Rant on the american people.

[salm]

I regularly leave my door unlocked with no fear of burglary or anything else, and would do the same with my car if I had one. From conversations with Dahak, I got the understanding that this is not only unwise in Germany; it's actually illegal. Seems we're not the only ones scared shitless.

I neither know nor care if it´s legal since i usually leave it open or actually left open since now i live in a place where the door slames shut automatically and can´t be opened from the outside without the key.

Anyway, i´m somehow getting the impression that you´re talking about locking the door when you´re inside?

Also the whole security issiue isn´t that big here, that´s at least what i gather from several visits to the US. Safty even comes up in regular conversations, there are stupid safty disclaimers on every single thing you can imagine, like in mirrors in cars, people don´t (or can´t) go to certain places because of safty, and so on.
Gated Communities are unheard of here and burglar alarms are installed in the vast minority of places.

Mind you, i´m not saying that it´s perfect here. I just read with worries and annoyance that the sale of burglar alarms went up.

As for public transportation, it's simply impractical over the vast expanses of rural land it would have to cover. Public transportation is grand in densely populated areas, but most parts of the United States have a low population density relative to most of Europe. I would love to be able to catch a train to Evansville or Bloomington for a day, but there's not much of a way to make it work and be economical, at least if the trains/buses/what have you are to stop in small towns in between major cities. (I'm not arguing against mass transit; I think it would be an excellent alternative to highways full of individual cars, but that's one of the many, many reasons why it will take vast changes in the economy and infrastructure of the United States to make it ever happen.)

It´s not really relevant if it´s not there for political reasons or economical reasons or any other reasons. The problem is, that it´s not there.

Then there are cities like LA which is a pretty dense area with a myriad of suburbs. Why aren´t these suburbs and the main city connected with a big network of trains, trams, busses, subways and all the other stuff that makes getting around town so easy? I honestly don´t get it but to be fair LA might be a very extreme place and i don´t know what it´s like in, say, Austin, Topeka or Phoenix.

[Lord Poe]

I'm curious about something - the foreigners who complain about America, fine, go for it, I've no problem with it... although I don't think you really understand what it's like to live here unless you've actually lived here. It's not like I know what it's like to live in Europe based on a three week vacation...

You know, I've lived here all my life, and never knew what a backward shithole America was compared to the rest of the first-world countries until I got on the internet...

[Darth Wong]

Well, to put it bluntly, if you're George W. Bush, America is a fantastic place to live. If you're George T. Middle Class whose son just got leukemia, it is by far the worst first-world nation to live in.

[theski]

I'm curious about something - the foreigners who complain about America, fine, go for it, I've no problem with it... although I don't think you really understand what it's like to live here unless you've actually lived here. It's not like I know what it's like to live in Europe based on a three week vacation...

You know, I've lived here all my life, and never knew what a backward shithole America was compared to the rest of the first-world countries until I got on the internet...

Now that is damm funny..

[FSTargetDrone]

Also the whole security issiue isn´t that big here, that´s at least what i gather from several visits to the US. Safty even comes up in regular conversations, there are stupid safty disclaimers on every single thing you can imagine, like in mirrors in cars, people don´t (or can´t) go to certain places because of safty, and so on.
Gated Communities are unheard of here and burglar alarms are installed in the vast minority of places.

Not to mention idiot warnings on products. Example, "Caution, contents may be hot" on the side of a coffee cup from a store, or "Contents under pressure" on the side of a bottle of soda. Warnings on microwaveable food exhorts the user to take caution because the food is hot. You know why those are there? Lawsuits.

Anyway, like it or not, locking your doors is just the prudent thing to do in the US. I don't leave any cash at all, let alone other valuables, in sight in my car, becuase some jackass will crack into the car just to get a few bucks if he's desperate. Darth Wong mentioned local newspapers reporting crimes... I can look in my local paper and nearly every week the police report blotter mentions cars broken into so the thief can steal a handful of CDs or crap like that. It's not unusual at all.

That's not to say I won't leave my upstairs windows open at night when the weather is nice, but you really just need to use good sense. Leaving your door unlocked is just asking people to come into your place.

[Col. Crackpot]

I'm curious about something - the foreigners who complain about America, fine, go for it, I've no problem with it... although I don't think you really understand what it's like to live here unless you've actually lived here. It's not like I know what it's like to live in Europe based on a three week vacation...

You know, I've lived here all my life, and never knew what a backward shithole America was compared to the rest of the first-world countries until I got on the internet...

But the Irish home of my grandmother where they still burn shit and dirt for heat is paradise because everyone gets to rot in the same hospital ward for free.

[Darth Wong]

I'm curious about something - the foreigners who complain about America, fine, go for it, I've no problem with it... although I don't think you really understand what it's like to live here unless you've actually lived here. It's not like I know what it's like to live in Europe based on a three week vacation...

You know, I've lived here all my life, and never knew what a backward shithole America was compared to the rest of the first-world countries until I got on the internet...

How does living in the same place all your life give you particular knowledge of how America compares to other countries?

