendations ultimately led in 1736 to the forming of Philadelphia's first volunteer fire brigade, the Union Fire Company. So many men wanted to join Franklin's Union Company that he suggested it would be more beneficial to the salubrity of the city if they formed their own fire brigades. In the next several years, Philadelphians witnessed the birth of the Heart-in-Hand, the Britannia, the Fellowship, as well as several other fire companies.

The logical next step was to form a fire insurance company. In 1751, Franklin and members of his Union Fire Company met with firefighters from other brigades for such a purpose. Over several meetings, insurance articles were discussed, drawn up, and presented publicly. All interested in subscribing to the project were told to sign a Deed of Settlement. The first to sign, Governor James Hamilton, was the son of famed "Philadelphia lawyer" Andrew Hamilton (see Independence Hall). Directly below Hamilton's signature are those of Benjamin Franklin and Philip Syng. Initially, over 70 prominent Philadelphia citizens became subscribers. On April 13, 1752, these men came together to elect a Board of Directors and Treasurer, who met for the first time on May 11, 1752.

At that meeting it was affirmed that those subscribed had agreed to establish an insurance company by the name of The Philadelphia Contributionship for the Insuring of Houses from Loss by Fire, and "to be and continue to be Contributors unto and equal Sharers in the losses as well as the gains." A dozen Directors were elected to the board. Franklin's name headed the list, followed by Philip Syng.

Syng, yet another of those extraordinary early Philadelphians, was an eminent silversmith and creator of the inkstand from which the Declaration of Independence was signed. In addition to being a vestryman at Christ Church and a member of the Philosophical Society, Syng found time to design the corporate seal for The Contributionship. Policyholders were required to affix these metal fire marks on their houses. Today, in Philadelphia, fire marks adorn many older and newer houses like a boutonniere on a suit.

Several Quaker merchants served on the original Board as did Samuel Rhoads, the Master Builder of Pennsylvania Hospital — the oldest continually insured institution in the country. Rhoads became the firm's first Surveyor, assigned to inspect buildings and determine if they were appropriate risks for The Contributionship. Once the recommendations of the Surveyor were made, all Directors voted on whether a property should be insured. All this occurred at a monthly meeting, which continues to this day (there are 10 meetings each year, and, of course, the directors have different duties now). The first group of Directors, who came up for re-election yearly, decided to levy fines on themselves in cases of absence or tardiness from these meetings. Money from these fines accumulated and was earmarked for civic improvements. The earliest fine money went into making and placing mile markers between Philadelphia and Trenton. Today a weather-beaten mile marker can be seen in The Contributionship's garden, a reminder of the firm's philanthropic past.

The first policyholders took out policies for seven years. After expiration, the premium money was returnable, subject to certain exceptions. Fire losses and office expenses were paid with money taken from a proportionate contribution of each policyholder.

Prudence coupled with providence have been hallmarks of The Contributionship.

Houses built not conforming to legal specifications were denied insurance. Mrs. Lydia Biddle, for instance, was denied insurance because of an unlawful wooden bakehouse adjoining her home. Early policyholders had to have a trap door to the roof as a way of fighting roof and chimney fires. During the British occupation of Philadelphia in 1777, a chimney sweep hired by the firm was sent around to occupied houses to maintain fireplaces. The lightning rod, invented by Director Ben Franklin, also helped to deter fires. Houses with trees in front of them were not insured because early hoses could not maneuver around them (this gave rise to a competitive company, the Mutual Assurance Company, which was better known as the Green Tree, which existed until 1997).

High-fire-risk businesses, such as apothecary shops and breweries, were either not given insurance or insured at significantly higher rates. Later, when skyscrapers were being built, the firm refused to insure them — and to this day, still don't. However, they do insure high-rise condominiums providing there is adequate firefighting equipment that can reach the insured space. Their judgment proved sound when the earliest Philadelphia skyscraper, the Jayne Building, housing pharmaceutical supplies, had a crippling fire which destroyed its top floors.

The Contributionship was fortunate in 1752, its first year, in that 143 policies were written and not one fire was recorded. In 1753, a house on Water Street became the first insured property to burn. Damage was great, but Franklin was happy to report in the Gazette that damages were to be immediately repaired without cost to the owner. Cost for repair totaled 154 pounds, nearly a third of the Society's assets. Each member had five shillings threepence per pound of deposit deducted to pay for the fire.

