Stunning illiteracy in Alabama and Mississippi

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Post by Medicus »

Chris OFarrell wrote:You know it would be interesting to get SPSS or some statistics program to see if there is a correlation between literacy, poverty and who voted for GWB...

Ten to one there is a strong and defined relationship...
Possibly, but it might not turn out the way you are implying. Look at some of the numbers I posted above....the four states with the best overall literacy numbers were Wyoming, Alaska, Colorado, and Utah. All red states. (With Utah being perhaps the most Republican state in the country). Conversely, some of the worst literacy rates are found in Democratic strongholds such as large urban centers.

I've misplaced the link but I am certain that the final Gallup poll for the 2004 election showed Kerry winning the "High school or less" educational category by double digits. He also won the graduate degree category. Bush won the "some college/undergraduate degree" categories. (Albiet narrowly). A more personal example of this is in my mom's family...all of her siblings (9 brothers/sisters in total) have college degrees, three with grad degrees. And they were split 5/4 in 2004. All I'm trying do here is show its not as simple as you are trying to portray.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Yeashhh, people I was JOKING about GWB. God, I thought that was clear enough, I wasn't saying that only inbred stupid ass hicks voted for Bush.

Now about poverty following litereacy rates, THAT I was being serious about.
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Post by RedImperator »

Darth Wong wrote:I'm not sure how much the "ghetto district" area of a typical city brings down its scores. We don't have the same kind of urban ghetto problem in Canadian cities that you seem to have in America. I still remember accidentally getting off at the wrong exist in Detroit once. That was, without a word of exaggeration, a terrifying experience. We actually saw a goddamned chop shop at one point, seemingly operating with little concern for being caught.
The numbers are, frankly, staggering. Of course now that I need them I can't seem to locate the statistics, but some urban school districts, IIRC, experience dropout rates over 70%.
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Post by Coyote »

Elfdart wrote:There's a long history of people fleeing Dixie because of the bigotry and intolerance. Or did you think those large black populations in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Detroit, Philadelphia and Cleveland were holdovers from the massive slave plantations they had up there?
Um, you realize that there are far larger Black populations in the US South, and that Atlanta, GA, once the unofficial heart of the Confederacy, is now a majority Black city?

The schools suck because they are funded by local tax revenues. Poor hicks don't have a lot of tax revenues, because there are no good jobs to earn a decent wage to tax. I'm not sure that it is all the fat, rich, white politicians-- you know a politician would love to have a big company like Toyota land a plant in his district. Most of the politicians are probably busting ass trying to get a factory in their region, but due to the sub-standard living conditions to begin with, no corporation will move in.

At this late stage in the game, it will take an act of charity-- some larger government institution will have to upgrade a region and invest in schools beyond what the normal tax load could bear. If a company moves in with fat jobs, then the tax load can begin a self-perpetuating cycle of normal standards. The problem is convincing someone that it's worthwhile to do all this.

As long as people keep writing them off as fuckwit redneck hicks, and refuse to invest, then it will remain so. Even a redneck hick wants to better himself and his family. Why do they become insular, fundie-Christian bigots? Because they look for someone to give them free comfort (religion does that) and the look for someone to blame (foreigners, blacks, Jews, etc). Get them a shot at a decent life and education and within a couple generations the Bible-thumping will wear off and a relaxed tolerance will slowly settle. But it'll take time.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Medicus wrote:I've misplaced the link but I am certain that the final Gallup poll for the 2004 election showed Kerry winning the "High school or less" educational category by double digits. He also won the graduate degree category. Bush won the "some college/undergraduate degree" categories. (Albiet narrowly). A more personal example of this is in my mom's family...all of her siblings (9 brothers/sisters in total) have college degrees, three with grad degrees. And they were split 5/4 in 2004. All I'm trying do here is show its not as simple as you are trying to portray.
I can't find a link either, but I've heard repeatedly that studies showed Bush voters were less well educated. I've also heard repeatedly that Bush voters were more likely that Kerry voters to not know the facts about Bush, Iraq and Bush's positions.

