Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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[url=http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... ad-at-91/1]USA Today"]
The USA Today wrote: Dead at 91
TV evangelist Oral Roberts has died at age 91, a day after he fell at his California home and was hospitalized.

Roberts founded Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Okla., in 1963 and served as its president until 1993.

"Oral Roberts was the greatest man of God I've ever known," said his son, Richard Roberts, according to Tulsa TV station KTUL. "A modern-day apostle of the healing ministry, an author, educator, evangelist, prophet, and innovator, he was the only man of his generation to build a worldwide ministry, an accredited university, and a medical school."
I'll note is University is home to such great minds as... Michele Bachmann, Michael Graham and of course Ned Flanders.

A little bit better profile has been done by Time
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From wrinkled bills to neatly creased $100 checks, donations poured into the Rev. Oral Roberts' sleek Tulsa headquarters last week. Cash and pledges have arrived in a steady stream over the past fortnight, at a rate of more than $160,000 each day. That was the good news. But there was also the bad news: a television channel in Washington dumped two January episodes of his 30-minute telecast. Seven other outlets, including stations in Tulsa and Dallas, are now monitoring each of the United Methodist preacher's syndicated shows to see if they fit the stations' standards. The Tulsa Tribune, a somewhat sympathetic observer of Roberts over the years, declared in an editorial headline, COME OFF IT, ORAL.

The source of all the fuss was a Jan. 4 Roberts program. Surrounded by white-coated students, the evangelist launched into an appeal for money so that graduates of the medical school of Oral Roberts University, his 22-year- old institution in Tulsa, can serve in overseas missions. Viewers were urged to send at least $100 apiece during the next three months to help reach a goal of $4.5 million. Then Roberts dropped a bombshell. If donations fell short, said the 68-year-old preacher, God would strike him down. "I'm asking you to help extend my life," he said. "We're at the point where God could call Oral Roberts home in March."

Colleagues denied that Roberts had any health problems, and he repeated the give-now-or-else plea on his show last week. It was reinforced by his evangelist son Richard, 38, in a mass mailing that contained an entreaty for cash. Wrote Richard: "Let's not let this be my dad's last BIRTHDAY!"

Oral Roberts has long aroused controversy, not only during his 21 years as a touring faith healer but in his subsequent career as university president and medical administrator. The death revelation, however, was certainly the oddest of the messages from on high that Roberts has reported since he launched his $250 million City of Faith Medical and Research Center in 1977. The first revelation was God's command to build the lavish complex, detailing such matters as a design with three towers of 20, 30 and 60 stories. In the next astonishing disclosure, Jesus appeared, standing "some 900 feet tall," and directed Roberts to persevere. As the need for money mounted, God ordered Roberts to require $240 from each supporter, promising "breakthroughs" on cancer in return. The visions produced about $10 million in gifts.

Aides to the evangelist denied that Roberts' sensational new appeal indicated financial problems in his spiritual empire. The ultramodern buildings of the 4,650-student university and adjacent medical complex are largely debt free, but obtaining enough income to keep the enterprises operating has proved difficult. The Tulsa Tribune reported last year that the voracious money demands of the hospital, clinic and research center were nearly twice Roberts' projections in the first year and continue to strip the university endowment and squeeze faculty income.

The steep costs have been worsened by the low daily average of 125 patients in the 294-bed hospital. A Roberts aide says the hospital (excluding the research center and clinic) operated in the black for the first time last month. To cut costs, 140 of the 1,000 medical-center staffers were laid off, the dental school was closed, and the law school was given to Evangelist Pat Robertson's CBN University.

By some published accounts, contributions plummeted from $88 million in 1980 to $55 million last year. Another index of trouble: Arbitron ratings indicate that Oral Roberts' weekly TV congregation has dropped by more than half since 1977, though that is partly counterbalanced by an added daily show with his son as host.

