Obama's Cabinet & Cabinet level positions

[RedImperator]

There could potentially be a Constitutional crisis if Bill Clinton was SoS and we got all the way down to him. However, I'm pretty sure if it went to SCOTUS, they'd rule that the intent of the 22nd is to prohibit anyone from serving two terms, period (though Scalia would rule that intent doesn't matter, and if Congress actually wanted that, they should have been more careful in their wording). At any rate, we've had people ineligible for the presidency as SoS before--Henry Kissinger served under Nixon and Ford, and he was a naturalized citizen. In that case, you just skip over the SoS (I think Defense is next in line). On the other hand, in a crisis that was bad enough to take out the President, the Vice-President, the Speaker of the House, and the President Pro-Tem of the Senate, odds are that 1) either SCOTUS wouldn't exist or there wouldn't be time to consult them, and 2) having a former President resume the role would probably be a good idea anyway.

[xerex]

There is a very complex system for degenerating power down the line, from President to Vice President to SecState, all the way down to the Governors of the States in order of their admission to the Union. .

I know about the line succession vis a vis the Cabinet but where is that bit about the governors to be found ?

[RedImperator]

There is a very complex system for degenerating power down the line, from President to Vice President to SecState, all the way down to the Governors of the States in order of their admission to the Union. .

I know about the line succession vis a vis the Cabinet but where is that bit about the governors to be found ?

Nowhere. As near as I can tell, it's an urban legend.

[Gaidin]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't Bill only be a constitutional crisis if it somehow reached him with more than two years left in the term?

[General Zod]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't Bill only be a constitutional crisis if it somehow reached him with more than two years left in the term?

It would be a constitutional crisis because pretty much the only way it could happen is a clusterfuck of epic proportions equivalent to the bombing of New Caprica.

[phongn]

Nowhere. As near as I can tell, it's an urban legend.

The relevant law is 3 USC 19 and says nothing about the state governors.

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't Bill only be a constitutional crisis if it somehow reached him with more than two years left in the term?

The wording of the 22nd Amendment is not exactly clear: it only refers to the election of a president. It says nothing on the matter of elevation to the Presidency for some other reason. Should W. Clinton face such a situation - even with less than two years in office - I think the matter would indeed have to be ruled in by SCOTUS.

It would be a constitutional crisis because pretty much the only way it could happen is a clusterfuck of epic proportions equivalent to the bombing of New Caprica.

Such an event being a "clusterfuck of epic proportions" does not make it a constitutional crisis.

[General Zod]

Such an event being a "clusterfuck of epic proportions" does not make it a constitutional crisis.

Maybe not in and of itself, but I can't see too many plausible scenarios leading to the SoS being promoted to the Presidency that don't involve a massive fuckup, which shouldn't be terribly likely without a major government breakdown.

[The Original Nex]

There is a very complex system for degenerating power down the line, from President to Vice President to SecState, all the way down to the Governors of the States in order of their admission to the Union. .

I know about the line succession vis a vis the Cabinet but where is that bit about the governors to be found ?

I think Coyote is mistakenly conflating the Order of Precedence (a ceremonial order of priority at official events, purely pomp and circumstance) with the Line of Succession, which ends at the last member of the Cabinet.

EDIT:

And Nitpick for RI: Following SecState the Line of Succession falls to the SecTreas and then the SecDef.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because as a United States Senator, Hillary Clinton is entitled to stand on the chamber floor and heap criticism upon the Obama administration for all to see. She is also, as a powerful Senator with her hands in any number of committees and subcommittees, in a position to cause untold legislative mischief and headaches for the administration.

Whereas as Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton is entitled to say "Yes, Mr. President" and carry out Obama's orders with a smile on her face. It's a case of "keep your enemies closer".

This is exactly what I was thinking. Keep the Clinton/DLC types locked up in sinecures when he can keep an eye on them and isolate them if necessary (a strong foreign affairs POTUS can leave SecState in the shadows; who remembers Wilson's SecState? and this is disregarding a strong foreign affairs VPOTUS as well in Joe Biden). Not to mention clearing the field of Clinton allows him to exercise more patronage for his progressive/Obama-type candidates for New York Senate and elsewhere.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

If he didn't have some probable conflicts of interest, I'd suggest that Obama ask Bill Clinton if he wants to be his Secretary of State. At least Bill Clinton was involved in the various diplomatic efforts during his Presidency (like the Camp David Accords, and the negotiations with the North Koreans), although he might be harder to control.