As far as idea that Bush voters are smarter, I just can't buy that. Bush is an obvious incompetent; voting for him is a stupid act.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Medicus wrote:I've misplaced the link but I am certain that the final Gallup poll for the 2004 election showed Kerry winning the "High school or less" educational category by double digits. He also won the graduate degree category. Bush won the "some college/undergraduate degree" categories. (Albiet narrowly). A more personal example of this is in my mom's family...all of her siblings (9 brothers/sisters in total) have college degrees, three with grad degrees. And they were split 5/4 in 2004. All I'm trying do here is show its not as simple as you are trying to portray.
I think I have a "misplaced link" of my own. It shows that 89.8% of people with PhD educations in Texas voted for Fidel Castro in 2004.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

And good luck finding that link. I tried, but it appears all detailed poll data on the Gallup website requires a subscription.
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Post by Thinkmarble »

US General Exit Poll Beware, it's PDF.

Lower half of page 2 you find the data.

Drop out Bush: 49 Kery: 50
Highschool Bush: 52 Kery: 47
college graduate: Bush: 52 Kery: 46
Postgrad: Bush: 44 Kery: 55

No college degree: Bush: 53 Kery: 47
A college degree: Bush: 49 Kery: 49
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Re: Stunning illiteracy in Alabama and Mississippi

Post by Alliance SpecForceTrooper »

Darth Wong wrote:The New York and California numbers are probably skewed by the presence of large numbers of non English-speakers.
Actually...it would appear, by region, that only the US West has a larger population base that is not a native citizen in comparison to the US South according to Census 2000. The Northeast is ranked third lowest followed last by the Midwest.

Plain Text doco from Census.gov
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Post by HemlockGrey »

What states are included in the South and what are included in the West?
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Post by Alliance SpecForceTrooper »

HemlockGrey wrote:What states are included in the South and what are included in the West?
My guess the South is the entirety of the old Confederacy, possibly with the additions of Delaware, Oklahoma and West Virginia. So: Virginia, Kentucky, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas and Tennessee.

As for the West, off the top of my head: California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah.

I'll dig through the Census site and see if I can get an actual tabulation of states sometime later today.
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Post by tharkûn »

How well-correlated is this illiteracy to poverty?
Extremely well. Illiterate people tend not be able to get good jobs, move into good school districts, and have an ugly habit of passing on illiteracy.

I'm not sure how much the "ghetto district" area of a typical city brings down its scores. We don't have the same kind of urban ghetto problem in Canadian cities that you seem to have in America. I still remember accidentally getting off at the wrong exist in Detroit once. That was, without a word of exaggeration, a terrifying experience. We actually saw a goddamned chop shop at one point, seemingly operating with little concern for being caught.
Minus Detroit, the burnt out suburbs immediately adjacent, and Flint; Michigan actually has fairly good schools. I'd bet on the poverty correlation before the rural one.

Detroit's problem is that they set up busing rules, but allowed anyone who could to move just the other side of 8 mile and not be effected. Rather than take a chance that you kid would be the unlucky one sent to one of the few bad schools in Detroit (Detroit used to have very good schools), parents who could just moved a mile or two out of town and were assured their kids would attend a good school. Coupling this educated flight (of all races) with the riots and everyone who possibly could get the hell out, did. Ever since there has been a steady outward flow of people, jobs, and housing with an ever expanding wasteland at the heart of it.

Electing Coleman Young or Kwami Kilpatrick certainly hasn't helped the city either. Good leadership could help the city except the mayors tend to be corrupt; a city councilman is under FBI investigation for fraud, nepotism, possible embezzlement and election violations - and unfortunately he isn't the first; the county officials underwent FBI investigation a few years back and got into trouble over document shreadding, and not too long ago the state took over the school district by telling off the elected school board (Detroit managed to get its elected school board by ballot initiative despite bipartisan opposition in Lansing, but at least most of the incompotents and corrupt idiots from the last time aren't back).