Over time The Contributionship's assets grew and they invested their money in various ways. They wrote mortgages and invested in stocks and bonds. They donated money to the volunteer fire companies who responded to structures insured by The Contributionship. Though volunteer fire brigades responded to all fires, they had more compelling reason to fight fires at buildings bearing The Contributionship's hand-in-hand fire mark. These fire marks served several functions. They indicated to fire companies that The Contributionship would reward them for a job well done. Often, firefighters were members of The Contributionship. The less damage to a building, the less deducted from their own premiums. However, if a house was uninsured, the fire would be put out regardless, despite what some modern historians and interpreters may claim. In any case, fire brigades would usually bill the uninsured householder or an insurance company with properties nearby to seek payment for their fine work in battling the blaze.
Take note of the last paragraph. Fires were put out, regardless of the status of the insurance. Quite sensible. People without insurance were billed afterward. So, it seems that though things may have been done differently in London, in early Philadelphia, at least, fires were not allowed to burn (as was the nonsensical case in Tennessee.)
Image
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think a lot of the problem might revolve around questions of local culture and context. In a city like early Philadelphia or early Victorian London, buildings might well be packed more closely, and would definitely be more fire-prone; this forced the local fire departments to respond to all fires in a way that the Obion County firefighters could avoid. And there may also have been a cultural aspect, an innate aversion to 'fiddling while Rome burns' on the part of the decision-makers running those early departments that isn't in place in modern America, or is not present reliably.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28782
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Broomstick »

Also keep in mind that early American structures were almost exclusively wood, that being the abundant resource. One reason for the Chicago Fire of 1871 being so extensive was that almost everything in the city was wood, including the "pavement" on streets (wood cobbles). So if your neighbor's house was burning yours soon would be, too, if nothing was done.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
JCady
Padawan Learner
Posts: 384
Joined: 2007-11-22 02:37pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Contact:

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by JCady »

I have to strongly disagree with what most people here have been saying. The city fire department is already going out of its way to be a good neighbor by offering fire protection coverage to individual property owners for a token fee which does not even begin to recoup the expenses of even a single callout. When a homeowner choses to throw that generosity back in their face by refusing to pay the fee, they have no legal or ethical obligation whatsoever to lift a finger. Especially considering that the homeowner in question is pretty certain to be the sort of ungrateful bastard who would turn around and sue the fire department for trespassing and/or damaging his property if they did help.
Lord of the Abyss
Village Idiot
Posts: 4046
Joined: 2005-06-15 12:21am
Location: The Abyss

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

JCady wrote: When a homeowner choses to throw that generosity back in their face by refusing to pay the fee, they have no legal or ethical obligation whatsoever to lift a finger.
Of course they have an ethical obligation; by inaction they put other people in danger. Even assuming there was no one in the burning building, fire doesn't magically stop at property lines according to who pays. Stop it now, and sort out who owes what later.
JCady wrote: Especially considering that the homeowner in question is pretty certain to be the sort of ungrateful bastard who would turn around and sue the fire department for trespassing and/or damaging his property if they did help.
What, and you don't think sitting back and doing nothing will lead to lawsuits? For that matter, if retaliation is what you are concerned about, standing by and doing nothing is far more likely to lead to the scenario where an enraged now-homeless guy with a gun walks into their fire department and starts shooting.
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Simon_Jester »

JCady wrote:I have to strongly disagree with what most people here have been saying. The city fire department is already going out of its way to be a good neighbor by offering fire protection coverage to individual property owners for a token fee which does not even begin to recoup the expenses of even a single callout. When a homeowner choses to throw that generosity back in their face by refusing to pay the fee, they have no legal or ethical obligation whatsoever to lift a finger. Especially considering that the homeowner in question is pretty certain to be the sort of ungrateful bastard who would turn around and sue the fire department for trespassing and/or damaging his property if they did help.
...what evidence is there that this homeowner is such a bastard again?

In this case, the "token" fee is being charged to a large number of homeowners; like any form of insurance, your premium in a given year wouldn't cover the costs of taking care of you, but that of the dozens of others who don't need treatment that year will.