It'd also send the media into storyline-orgy mode - they'd probably spend an entire week talking to everyone in America and each other about how they were personally affected by the unprecedented step of appointing Clinton into the "Team of Rivals" (I'm really starting to hate that term).

Would that be legal? The President is limited to two terms, and as SoS Clinton would be in line to assume the Presidency. Very far down the line its true, but its a question that makes me wonder. Does the Constitution deal with this possibility, and if so, how?

No, it doesn't. Article 22 only states that no person can be elected president more than twice. Doesn't say anything about serving as President more than twice. It would require a true tragedy for the SoS to become Pres, and I presume that Clinton would serve, finish the term and step aside.

Actually you're wrong. The amendment provides that someone inheiriting the Presidency more than 2 years into the term can actually run for a second term. That is why LBJ was eligible for the Presidency in 1968, but elected not to run because of Vietnam. So if something happened to Obama more than 2 years into his term it would be theoretically possible for Clinton to serve out the remaining 1 + years and then step down. The amendment didn't really envision that, but it doesn't seem to specifically exclude it, either (someone who'd already been elected as President falling under that clause, that is). He would be skipped in the order of precedence if something happened to Obama before the two year mark, however.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think Coyote is mistakenly conflating the Order of Precedence (a ceremonial order of priority at official events, purely pomp and circumstance) with the Line of Succession, which ends at the last member of the Cabinet.

EDIT:

And Nitpick for RI: Following SecState the Line of Succession falls to the SecTreas and then the SecDef.

So if the entire Cabinet was killed or incapacitated, would that mean the US as a political entity would cease to exist, without a legitimate successor?

[General Zod]

I think Coyote is mistakenly conflating the Order of Precedence (a ceremonial order of priority at official events, purely pomp and circumstance) with the Line of Succession, which ends at the last member of the Cabinet.

EDIT:

And Nitpick for RI: Following SecState the Line of Succession falls to the SecTreas and then the SecDef.

So if the entire Cabinet was killed or incapacitated, would that mean the US as a political entity would cease to exist, without a legitimate successor?

It would most likely fall on Congress to appoint a new President until elections could be held again if anything. The President and Cabinet are only a tiny fraction of the government, albeit one of the most important ones.

[The Romulan Republic]

It would most likely fall on Congress to appoint a new President until elections could be held again if anything. The President and Cabinet are only a tiny fraction of the government, albeit one of the most important ones.

That might be the most legitimate course of action, but realistically I'd assume that if the shit hit the fan that badly, some element of the military would take control and institute martial law.

[Coyote]

Damn, I believe I may have, in fact, been thinking of the ceremonial procession of power.

[irishmick79]

Would that be legal? The President is limited to two terms, and as SoS Clinton would be in line to assume the Presidency. Very far down the line its true, but its a question that makes me wonder. Does the Constitution deal with this possibility, and if so, how?

No, it doesn't. Article 22 only states that no person can be elected president more than twice. Doesn't say anything about serving as President more than twice. It would require a true tragedy for the SoS to become Pres, and I presume that Clinton would serve, finish the term and step aside.

Actually you're wrong. The amendment provides that someone inheiriting the Presidency more than 2 years into the term can actually run for a second term. That is why LBJ was eligible for the Presidency in 1968, but elected not to run because of Vietnam. So if something happened to Obama more than 2 years into his term it would be theoretically possible for Clinton to serve out the remaining 1 + years and then step down. The amendment didn't really envision that, but it doesn't seem to specifically exclude it, either (someone who'd already been elected as President falling under that clause, that is). He would be skipped in the order of precedence if something happened to Obama before the two year mark, however.

SECTION 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

If the language of the amendment applied to SERVING as president, your interpretation would indeed be correct and I would be in error. However, the key wording is ELECTED. Since Clinton has already been elected twice, he obviously would not be allowed to run for office again. I don't see how this language would preclude him from acting as president. Since the circumstances that would lead to an SoS assuming the presidency would probably not involve an election, the 22nd amendment wouldn't necessarily act as a barrier. Unless, of course, you can find evidence that the framers intended otherwise.

