Man does lawsuit to have 'Jerusalem, Israel' as birthplace

dr. what · Post by **dr. what** » 2006-04-12 11:55am

An 18-year-old Toronto man has launched a legal challenge against Ottawa, accusing the federal government of discrimination because it will not allow his Canadian passport to be changed to indicate that his birthplace – Jerusalem – is part of Israel.

"I feel that the government is rejecting and denying my religious belief in the significance of Jerusalem to the Jewish religion," Eliyahu Veffer wrote on his court affidavit.

Eliyahu Veffer points to the information on his passport.
Because of the conflict over control of Jerusalem between Israelis and Palestinians, immigrants to Canada who were born in Jerusalem are issued passports that have only the city listed as their birthplace, without any reference to a country. Veffer wants the birthplace on his passport to read, "Jerusalem, Israel."

The case is being heard in a federal court in Winnipeg.

Veffer, his father, a Toronto rabbi, his mother and five siblings moved to Canada about eight years ago.

"There are many other people who believe the same way," said Veffer's lawyer David Matas. "It's a matter of freedom of religion, equality, freedom of political opinion."

Matas said with the exception of Jerusalem, Canada's policy is that when a city is disputed territory, the passport applicant is allowed to choose which country to include.

But lawyers for the federal government say the status of Jerusalem has been in dispute since 1948, when the state of Israel came into existence.

They say Canada's policy is similar to other countries – to let the Israelis and Palestinians negotiate their competing claims of sovereignty over the city.

Until then, a change in Canada's policy could show favouritism to the Israeli side and prejudice a peaceful political settlement, the lawyers claim.

Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay admitted it's a complicated issue.

"We do not identify Jerusalem as being in Israel or in Palestine," he said. "That's something that has to be resolved in the context of the larger issues outstanding in the Middle East."

The federal court also heard from a coaliton called Canadians for Jerusalem, made up mostly of Muslim groups, but also including some Christians and Jews.

The group said Jerusalem is significant to all three monotheistic faiths. They say that Canada would be playing a dangerous political game if it allowed Veffer and others to identify Jerusalem as part of Israel on a passport.

"A Canadian passport, it's not a billboard to project your religion," said Mohamed Boudjenane, a spokesman for the group.

"The Canadian passport is a travel document."

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2006-04-12 12:12pm

a Zionist fuckwit wrote:""I feel that the government is rejecting and denying my religious belief in the significance of Jerusalem to the Jewish religion," Eliyahu Veffer wrote on his court affidavit.

What is it with all these religiously inspired idiots who think that what they want to be true, especially if they found their hopes on some old book or other, should trump reality?

some idiot lawyer wrote:"There are many other people who believe the same way," said Veffer's lawyer David Matas. "It's a matter of freedom of religion, equality, freedom of political opinion, that people should be able to deny objective reality and simply write whatever the hell you wish was true on legal documents"

There fixed that for him

Maybe I should sue the British government for not letting me have a passport that says I Captain Dread am a professional pirate who I was born in 1982 in Barcelona, Britain? Of course none of those facts are actually true but I really want them to be, reality and the state are clearly discriminating against me.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-04-12 01:10pm

Why exactly is it wrong to let him change that? To change from Jerusalem to Jerusalem,Israel dosn't seem like a large change.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2006-04-12 01:22pm

Ace Pace wrote:Why exactly is it wrong to let him change that? To change from Jerusalem to Jerusalem,Israel dosn't seem like a large change.

So you don't care if Jerusalem is part of Palestine or Israel?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-04-12 01:45pm

Since when is not having your country of origin on your passport a fucking religious issue? Some of these dipshits seem to enjoy doing anything to blow something grossly out of proportion and cry religious discrimination.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2006-04-12 01:58pm

Ace Pace wrote:Why exactly is it wrong to let him change that? To change from Jerusalem to Jerusalem,Israel dosn't seem like a large change.

The problem is that Canada doesn't agree that all of Jerusalem is part of Israel. At least some of it (in Canada's official view) belong's to someone other than Israel.