Roberts' flamboyant fund raising has aroused criticism from secular commentators. A Tulsa radio personality joshed last week that a "900-foot Lassie" had told him to complete a 60-story dog-and-cat hospital and that noncontributors would die. More soberly, the Tribune editorial informed Roberts that his portrayal of a "petty, vengeful or idiotic God" is "close to sacrilege." General Manager David Lane of WFAA-TV, the offended Dallas station, stated that Oral's pitch "violates everything I believe in from a moral standpoint." But a Roberts aide, Jan Dargatz, explained that God has "always given Oral impossible goals, and if Oral can't get it done, there's a possibility of sacrifice in the process." A concerned engineering student at Oral Roberts University expressed a different theology. Said he: "God is greater than that. He doesn't need to use cheap tricks."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0ZnRe2XNQ

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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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As a historian of fundamentalism, evangelicalism, the creationist movement, the Christian and homeschool movements, and the religious right, it bothers me when people like this die. It means I can't ever do oral history interviews with them!

Second, I've always thought that religion is the best money making scheme EVER. The church I grew up in told its members that they should donate 10% of their incomes to the church off the top and not worry about whether they would have enough money left to make ends meet. Because, if they tithed 10% to God and expected Him to take care of them, He would. So, give first, worry later. Brilliant.

And finally, who the hell names their kid "Oral"?!?
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Wait, Oral fleeced his flock for that much money and God struck him dead anyway? God comes across as a drug Lord here, smoking Oral Roberts for not paying up his cut on the bricks of religion he was peddlin' for the Lord.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Liberty Ferall wrote:The church I grew up in told its members that they should donate 10% of their incomes to the church off the top and not worry about whether they would have enough money left to make ends meet. Because, if they tithed 10% to God and expected Him to take care of them, He would. So, give first, worry later. Brilliant.
Well, the Mormons, at least, have an internal welfare system that actually does provide food and supplies for member families that are in need. I don't know what the receiving families have to give back, if not their own 10% tithes. Probably have to do work for free at the church or something?
And finally, who the hell names their kid "Oral"?!?
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Gil Hamilton wrote:Wait, Oral fleeced his flock for that much money and God struck him dead anyway? God comes across as a drug Lord here, smoking Oral Roberts for not paying up his cut on the bricks of religion he was peddlin' for the Lord.

Oh, he got his $4.5 million and then some, from what I recall. The Time piece was from years and years ago. Roberts made it to 91, which is certainly impressive enough as that goes. To paraphrase an anecdotal and probably made up remark about the Cardinal Richelieu, Mr. Roberts has much to answer for if there is a God, and if not, he lived a long and successful life (defrauding other people).
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Coyote wrote: Well, the Mormons, at least, have an internal welfare system that actually does provide food and supplies for member families that are in need. I don't know what the receiving families have to give back, if not their own 10% tithes. Probably have to do work for free at the church or something?
If you're a needy family in the LDS church (like mine is right now) you go in to the Bishop and say "We need help". They sit down w/ you and you tell 'em what you need and they try to accommodate. They won't pay off credit cards or outstanding debts, but they will help w/ bills that come up. I've had the church pay my car insurance and a couple of surprise medical bills that came up the last time I was unemployed, but this time all we need is food which they were happy to help with. We can get 2-weeks worth at a time, and aren't asked for anything other than to continue remaining faithful in the church. I suppose if we were less-active members they might ask for some contribution of service, but we're already doing so much w/ volunteering I don't expect to be asked. It's a great welfare system that helps thousands around the world, LDS and non-LDS alike.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

Post by mr friendly guy »

Liberty Ferall wrote:
And finally, who the hell names their kid "Oral"?!?
I could be wrong, but from memory Oral was not his birth name. He only changed it to that later, presumably because he was a good speaker.