[General Zod]

If the language of the amendment applied to SERVING as president, your interpretation would indeed be correct and I would be in error. However, the key wording is ELECTED. Since Clinton has already been elected twice, he obviously would not be allowed to run for office again. I don't see how this language would preclude him from acting as president. Since the circumstances that would lead to an SoS assuming the presidency would probably not involve an election, the 22nd amendment wouldn't necessarily act as a barrier. Unless, of course, you can find evidence that the framers intended otherwise.

Gerald Ford wasn't elected to the office, but he'd served out two years of Nixon's term before his first campaign as incumbent. If he'd won the campaign against Carter, there's no reason to assume he would have been eligible to run again in 1980. I'd say this sets a neat precedent against Clinton taking office again, since it's a very similar situation.

[phongn]

It would most likely fall on Congress to appoint a new President until elections could be held again if anything. The President and Cabinet are only a tiny fraction of the government, albeit one of the most important ones.

Congress would probably appoint a new Speaker of the House or President pro tempore of the Senate, at which point 3 USC 19 would kick in. As for the possibility of a disaster taking out all of Congress? Individual states could then appoint new Senators in an emergency (Representatives may require an emergency election) and that new body would select the President.

That might be the most legitimate course of action, but realistically I'd assume that if the shit hit the fan that badly, some element of the military would take control and institute martial law.

Why?

Gerald Ford wasn't elected to the office, but he'd served out two years of Nixon's term before his first campaign as incumbent. If he'd won the campaign against Carter, there's no reason to assume he would have been eligible to run again in 1980. I'd say this sets a neat precedent against Clinton taking office again, since it's a very similar situation.

No, it isn't. Gerald Ford's situation would disbar him from being elected in 1980. In the situation considered here, William Clinton would not be elected so much as elevated to the position. As mentioned before, while it's pretty clear the intent of the 22nd Amendment is to limit Presidents to ten years of office, it has not been legally tested in this unusual case. As we live in a common-law nation and there is (as far as I can tell) no prior ruling, it will almost certainly go to the courts.

[Ender]

That might be the most legitimate course of action, but realistically I'd assume that if the shit hit the fan that badly, some element of the military would take control and institute martial law.

Why?

Given the precautions usually taken to prevent a decapitation strike like that (as in, the Veep will be in an underground bunker a few states away and other members similarly spread out and protected), I think we can safely assume that anything that manages to pull it off will have to be on the order of an overwhelming military strike. At that point, most planning does call for martial law to be enacted and FEMA to kick it into high gear protecting the rest of our cities while the military follows contingency orders to strike back.

[CmdrWilkens]

It would most likely fall on Congress to appoint a new President until elections could be held again if anything. The President and Cabinet are only a tiny fraction of the government, albeit one of the most important ones.

Congress would probably appoint a new Speaker of the House or President pro tempore of the Senate, at which point 3 USC 19 would kick in. As for the possibility of a disaster taking out all of Congress? Individual states could then appoint new Senators in an emergency (Representatives may require an emergency election) and that new body would select the President.

Following along that the Senate may already be reconvenned by the states (and not even all of them, you simply have to have enough for a quorum so we only need 51). Once the Senate is reconvenned then they elect a President Pro Tempore who imemdiately gets kicked up per 3 USC 19.

Now the issue would be who does what while the states are appointing the Senators? So far as I am aware the deputy and undersecretary positions hold some power to act in place of the Cabinet level post as interim head and the same would be true amongst the upper echelons of the Military Command (paticularly so there). Those who hold the post in the interim would still have the regulatory authority of the agency which they represent only coordination would be all but impossible as no agency has precedence over another in the lack of an executive requriing co-operation.

[Kodiak]

Attorney General overtures in progress

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Clinton Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder is President-elect Barack Obama's choice for the position of attorney general, according to two prominent Democrats involved in transition matters.

Holder, who is still being vetted, has indicated he will accept the job if it is offered, the sources said.

If confirmed, Holder would be the first African-American to lead the Justice Department.