So Canada doesn't want to put on an official document issued by the government a standment that is contrary to Canada's offical position on the matter. And a passport is a very official piece of paper, since it basically has the government certifying that the person carrying the passport is as described. So at least from a logic standpoint, I agree with the decision. In Canada's view, Jerusalem is not part of Israel. Therefore, they will not certify that you were born in Jerusalem, Israel - you either are from Jerusalem, or Israel, not both. Whether the underlying policy makes sense is a topic I'll avoid (otherwise we are back into the I&P quagmire). The religious discrimination bit is bullshit. Canada takes this position for anyone listing Jersualem as a birthplace -Moslem, Jew, or Scientologist.

The sensitivity of passports is one reason the Canadian government has started using Minister's certificates to not issue passports to the Khadr's and a few others who have a disturbing tendency to "lose" their passports while being involved in actitivities Canada isn't that happy about.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-04-12 02:21pm

Right now, would not someone wishing to have Jerusalem, Palestine on their passport also have equal claim to do so?
For the sake of paperwork alone it's better to leave it as just Jerusalem. Ideal? Maybe not. But it's a god damn disputed zone. This guy needs to learn to live with it.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2006-04-12 09:10pm

Ace Pace wrote:Why exactly is it wrong to let him change that?

Because he wants it.

But seriously - passports are the property of the state, regardless of the state's reasoning. He should be laughed out of court.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-04-12 09:13pm

Metrion Cascade wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Why exactly is it wrong to let him change that?
Because he wants it.

But seriously - passports are the property of the state, regardless of the state's reasoning. He should be laughed out of court.

Problem is, if he is then will he accept it's because his request was silly?
No! It'll be because of RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION!

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2006-04-12 09:24pm

Cao Cao wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Why exactly is it wrong to let him change that?
Because he wants it.

But seriously - passports are the property of the state, regardless of the state's reasoning. He should be laughed out of court.
Problem is, if he is then will he accept it's because his request was silly?
No! It'll be because of RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION!

I don't think he could ever see the silliness of his request. It wouldn't be very faithful of him to change his mind like that.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2006-04-12 10:56pm

Mr Veffer sure is being oppressed. Damn you Canadians and your hate laws!

Faqa · Post by **Faqa** » 2006-04-13 07:59am

Ace, look at it this way - what if a Palestinian had wanted it to be "Jerusalem, Palestine"?

My sympathy for the man is zero. Canada has a right not to take sides. At least he's not playing the anti-Semite card.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2006-04-13 11:35am

Faqa wrote:Ace, look at it this way - what if a Palestinian had wanted it to be "Jerusalem, Palestine"?

Erm, methinks that that was sarcasm.

Just to add my $0.02 (Cdn), the guy will get laughed out of court, if it even gets that far. He has no basis on which to argue discrimination, and that's that.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-04-13 12:50pm

Plekhanov wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Why exactly is it wrong to let him change that? To change from Jerusalem to Jerusalem,Israel dosn't seem like a large change.
So you don't care if Jerusalem is part of Palestine or Israel?

Seeing as how it's not really under debate, no.
Jerusalem is a spoil of war; Israel won it fair and square; end of statement.

Whether or not it will *remain* part of Israel is debatable, but it is currently a part of the State of Israel. Heck, seeing as how there is no state of Palestine, that shouldn't even be an option - half of it was part of Jordan before the Six-Day War.

Actually, does the article mention exactly *where* in Jerusalem this guy was born? If he was born in the western part of the city, then it should most definitely be "Jerusalem, Israel"; only the eastern part of the city was captured from Jordan. West Jerusalem was held by Israel since the modern State of Israel's creation.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2006-04-13 01:11pm

Molyneux wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Why exactly is it wrong to let him change that? To change from Jerusalem to Jerusalem,Israel dosn't seem like a large change.
So you don't care if Jerusalem is part of Palestine or Israel?
Seeing as how it's not really under debate, no.