Right now Detroit has a graduation rate of 34-44% (accurate figures are notoriously hard to get as the district has been caught fudging the numbers, right now they claim a whopping 50% graduation rate). Did I mention there is a problem with the schools graduating functional illiterates?

A philanthropist offered to donate 200 million dollars to establish charter schools outside of the city's direct control and banning the teacher's union. Nope can't have that, why would students in one of the worst districts in the friggen country do with 200 million dollars when they have the city and the teacher's union planning their McFuture? As it stands the schools are dilapidated, the teachers are the bottom of the barral in the really high crime areas, and oh the city recently plunked down for a "state of the art" speciality school for the performaing arts :roll: Now don't get me wrong I don't mind the arts, and hell if a school like that will get more kids to graduate - good thing. But shouldn't the first focus be on something with more employment potential, like say auto mechanics/bodywork or pre-egineering, or maybe just grade school literacy?

Locally the urban ghettos are just pulling down the state's literacy and education numbers - they are DESTROYING them. The redneck fundies are actually pulling up the state average here. :banghead:
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Post by sketerpot »

Darth Wong wrote:How well-correlated is this illiteracy to poverty?
Oddly enough, when census data on household income was correlated with aggregate literacy of a region, they found that the relationship wasn't statistically significant. See http://www.casas.org/lit/litdata/reder.pdf for details on how they got the literacy estimates for the whole country using just census figures and literacy tests in some sample groups. It includes some tables of which census variables were good predictors of literacy. The strongest correlation was between education and literacy, unsurprisingly.
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Post by sketerpot »

sketerpot wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:How well-correlated is this illiteracy to poverty?
Oddly enough, when census data on household income was correlated with aggregate literacy of a region, they found that the relationship wasn't statistically significant. See http://www.casas.org/lit/litdata/reder.pdf for details on how they got the literacy estimates for the whole country using just census figures and literacy tests in some sample groups.
Ghetto edit: If you want to get to the meat of it, look at Appendix A: Standardized Regression Coefficients, on page 22.
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Post by Elfdart »

Coyote wrote:
Elfdart wrote:There's a long history of people fleeing Dixie because of the bigotry and intolerance. Or did you think those large black populations in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Detroit, Philadelphia and Cleveland were holdovers from the massive slave plantations they had up there?
Um, you realize that there are far larger Black populations in the US South, and that Atlanta, GA, once the unofficial heart of the Confederacy, is now a majority Black city?
You don't say. :roll:

I mentioned those cities because their ethnic makeups show that a large number of blacks fled the South during Jim Crow. A few of the southern states were majority black during slavery and Reconstruction, yet they aren't today. Unlike the Northeast and California, there were no huge waves of European immigrants to Dixie, so the obvious conclusion is that a large number of blacks left the South. How many black people do you think lived in Detroit a century ago? It's majority black now.
The schools suck because they are funded by local tax revenues. Poor hicks don't have a lot of tax revenues, because there are no good jobs to earn a decent wage to tax.
I agree.
I'm not sure that it is all the fat, rich, white politicians-- you know a politician would love to have a big company like Toyota land a plant in his district. Most of the politicians are probably busting ass trying to get a factory in their region, but due to the sub-standard living conditions to begin with, no corporation will move in.
And those sub-standard conditions will not change since the first priority of most politicians is getting re-elected. Sure, they'd love to get businesses to move in, but

(1) They aren't about to improve the schools, roads, etc because that means raising taxes and since poverty-stricken areas don't have much to give, any tax hikes would come out of the pockets of those "fat, rich, white politicians" and their friends.

(2) In order to make sure the rednecks don't vote for the tax hike, right-wing politicians appeal to the ignorance and bigotry of the voting cracker.
At this late stage in the game, it will take an act of charity-- some larger government institution will have to upgrade a region and invest in schools beyond what the normal tax load could bear.