But the Irish home of my grandmother where they still burn shit and dirt for heat is paradise because everyone gets to rot in the same hospital ward for free.

Any place where they burn shit and dirt for heat is obviously not what I would consider a "first world" environment.

[kheegster]

But the Irish home of my grandmother where they still burn shit and dirt for heat is paradise because everyone gets to rot in the same hospital ward for free.

I'm not sure if that's lame sarcasm or pure stupidity. Ireland has one of the highest quality of life anywhere in the world.

[Lord Poe]

How does living in the same place all your life give you particular knowledge of how America compares to other countries?

How does relying on media sources give you particular knowledge of how America compares to other countries without living here? That's like picking up a highschool yearbook and concluding that it reflects that particular high school's student lifestyle.

[Darth Wong]

How does living in the same place all your life give you particular knowledge of how America compares to other countries?

How does relying on media sources give you particular knowledge of how America compares to other countries without living here? That's like picking up a highschool yearbook and concluding that it reflects that particular high school's student lifestyle.

I lived within three hundred feet of the other side for years, Wayne. I was totally immersed in American TV, American radio. They stocked mostly American newspapers in the local variety stores. I spent a lot of time on the other side of the border, which is not exactly a big surprise when you can walk there. It was one of those places where the border seemed like a mere formality, because people crossed back and forth without giving it a second thought. Many of my coworkers actually lived in America. Don't sell me a line of bullshit about how I only know America from "media sources". Have you ever lived in a border town?

[Frank Hipper]

Anyway... the Americans on this board complaining about how lazy, service, coddled, etc., Americans are - what are you doing that makes you so different from everybody else?

Why would someone have to be doing something different in order to voice criticism?

[kheegster]

How does relying on media sources give you particular knowledge of how America compares to other countries without living here? That's like picking up a highschool yearbook and concluding that it reflects that particular high school's student lifestyle.

I have spent 4 years studying in the UK, and have done summer jobs in the US and Australia, and am now studying in the US. I would think that gives me enough experience of these countries to make comparisons of the way of life.

[Darth Wong]

Anyway... the Americans on this board complaining about how lazy, service, coddled, etc., Americans are - what are you doing that makes you so different from everybody else?

Why would someone have to be doing something different in order to voice criticism?

In the last 5 years, we have discovered that there are myriad requirements for someone to be able to criticize America. You must live there in order to have the right to criticize, but you should also either "love it or leave it". Kind of a Catch-22; you're not allowed to criticize it unless you live there, but you're also not allowed to criticize it if you do live there. I guess that means America is just beyond criticism.

[Erik von Nein]

Okay, so there are all these things wrong with Americans. Yes, we get it. This must be the billionth time someone's made a thread like this. Now, I'm not arguing with the conclusions, but what are we, or what can we, do about it?

[theski]

Anyway... the Americans on this board complaining about how lazy, service, coddled, etc., Americans are - what are you doing that makes you so different from everybody else?

Why would someone have to be doing something different in order to voice criticism?

In the last 5 years, we have discovered that there are myriad requirements for someone to be able to criticize America. You must live there in order to have the right to criticize, but you should also either "love it or leave it". Kind of a Catch-22; you're not allowed to criticize it unless you live there, but you're also not allowed to criticize it if you do live there. I guess that means America is just beyond criticism.

Mike. I dont mind thAccurate criticism, my problem is when if we defend it we are tarred as Jingoists .. That is my beef.

[Frank Hipper]

Okay, so there are all these things wrong with Americans. Yes, we get it. This must be the billionth time someone's made a thread like this. Now, I'm not arguing with the conclusions, but what are we, or what can we, do about it?

1) Spread the word, and the word is disgust.
Spread it loudly, often, and in terms that even the cattle in the street can agree with.

2) Vote for those extraordinarily few politicians that show so much as a hint of backbone, and vote-out everyone else.

3) Stewart-Colbert '08, baby!

[Rogue 9]

I regularly leave my door unlocked with no fear of burglary or anything else, and would do the same with my car if I had one. From conversations with Dahak, I got the understanding that this is not only unwise in Germany; it's actually illegal. Seems we're not the only ones scared shitless.

I neither know nor care if it´s legal since i usually leave it open or actually left open since now i live in a place where the door slames shut automatically and can´t be opened from the outside without the key.

Anyway, i´m somehow getting the impression that you´re talking about locking the door when you´re inside?

Yes. Occasionally I'll forget, but usually it's locked when I leave. Partly my sense of security comes from living in a small town with a crime rate of near zero, and the rest comes from having a police officer live across the hall from my apartment. *Shrug*

It´s not really relevant if it´s not there for political reasons or economical reasons or any other reasons. The problem is, that it´s not there.

Then there are cities like LA which is a pretty dense area with a myriad of suburbs. Why aren´t these suburbs and the main city connected with a big network of trains, trams, busses, subways and all the other stuff that makes getting around town so easy? I honestly don´t get it but to be fair LA might be a very extreme place and i don´t know what it´s like in, say, Austin, Topeka or Phoenix.