Holder, 57, co-chaired President-elect Obama's vice presidential selection process. A graduate of Columbia University and former federal prosecutor, he is a partner at the Washington law firm of Covington & Burling.

Holder first joined the Justice Department in the administration of President Jimmy Carter, assigned to the newly formed Public Integrity Section in 1976 straight out of Columbia University Law School.

President Ronald Reagan nominated him to be an associate judge at the Superior Court of the District of Columbia, where he served for five years.

He left that post to become the first African-American U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, chosen by President Bill Clinton. He served in that position until Clinton picked him to become deputy attorney general, the first African American to hold that position as well.

Four former Justice Department Democrats who worked for Holder during that time said they were pleased with the news that Holder would likely be attorney general, and all hinted that they may be willing to return to the department.

One such former Justice attorney and Holder acquaintance expressed strong support for the expected nomination.

"He's a great choice for attorney general," said the attorney, who asked not to be identified because the nomination is not yet official. "He'll be terrific."

The attorney declined to say whether he would apply to again work for Holder, but left little doubt of his interest. He said he had privately advocated for the Holder nomination.

"It's very far along," said another former Justice attorney who has professional ties to Holder and also asked for anonymity.

The Democratic attorney said he has spoken recently with Holder about the post.

He said Holder asked him, "If this were to come to pass, what are some of the things that you'd like to see done?" He said one thing he would expect under Holder would be strengthened relationships with police departments and more federal funding for local law enforcement, including more police officers.

The official also pointed to a strong, long-standing relationship between Holder and FBI Director Robert Mueller, who is expected to remain in that post. Mueller, who previously had a lengthy career in the Justice Department, returned to prosecution after a brief stint in private practice as an attorney in Holder's District of Columbia U.S. Attorney's Office, where he prosecuted homicides.

Holder pushed for Mueller to get the nod for U.S. Attorney in San Francisco when that job opened in 1998, and Mueller stayed in that position until President George W. Bush tapped him to head the FBI in 2001.

The former official also said he was confident a flap over Clinton's pardon of commodities trader Marc Rich would not be a major hurdle for Holder with a Democratic Congress.

Rich fled to Switzerland in 1983 while being prosecuted on tax evasion charges. Clinton pardoned him in 2001 just before he left office. Critics contended that Clinton issued the pardon because Rich's former wife had made substantial donations to the Democratic Party and Clinton's library.

Holder testified later before a Republican-controlled Congress and acknowledged if he had it to do over again, he would have handled it differently.

Holder has also served on numerous philanthropic boards and has won several awards and honorary degrees.

Holder's wife, Sharon Malone, is an obstetrician. The couple has three children..

This looks like both another solid choice and another first for America: First black USAG

[Natorgator]

Also going on now is some pushback for Hillary Clinton as SoS. If you ask me, it's not going to happen. Look at this:

Senator Edward M. Kennedy, who made clear that universal healthcare is his top priority when he returned to work Monday in the Senate, announced today that three working groups of the committee he heads will explore key issues.

One group, led by Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa, will work on prevention and public health. Another led by Senator Barbara Mikulski of Maryland will work on improvements in the quality of care. And the third, led by Senator Hillary Clinton of New York, will work on insurance coverage.

This was announced today. If Hillary was thinking she was going to be SoS, I doubt Kennedy would have announced it so soon.

And now Politico is saying that she might reject the offer:

Hillary Rodham Clinton isn’t certain she would accept the Secretary of State post even if Barack Obama offers it to her, several people close to the former first lady say.

Press reports that portray Clinton as willing to accept the job – once the Obama transition team vets Bill Clinton’s philanthropic and business ventures – are inaccurate, one Clinton insider told Politico.

“A lot of the speculation and reporting is out ahead of the facts here,” said the person, who requested anonymity. “She is still weighing this, independent of President Clinton's work.”

Clinton, the person said, remains deeply “torn” between the possibility of serving in Obama’s cabinet and remaining in the Senate to “help pass health care and work on a broad range of domestic issues.”

That comment jibes with what others close to Clinton have been saying since the Secretary of State chatter began last week: that Clinton is conflicted and the deal far from done, despite screaming headlines in outlets including the U.K.’s Guardian newspaper claiming the offer was made and accepted.