As for the general premise, I submit that while I wouldn't mind if the fire department simply did not send firefighters to answer calls outside the city limits, I do mind if they actually drive out there and then refuse to fight the fire, standing there while someone's house burns down and they have firefighting equipment ready to hand. At that point, they've already incurred much of their overall costs.

It's as if I were watching you drown and not doing anything despite being an Olympic swimmer- it's disgusting behavior for someone who is RIGHT THERE and who is in an excellent position to help.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Lonestar »

Simon_Jester wrote:
As for the general premise, I submit that while I wouldn't mind if the fire department simply did not send firefighters to answer calls outside the city limits, I do mind if they actually drive out there and then refuse to fight the fire, standing there while someone's house burns down and they have firefighting equipment ready to hand. At that point, they've already incurred much of their overall costs.

It's as if I were watching you drown and not doing anything despite being an Olympic swimmer- it's disgusting behavior for someone who is RIGHT THERE and who is in an excellent position to help.
My understanding is that the FD didn't drive out until the property of a paying customer caught fire.



I'll tell you all one thing: Dollars to donuts that this brain surgeon either didn't have homeowners insurance(While I have never heard of such a fee before, now that I have I'm sure that there are several other jurisdictions that have similar rules and so the big insurance providers would likely demand proof of purchase) or if he did have insurance the insurance provider would probably tell him to go fuck off.

(as has been pointed out to me elsewhere)
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
Oni Koneko Damien
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3852
Joined: 2004-03-10 07:23pm
Location: Yar Yar Hump Hump!
Contact:

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:What, and you don't think sitting back and doing nothing will lead to lawsuits? For that matter, if retaliation is what you are concerned about, standing by and doing nothing is far more likely to lead to the scenario where an enraged now-homeless guy with a gun walks into their fire department and starts shooting.
According to the story, shortly after this incident somebody went to the fire station and assaulted one of the firemen. Protection rackets work only if you have guys with guns on your side dissuading your increasingly desperate victims from rash action. Unless we want to incur the additional expense of having police escort with all firefighters at all times, this just isn't going to work here.
Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee
User avatar
JCady
Padawan Learner
Posts: 384
Joined: 2007-11-22 02:37pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Contact:

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by JCady »

The normal situation in the United States is that counties which do not have a county fire department -- typically sparsely populated rural counties in which fires are rare -- will contract with the nearest city fire department to provide fire response service throughout the county.

Obion County chose not to do so, leaving its residents with no fire coverage whatsoever. The South Fulton Fire Department stepped in to fill the void by offering subscription fire service to residents of Obion County for a very reasonable fixed fee of $75 per year. The homeowner in question states that he knowingly rejected this arrangement, but nonetheless expected South Fulton FD to respond to his 911 call and save his property. One of the homeowner's sons later physically assaulted the fire chief in retaliation.
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Serafina »

Well, that's a point:
Why was there no fire department responsible for that location (county or whatever)?
If it was outsourced (understandable in a small community), then the local government screwed up - firefighting is a service for the entire communities benefit andd should NOT be the responsiblity of individual homeowners.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Lonestar »

Serafina wrote:Well, that's a point:
Why was there no fire department responsible for that location (county or whatever)?
If it was outsourced (understandable in a small community), then the local government screwed up - firefighting is a service for the entire communities benefit andd should NOT be the responsiblity of individual homeowners.
Because the fire department was financed through municipal property taxes, not the county, and these people lived outside of the city boundries. It's most likely that there are not sufficient numbers of residents in unincorporated areas of the county to justify the expense, in the county's mind. That the FD arrived when a neighbor's field caught fire screams rural farmland to me.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
User avatar
JCady
Padawan Learner
Posts: 384
Joined: 2007-11-22 02:37pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Contact:

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by JCady »

Serafina wrote:Well, that's a point:
Why was there no fire department responsible for that location (county or whatever)?
If it was outsourced (understandable in a small community), then the local government screwed up - firefighting is a service for the entire communities benefit andd should NOT be the responsiblity of individual homeowners.
It is sort of outsourced -- the eight municipal fire departments within the county each have an assigned coverage sector, but because the county doesn't want to pay the municipal departments to respond outside their actual jurisdictions, it's up to the fire department how it wants to handle payment. Three departments are on a subscription model ($50, $75, and $75 per year respectively), while the other five are on an "as needed" model ($500 per call) -- however, all five of the as-needed departments are in serious financial trouble because more than half of county residents who call for fire department service refuse to pay for it afterwards.
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Phantasee »

Don't bother Lonestar, people don't know how to read anymore. I've been saying the same thing.