I honestly couldn't tell you. Other than the suburban sprawl problem Mike brought up, there's no reason why cities shouldn't have mass transit.

Cities on the east coast, especially towards the north, generally do have public transportation systems, but they get less prevalent as you move west. Amtrak only makes money in the Northeast; it takes massive losses everywhere else.

[Frank Hipper]

Los Angeles had the finest mass-transit network in the world, the Big Red Line, until, literally, General Motors bought it, arbitrarily declared it obsolete in order to replace the streetcars with GM-built buses and to use a Federally funded highway system to be populated with GM cars.

GM was indicted in 1949 for conspiracy over this.

[salm]

Anyway, i´m somehow getting the impression that you´re talking about locking the door when you´re inside?

Yes. Occasionally I'll forget, but usually it's locked when I leave. Partly my sense of security comes from living in a small town with a crime rate of near zero, and the rest comes from having a police officer live across the hall from my apartment. *Shrug*

And Dahak honestly told you that he locks his door when he´s home and that this is normal???

I honestly couldn't tell you. Other than the suburban sprawl problem Mike brought up, there's no reason why cities shouldn't have mass transit.

One of my Profs told us that during his stay in Mexico City (or was it Sao Paolo?) rich people who can afford to have a car will rather take the car and be stuck in a trafic jam for 2 hours every day than take the tram which would take them to the same place in 30 minutes. He said that it wasn´t even a safty issue but an image issue. Is there something like that in the US? Are you considered something worse if you use public transport? Note that i´m taliking about places where public transport isn´t that great. I know that in NY for example the subway system is quite good and pretty much everybody uses it.

[Stofsk]

Los Angeles had the finest mass-transit network in the world, the Big Red Line, until, literally, General Motors bought it, arbitrarily declared it obsolete in order to replace the streetcars with GM-built buses and to use a Federally funded highway system to be populated with GM cars.

GM was indicted in 1949 for conspiracy over this.

I should hope so. The way you make it sound it has to be criminal.

[salm]

Los Angeles had the finest mass-transit network in the world, the Big Red Line, until, literally, General Motors bought it, arbitrarily declared it obsolete in order to replace the streetcars with GM-built buses and to use a Federally funded highway system to be populated with GM cars.

GM was indicted in 1949 for conspiracy over this.

But nothing else was done against it? I mean it seems reasonable that once the law declares that something was torn down illegaly it will be rebuilt by either the one who tore it down or at least the city.

[Spyder]

ultimately the biggest problem is the vast wellspring of pride that Americans have in their nation. That pride seems like a good thing but it tends to blind them to the country's problems because they take criticism of those problems as an attack on their country and react defensively.

As an American I see nothing wrong with having pride in America and what it has historically accomplished in a broad spectrum of things. But I take issue when that pride becomes arrogance, detrimentally affecting our views and knowledge (the lack therof in most cases) of the rest of the world.

What's the justification behind having pride in something that you haven't actually accomplished yourself?

[Frank Hipper]

Los Angeles had the finest mass-transit network in the world, the Big Red Line, until, literally, General Motors bought it, arbitrarily declared it obsolete in order to replace the streetcars with GM-built buses and to use a Federally funded highway system to be populated with GM cars.

GM was indicted in 1949 for conspiracy over this.

But nothing else was done against it? I mean it seems reasonable that once the law declares that something was torn down illegaly it will be rebuilt by either the one who tore it down or at least the city.

It wasn't torn down illegally, seeing as how they owned it, it was the manner in which it was perpetrated which is the legal issue.
General Motors, Firestone, Phillips Peroleum, and Mack Trucks were all in the suit (which involved many more cities than just LA), all found guilty of breaking anti-trust laws, and were fined five thousand dollars each, with the various corporate heads being fined one dollar each.
So, yes, something was done about it. Too bad that "something" was a joke.

[Darth Wong]

Mike. I dont mind thAccurate criticism, my problem is when if we defend it we are tarred as Jingoists .. That is my beef.

The accusation of jingoism is completely deserved if you defend America by attacking the source of the criticisms rather than showing that the criticisms themselves are untrue or otherwise flawed somehow. And that's charitable on this board since the alternative is to point out that you're engaging in ad-hominem attacks, which are logically fallacious and fucking stupid.

Like it or not, Americans are the world's biggest navel-gazers. You can make up whatever excuses you want for it, such as the fact that your media doesn't feed you outside perspectives, but at some point, choice still enters into the equation. I'm reminded of the buildup to war in Iraq, when every foreigner in the world seemed to be screaming at the Americans that they were making a mistake. And then, three years down the road, when their own politicians and media personalities start finally admitting that it was a mistake, you hear people saying "we were fooled" as if nobody had warned them. In reality, you chose to collectively ignore the voices of reason, for the simple reason that they were largely not American voices.

[salm]

What's the justification behind having pride in something that you haven't actually accomplished yourself?

Personally i don´t think there is a justification. What i find even more annoying though, is when people glorify their country for accomplishments in the past but when i comes to atrocities committed by the very same country (destruction of indians, holocaust....) the very same people will say that these things were in the past and don´t have anything to do with them.