IIRC his birth name was the oh so much better Granville Roberts.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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I've always hoped there was a "special" place for those who preyed on others.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Yona wrote:I've always hoped there was a "special" place for those who preyed on others.
Ideally it'd be called prison.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Coyote wrote:Well, the Mormons, at least, have an internal welfare system that actually does provide food and supplies for member families that are in need. I don't know what the receiving families have to give back, if not their own 10% tithes. Probably have to do work for free at the church or something?
They're asked to volunteer at the multiple canneries, Bishop's Storehouses (where food and necessities are distributed), Deseret Industries thrift stores (where many other things like furniture, clothing, etc are distributed), and other charitable enterprises operated by the Mormon church. IMHO, a fairly reasonable price to pay in return for as much food, clothing, and other things you need on a monthly basis.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Wicked Pilot wrote:
Yona wrote:I've always hoped there was a "special" place for those who preyed on others.
Ideally it'd be called prison.
Nah that's to easy especially since people like him would most likely get a nice cushy jail.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Liberty Ferall wrote:Second, I've always thought that religion is the best money making scheme EVER. The church I grew up in told its members that they should donate 10% of their incomes to the church off the top and not worry about whether they would have enough money left to make ends meet. Because, if they tithed 10% to God and expected Him to take care of them, He would. So, give first, worry later. Brilliant.
I predict that in not too long, someone in this thread will be quoting L. Ron Hubbard.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Kodiak wrote:
Coyote wrote:Well, the Mormons, at least, have an internal welfare system that actually does provide food and supplies for member families that are in need. I don't know what the receiving families have to give back, if not their own 10% tithes. Probably have to do work for free at the church or something?
If you're a needy family in the LDS church (like mine is right now) you go in to the Bishop and say "We need help". They sit down w/ you and you tell 'em what you need and they try to accommodate. They won't pay off credit cards or outstanding debts, but they will help w/ bills that come up. I've had the church pay my car insurance and a couple of surprise medical bills that came up the last time I was unemployed, but this time all we need is food which they were happy to help with. We can get 2-weeks worth at a time, and aren't asked for anything other than to continue remaining faithful in the church. I suppose if we were less-active members they might ask for some contribution of service, but we're already doing so much w/ volunteering I don't expect to be asked. It's a great welfare system that helps thousands around the world, LDS and non-LDS alike.
I'd rather live in a country that has a real social welfare system, health benefits, etc. Churches can all too easily decide to restrict their charity to those that they deem "deserving", which can be as broad or narrow a group as any particular church wants it to be.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Darth Wong wrote:I'd rather live in a country that has a real social welfare system, health benefits, etc. Churches can all too easily decide to restrict their charity to those that they deem "deserving", which can be as broad or narrow a group as any particular church wants it to be.
I completely agree with you, but until I live in such a nation I'm happy to have the Church's assistance available to me and my family.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

Post by Liberty »

Darth Wong wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
Coyote wrote:Well, the Mormons, at least, have an internal welfare system that actually does provide food and supplies for member families that are in need. I don't know what the receiving families have to give back, if not their own 10% tithes. Probably have to do work for free at the church or something?
If you're a needy family in the LDS church (like mine is right now) you go in to the Bishop and say "We need help". They sit down w/ you and you tell 'em what you need and they try to accommodate. They won't pay off credit cards or outstanding debts, but they will help w/ bills that come up. I've had the church pay my car insurance and a couple of surprise medical bills that came up the last time I was unemployed, but this time all we need is food which they were happy to help with. We can get 2-weeks worth at a time, and aren't asked for anything other than to continue remaining faithful in the church. I suppose if we were less-active members they might ask for some contribution of service, but we're already doing so much w/ volunteering I don't expect to be asked. It's a great welfare system that helps thousands around the world, LDS and non-LDS alike.
I'd rather live in a country that has a real social welfare system, health benefits, etc. Churches can all too easily decide to restrict their charity to those that they deem "deserving", which can be as broad or narrow a group as any particular church wants it to be.
I hate to break it to you, but studies have found that government services are actually not the most effective. In order of most to least effective, it's congregationally-based services, faith-based and secular not for profit service providers, and lastly, government aid.

Source: Saving America: Faith Based Services and the Future of Civil Society, by Robert Wuthnow, prof. of Sociology at Princeton
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7703.html
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Can you give us some details on how he came to that conclusion?

And does he compare the effectiveness of services in countries other than America, because it's one thing to say "faith-based charities are more effective in America" and another to say "faith based charities are more effective". Given how dismal America's social welfare system seems to be, I could accept that faith based charities are more effective there, but if they were going up against a properly implemented welfare system, I'm not entirely sure they could compete - if not through efficiency then through increased availability of resources and the fact that the government must provide to everyone, while churches are under no obligation to provide to whoever they deem to be undesirables.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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I read this book for a graduate class this past summer, and took 22 pages of notes. To see these notes, click on this link: http://www.box.net/shared/0dj1uu8cqd

He only looks at the United States (hence the title, Saving America).