They tried that from Roosevelt to Johnson. It was denounced as a communist plot to get black children used to sitting in classrooms like white ones and would only cause them to be "uppity". Even worse, the EVIL federal government actually enforced the laws giving blacks equal rights, and threatened to cut Dixie off from the Treasury Teat if they didn't abide by the law. The Democrats lost the South and won't get it back. Read Made In Texas by Michael Lind for the gory details of how one state has thus been consigned to stupidity and poverty.
If a company moves in with fat jobs, then the tax load can begin a self-perpetuating cycle of normal standards. The problem is convincing someone that it's worthwhile to do all this.
Sorry peckerwoods, big companies can go to Third World countries for a lot less money next time they want cheap, superstitious and uneducated workers (Part of the resentment against Indian and Pakistani tech workers is that they are by and large better educated than many Americans).
As long as people keep writing them off as fuckwit redneck hicks, and refuse to invest, then it will remain so. Even a redneck hick wants to better himself and his family. Why do they become insular, fundie-Christian bigots? Because they look for someone to give them free comfort (religion does that) and the look for someone to blame (foreigners, blacks, Jews, etc). Get them a shot at a decent life and education and within a couple generations the Bible-thumping will wear off and a relaxed tolerance will slowly settle. But it'll take time.
How many times do you let a dog bite your hand before you decide "Fuck you, go find someone else to feed you"? FDR, Truman and Johnson wanted to put an end to the South being a Third World country supplying raw materials to the North. The Dems have paid for it ever since.

Anyway, you're putting the cart before the horse. Clay-eaters didn't turn insular because of Northern condescension. Northerners started condescending when they realized the redneck would rather be poverty-stricken than allow equal rights, science, freedom, et al.
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Post by Sporkzen »

Darth Wong wrote:
Sporkzen wrote:The fact is that the people at Toyota were pissed at how much extra work they had to do in order to get the workforce up to snuff. Your defensive bullshit doesn't change that.
If you cant read you cant pass the fucking written questions you have to answer by yourself at the initial screening. * Not multiple choice. They do the same process for training everywhere.
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Post by Cal Wright »

Sporkzen wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Sporkzen wrote:The fact is that the people at Toyota were pissed at how much extra work they had to do in order to get the workforce up to snuff. Your defensive bullshit doesn't change that.
If you cant read you cant pass the fucking written questions you have to answer by yourself at the initial screening. * Not multiple choice. They do the same process for training everywhere.
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I think your both not seeing what the other is saying.

So to Sporkzen, what he's basically saying is Toyata's management is founded on thier findings due to the point that they're screening way too many damn people that can't read enough to even take the test much less pass.

To Darth Wong, what Sporkzen is saying is if your employed at the local Toyota plant then you have to have at least basic if not advanced literacy skills to pass the test and get a job at the plant.

*clasp clasp*

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Post by Big Phil »

Chris OFarrell wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:How well-correlated is this illiteracy to poverty?
You know it would be interesting to get SPSS or some statistics program to see if there is a correlation between literacy, poverty and who voted for GWB...

Ten to one there is a strong and defined relationship...
I can tell you based on scores of research projects that I have personally managed that there is a strong causal relationship between education and income level. Going beyond that, however, is tough, because there are plenty of other possible factors.
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Post by Glocksman »

Heh...

It's not Toyota saying that they have a training problem with illiterate workers.

It's the guy that represents the Canada based 'Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association' that's saying it.

From the original article:
"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant.
Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

"The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario," Fedchun said.
If Sporkzen's comments on the use of pictorials is accurate, then Fedchun is spinning fast enough to make Karl Rove proud. :P

And let me add my $0.02 of personal experience.
Toyota has a truck plant (the Gibson County Tundra plant) here and I applied for a job when it opened.
Unless they've loosened their standards quite a bit, there is simply no goddamned way a functional illiterate could make it through the screening process, as the written tests are not the easy mulitple choice ones you find at so many places.