Odd then that Israeli prime ministers have been involved in talks with Palestinians about the future status of Jerusalem, that the United Nations doesn't recognise Israel’s sovereignty over it, nor do the vast majority of the worlds governments.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2006-04-13 03:22pm

Possession is 9/10 of the law. Israel is currently in control of Jerusalem.

AK_Jedi · Post by **AK_Jedi** » 2006-04-13 03:30pm

Beowulf wrote:Possession is 9/10 of the law. Israel is currently in control of Jerusalem.

So, every time the city changes hands, the government has to re-issue everybody's passports?

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2006-04-13 03:43pm

Beowulf wrote:Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Which law is this exactly?

Israel is currently in control of Jerusalem.

And the Canadian government is in control of Canada so unless Israel invades there as well the Canadian gov can recognise sovereignty and print passports as it sees fit.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-13 04:35pm

Beowulf wrote:Possession is 9/10 of the law.

'Trite Cliches' are not a logical argument.

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-04-13 05:12pm

Actually, the Canadian government is making a political statement by denying Jerusalem as a part of Israel.

The Arabic name for the same city is 'al-Quds'. There would not be a "Jerusalm, Palestine", there would be a "al-Quds, Palestine" if the situation were reveresed. If the city area does get partitioned, the Arab-Palestinian part of the city would not be known by a Jewish name, but by its Arabic one.

The issue is especially pointed because for Israel, Jerusalem is the capitol. If we were talking about a city in a disputed area-- lets say, one of the now-abandoned settlemets in Gaza-- the Canadian government could say that they are trying to skirt an issue or conflict. The Canadian government is hinting that Jerusalem's existince within the borders fo Israel is illegitimate. That is a political statement.

Faqa · Post by **Faqa** » 2006-04-13 05:41pm

WE consider it our capital. Every other country treats Tel Aviv as the capital(all the embassies, for example, are in Tel Aviv).

It's an issue on the world scale, and I see no reason why Canada should be forced to take a side.

If an Arab had asked for it to be "Al-Quds"(The Holy City, BTW), Palestine, the analogy still holds.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2006-04-13 05:41pm

Wow that's just utterly retarded regardless as to politics, because part of Jerusalem has always been part of the Israeli state.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-04-15 10:21am

Plekhanov wrote:
Molyneux wrote:
Plekhanov wrote: So you don't care if Jerusalem is part of Palestine or Israel?
Seeing as how it's not really under debate, no.
Odd then that Israeli prime ministers have been involved in talks with Palestinians about the future status of Jerusalem, that the United Nations doesn't recognise Israel’s sovereignty over it, nor do the vast majority of the worlds governments.

I wrote:Whether or not it will *remain* part of Israel is debatable

I never said that Jerusalem in its entirety will always remain part of Israel, though I personally think it should; I said that it is currently a part of the state of Israel.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Wow that's just utterly retarded regardless as to politics, because part of Jerusalem has always been part of the Israeli state.

Well, it's been part of Israel since the creation of the modern State of Israel, at least.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-04-15 11:35am

What I really want know is why he fucking cares? Oh no, it only says Jerusalem on your passport, what will you do know? Seriously, stop whining asshole. Of all the problems in the world, you choose this to get all pissy about? This is truly a sign of an affluent people: they can fling shit and throw a fit about the most mundane problems.

Besides, with this as a precedent, the Canadian government would have to reissue passports every time a city changes hands. That's a needless hassle, and half the people wouldn't even give a shit. Only people with nothing to do but sit and bitch would protest over something as retarded as this.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-04-15 11:45am

Veffer, his father, a Toronto rabbi, his mother and five siblings moved to Canada about eight years ago.

You're not from the country?

Well, then, let me say, as a Canadian, If you don't like it, GET THE FUCK OUT.

See? Canada won't recognize your precious Jerusalem as Israeli cause it doesn't want to take sides and that upsets you? Then leave. Simple as that.

Stop wasting tax dollars on what is basically political and religious asshatery grand standing