PS It's not a protection racket.
XXXI
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28782
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Broomstick »

Serafina wrote:Well, that's a point:
Why was there no fire department responsible for that location (county or whatever)?
If it was outsourced (understandable in a small community), then the local government screwed up - firefighting is a service for the entire communities benefit andd should NOT be the responsiblity of individual homeowners.
Apparently that is not the case in Obion county, Tennessee outside of urban areas.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Kanastrous
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6464
Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Kanastrous »

One of those wonderful stories in which there is no one with whom to sympathize.

Homeowner figured he'd save himself the fees until he "really needed" the service. Fuck him, he was offered a vital service for a nominal fee and fully independently made the conscious and deliberate choice to reject it. Doubtless expecting that he'd still be allowed to benefit from it despite ignoring the terms-of service. Fuck him, again. I might as well decide that, say, ADT Security owes it to me, to come check out my house if an alarm sounds, even though I chose not to pay them for their services. Hey, guys, I'll pay you extra if - even though we have no contract or agreement - you come, NOW! Guys...?...hmm, dial tone...

*And* fuck the FD concerned; fires spread and the fact that a given citizen failed to pay the fees is small comfort if, as has been observed, you find bones in the ashes the next morning, or if the properties of people who *are* paying their fees are endangered by the full involvement of the property that's not covered. Come out, put out his fire, and then hit him with a sufficiently large fee that he'll have to sell and move, to pay it. Problem solved.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
User avatar
JCady
Padawan Learner
Posts: 384
Joined: 2007-11-22 02:37pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Contact:

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by JCady »

Kanastrous wrote:*And* fuck the FD concerned; fires spread and the fact that a given citizen failed to pay the fees is small comfort if, as has been observed, you find bones in the ashes the next morning, or if the properties of people who *are* paying their fees are endangered by the full involvement of the property that's not covered.
Did you not bother to read what I posted? South Fulton Fire Department policy is that they will intervene regardless of payment if lives are in danger.
Come out, put out his fire, and then hit him with a sufficiently large fee that he'll have to sell and move, to pay it. Problem solved.
Except for the part where by federal law they are only allowed to charge a statutory maximum of $500 per call and they cannot compel people to pay. The five departments in the county that *do* charge on a per-call basis are all going bankrupt because of this and are currently planning to switch to the same "subscription only" model that South Fulton uses.
Kanastrous
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6464
Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Kanastrous »

The trouble with the 'if lives are in danger' part is that it presupposes that in any given case the FD will have total certitude - totally accurate certitude - not only that no un-noticed or unaccounted-for person is still endangered *and* that the spread of the fire will not happen in such as way as to endanger people who would not have been endangered had the fire been brought under control ASAP. There's no angle from which permitting a house fire to burn without intervention is a smart one (fires set for training purposes under controlled conditions being the obvious exception).
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
User avatar
JCady
Padawan Learner
Posts: 384
Joined: 2007-11-22 02:37pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Contact:

Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by JCady »

Kanastrous wrote:The trouble with the 'if lives are in danger' part is that it presupposes that in any given case the FD will have total certitude - totally accurate certitude - not only that no un-noticed or unaccounted-for person is still endangered *and* that the spread of the fire will not happen in such as way as to endanger people who would not have been endangered had the fire been brought under control ASAP. There's no angle from which permitting a house fire to burn without intervention is a smart one (fires set for training purposes under controlled conditions being the obvious exception).
The fact remains that the South Fulton Fire Department has zero legal responsibility to respond outside the borders of South Fulton. The home in question was under the jurisdiction of the Obion County Fire Department, which was formally established in 1987 but has always had zero fire stations, zero fire trucks, and zero firefighters because the county refuses to give it any budget allocation.
Post Reply