Most of the speculation about Clinton’s frame of mind in the last few days has been off-base, sources say, because she’s played her cards close to the vest, consulting only her husband and two or three kitchen cabinet advisers.

“We’ve gotten rid of all the other idiots,” joked one Clinton confidant, a reference to the Clinton campaign’s propensity for leaks.

The Clinton camp’s effort to downplay her interest in the post might simply reflect her need to create an alternative storyline if the deal falls apart for other reasons, including the possibility that insurmountable problems arise during the vetting process, Democrats not connected with Clinton cautioned.

Another possible motivation: Pushing back against the perception that she’s at the mercy of Obama’s team.

“Everybody wants to be perceived as being in the driver’s seat,” said a top Democratic official. “She’s no different.”

Obama isn’t likely to make a formal offer of the post to Clinton unless he’s given assurances that Bill Clinton’s global charitable foundation won’t create future conflicts of interest with foreign governments.

The Clinton Foundation has earned praise for its efforts to eradicate AIDS, malaria and poverty in Africa. But it could prove problematic if the former president continues to arrange donations from foreign countries at the same time that his wife serves as secretary of state.

Obama’s vetting team expressed similar concerns about Bill Clinton’s overseas fundraising when Hillary Clinton was briefly considered for the vice-presidency.

I for one am happy about this. I'd rather see Richardson as our new chief diplomat.

[The Original Nex]

Tom Daschle will be Health and Human Services Secretary:

Democratic officials: Daschle accepts HHS post

By KEVIN FREKING – 1 hour ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — Former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle has accepted President-elect Barack Obama's offer to be Secretary of Health and Human Services, Democratic officials said Wednesday.

The appointment has not been announced, but these officials said the job is Daschle's barring an unforeseen problem as Obama's team reviews the background of the South Dakota Democrat. One area of review will include the lobbying connections of his wife, Linda Hall Daschle, who has done representation mostly on behalf of airline-related companies over the years. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorize to discuss the matter publicly.

Daschle was a close adviser to Obama throughout the former Illinois senator's White House campaign. He recently wrote a book on his proposals to improve health care, and he is working with former Senate leaders on recommendations to improve the system.

Organizations seeking to expand health coverage were quick to praise the selection.

"Sen. Daschle has a deep commitment to securing high-quality, affordable health care for everyone in our nation," said Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA. "His new leadership position confirms that the incoming Obama administration has made health care reform a top and early priority for action in 2009."

Obama also announced several transition working group leaders, including Daschle, who will oversee the health policy working group. They include former Environmental Protection Agency administrator Carol Browner on energy and environment and former Clinton White House adviser Jim Steinberg and Obama campaign senior foreign policy adviser Susan Rice on national security.

[ArcturusMengsk]

This was announced today. If Hillary was thinking she was going to be SoS, I doubt Kennedy would have announced it so soon.

I have my own thoughts on this; chiefly, that in this situation Clinton is to Obama as Johnson was to Kennedy, being offered a position as a token display of Party unity, with the expectation that she will decline (though Johnson accepted the position of Vice-President, rather than Secretary of State, and he accepted knowing that it was Kennedy's unstated desire for him to respectfully decline, much to Jack's chagrin). I don't think this is anything more other than a fish-hook-on-a-string for the Clinton supporters and other conservative Democrats to get on-board with Obama's Administration.

[General Zod]

I have my own thoughts on this; chiefly, that in this situation Clinton is to Obama as Johnson was to Kennedy, being offered a position as a token display of Party unity, with the expectation that she will decline (though Johnson accepted the position of Vice-President, rather than Secretary of State, and he accepted knowing that it was Kennedy's unstated desire for him to respectfully decline, much to Jack's chagrin). I don't think this is anything more other than a fish-hook-on-a-string for the Clinton supporters and other conservative Democrats to get on-board with Obama's Administration.

According to the rumor mill Bill's agreed to go through vetting to help Hillary's transition into Sec State. If this is true then she might wind up accepting after all.

[Slacker]

At any rate, we've had people ineligible for the presidency as SoS before--Henry Kissinger served under Nixon and Ford, and he was a naturalized citizen. In that case, you just skip over the SoS (I think Defense is next in line).

Albright's another example, and it just 'skips' a position if the person is otherwise ineligible.