Basically, he argues that congregations are the most effective means of providing social services because they develop personal relationships with people and can better assess their needs and situations. Second comes not for profits, and he says that there is no difference between secular and faith-based not for profits. Third comes government services such as welfare, which are seen as impersonal and overly bureaucratic. The following chart is the most telling: (I'm having surlethe post the chart as I'm not allowed to post images yet)
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Here's the chart:
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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The poll shown in the chart was from a Lehigh Valley Survey, 2002.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Could it simply be that government services are less effective since they have to cover everyone which requires more overhead and costs to meet the needs of higher risk and cost individuals?
Basically, he argues that congregations are the most effective means of providing social services because they develop personal relationships with people and can better assess their needs and situations.
So they essentially have no overhead and since this is just redistribution there are no economies of scale. Doesn't that mean you could get the equivalent by having charities run by local community centers and the like?
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Liberty Ferall wrote:I hate to break it to you, but studies have found that government services are actually not the most effective.
Show me how churches have stepped in to completely fill the universal health care gap in America. Oh right, they haven't. Studies like this simply choose to measure "effective" by whichever standards happen to favour churches. If we measure it in terms of reliability and universality, churches have an abysmal record. Donations drop off during recessions when they are most needed, access is uneven across the country at best, some churches consciously deny services to certain classes of people, etc.
In order of most to least effective, it's congregationally-based services, faith-based and secular not for profit service providers, and lastly, government aid.

Source: Saving America: Faith Based Services and the Future of Civil Society, by Robert Wuthnow, prof. of Sociology at Princeton
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7703.html
Again, define "effective". Especially since a lot of community-based charity is incestuous; ie- people donate money to causes which actually indirectly help themselves. Moreover, ignoring the scale issue is completely dishonest; if you had churches trying to administer massive nation-wide programs, you can rest assured that they would fuck it up beyond belief, and would probably use these programs to enforce a social agenda.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

Post by Liberty »

Darth Wong wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:I hate to break it to you, but studies have found that government services are actually not the most effective.
Show me how churches have stepped in to completely fill the universal health care gap in America. Oh right, they haven't. Studies like this simply choose to measure "effective" by whichever standards happen to favour churches. If we measure it in terms of reliability and universality, churches have an abysmal record. Donations drop off during recessions when they are most needed, access is uneven across the country at best, some churches consciously deny services to certain classes of people, etc.
Interesting point. I am in favor of a universal health care system, for the record. The point here is that in the services they do provide, churches are more effective. I think that this is something to be borne in mind when setting up a government safety net/welfare system. If we can learn why congregationally-based services are most effective and learn from this, applying it to government run services, we can all benefit.

Also, I do have a problem with the way in which churches can enforce orthodoxy by denying services to those who don't agree with their beliefs. This is a problem.
Darth Wong wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:In order of most to least effective, it's congregationally-based services, faith-based and secular not for profit service providers, and lastly, government aid.

Source: Saving America: Faith Based Services and the Future of Civil Society, by Robert Wuthnow, prof. of Sociology at Princeton
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7703.html
Again, define "effective". Especially since a lot of community-based charity is incestuous; ie- people donate money to causes which actually indirectly help themselves. Moreover, ignoring the scale issue is completely dishonest; if you had churches trying to administer massive nation-wide programs, you can rest assured that they would fuck it up beyond belief, and would probably use these programs to enforce a social agenda.
See the chart - it shows that "effective" in this case was measured by the survey respondents - how "how effective was the organization (church, welfare, whatever) that you contact in meeting your need?"
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Liberty Ferall wrote:See the chart - it shows that "effective" in this case was measured by the survey respondents - how "how effective was the organization (church, welfare, whatever) that you contact in meeting your need?"
In other words, the criteria were completely subjective, not objective.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

Post by Liberty »

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:See the chart - it shows that "effective" in this case was measured by the survey respondents - how "how effective was the organization (church, welfare, whatever) that you contact in meeting your need?"
In other words, the criteria were completely subjective, not objective.
Yes, I suppose so. But realize that the book has many other charts and numbers - it contains a lot of statistics. My notes include the highlights, often included directly from the text.
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Re: Oral Roberts of ORU is dead

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Question: If people are generally satisfied by a system, then isn't it working for them? How would one objectively measure the benefit derived from a particular welfare system, anyway?
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