In fact, one of the hidden initial tests was to see if you read the instructions on the employment application closely where it said to 'PRINT' your name. If you signed your name as normal instead of printing it in block letters, they threw your app away. :lol:
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Post by Sporkzen »

We got an official statement to all employees worldwide friday about fedchun and how hes gotten Many nice little letters and repremands for that statement. :)
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Post by Darth Wong »

And I suppose the US government-sponsored NIFL report on literacy is lying too? 57% of Alabama at Level 1 or 2? One thing you're forgetting about the literacy figures is that they do not mean a person is not capable of reading at all; they mean that his reading skills are poor; poor enough to be a functional handicap.

But by all means, feel free to continue strawmandering the finding's conclusions into "can't read at all".
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Post by Alliance SpecForceTrooper »

For those that need it, breakdown of population by race in the US according to Census 2000 .pdf
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Post by Glocksman »

Darth Wong wrote: But by all means, feel free to continue strawmandering the finding's conclusions into "can't read at all".
Who the fuck is saying that?

My points are:

1: Functional illiteracy is not solely confined to the 'voting cracker' of the South. Such 'enlightened, progressive' states as California, New York, and New Jersey have rates only slightly better than Alabama's, and that's nothing to brag about.

2: Taking these figures and comparing them to the UN figures for literacy is misleading because they are measuring two different things.

3: From personal experience having taken the tests (Failing the physical is why I didn't get hired), I know that a functional illiterate couldn't pass the screening tests at Toyota, much less get hired.

4: Fedchun is hardly a disinterested neutral observer as its in his best interests to paint Ontario workers in the best light, and he's doing that by denigrating the workforce in Japanese plants elsewhere in North America. In other words, what he says should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Glocksman wrote:Who the fuck is saying that?
Sporkzen seems to be saying it, by disputing the findings of the NIFL study (which just happens to be the subject of this thread) with his personal claims.
My points are:

1: Functional illiteracy is not solely confined to the 'voting cracker' of the South. Such 'enlightened, progressive' states as California, New York, and New Jersey have rates only slightly better than Alabama's, and that's nothing to brag about.
Oh puh-lease, California has almost 10% population which openly admits to being unable to speak English well; for them to still have 10% fewer Level 1 or 2 residents than Alabama, with 0% non-English speakers (according to the Census) despite widely reported problems with their education system says a lot. Same goes for New York, which has 7% fewer Level 1/2 residents despite having 5% who openly admit to being unable to speak English properly. To ignore the "immigrant factor" is absolute bullshit and you know it; Alabama's census figures show a remarkable zero percent of their population to be recent immigrants.
2: Taking these figures and comparing them to the UN figures for literacy is misleading because they are measuring two different things.
True.
3: From personal experience having taken the tests (Failing the physical is why I didn't get hired), I know that a functional illiterate couldn't pass the screening tests at Toyota, much less get hired.
Could you please post this screening test so that we can determine that for ourselves? Or am I suppose to take your value judgement as evidence?
4: Fedchun is hardly a disinterested neutral observer as its in his best interests to paint Ontario workers in the best light, and he's doing that by denigrating the workforce in Japanese plants elsewhere in North America. In other words, what he says should be taken with a grain of salt.
And Fedchun has what to do with this particular thread, again? The topic of this thread is the NIFL literacy statistics, in case you didn't bother reading the OP.
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Post by Coyote »

Well, Elfie, all good points, you're pointing out why none of what I described can be enacted. The truth is that by now, they may well be so spiteful and/or suspicious about the "gummint's" intentions-- "turn the chilluns into Nee-Grow lovin' homo-sekshuls" that no help can be brought in.

The one exception to all this seems to be the Tennessee Valley Authority, which established a decent reputation but whethere they maintained it I dunno.

But regardless of the attitudes of those who live there, something should be done, because the idea that these folks are living a Third World existence in the USA is "not right on so many levels".
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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