NATO saved Kosovo from....western civilization!

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NATO saved Kosovo from....western civilization!

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Linka

Thousands fear as blood feuds sweep Albania
By Bojan Pancevski and Nita Hoxha in Tirana, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:39am BST 03/06/2007


Stuck in their cottage outside the northern Albanian village of Mnela, 14-year-old Flori Bardoku and his younger sisters watch suspiciously whenever anybody makes the hour-long journey up the path to their home.

The reason for their caution is understandable: while most of their trickle of visitors are villagers bearing food and gifts, they know that one day someone may come to kill them.

The four siblings and their mother have lived in fear of their lives ever since their father, Martin, killed his cousin's wife in Mnela after discovering her in bed with another man. He is serving 10 years in jail for her death, but in conservative rural Albania, justice is seldom served by courts alone. In accordance with ancient clan tradition, the murdered woman's brothers have declared a "blood feud" against Bardoku's family - which means any of his nearest and dearest can be killed in exchange.
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Bardoku's family is believed to be one of more than 20,000 in the country who live under an ever-present death sentence because of such blood feuds. After his arrest, his children had to stop going to school and can never leave their homestead, a ramshackle place with no electricity and only a half a roof. It is, in many ways, just as much a prison as their father's.

"We would like to be able to go outside to play with our friends, but we can't" said Flori. "Here we have no books or magazines to read. I want to go back to school."

By rights, medieval customs such as blood feuds should be a thing of the past. While Albania remains a clan-based society, today's younger generation are generally much more reluctant than their ancestors were to spill blood in defence of family honour. Yet recently, the problem has got much worse - after clan chiefs, in a bizarre adaptation to 21st century ways, ruled that families could "outsource" blood feuds to professional contract killers.

The ruling, last year, has seen blood feuds being pursued with far more ruthless efficiency than before, resulting in an explosion in the number of the killings. The government is desperately trying to curb the problem by setting up a database of families affected by blood feuds in an attempt to provide monitoring and protection.

"Times have changed," said Edmond Dragoti, a sociologist based in the capital, Tirana, who has studied the history of blood feuds. "We no longer see men saying proudly 'I am the avenger'; on the contrary, the executors are anonymous, hired killers."

The blood feuds are regulated by a set of harsh tribal laws called the Kanun - The Code - drafted by Lek Dukagjini, a feudal lord who fought against the Ottoman invaders in the 15th century. It served as the country's constitution for centuries and was upheld by the council of elders, a tribal legislative body consisting of the oldest males from prominent families of each village or region.

The Kanun was banned during the totalitarian rule of the Stalinist dictator Enver Hoxha, whose hard-line communist regime held an iron grip on the country until 1991. But during the chaos that followed the fall of communism, it was reinstated as a way of dealing with disputes. The councils of elders were re-established and now exist parallel to state institutions. In some conservative rural areas, where distrust of the police lingers, the councils' pronouncements effectively outweigh those of government.

Since the decision was made in mid-2006, the number of feud-related killings has doubled, confirming the government's suspicions that people find it far easier to hire a hit man than to commit a murder themselves.

According to the National Reconciliation Committee (NRC), a government body that deals with blood feuds, a total of 78 people died as a result of them in 2006. The real figure may be much higher, as many murders are not reported as blood feud killings, or not reported at all.

The new freedom to hire contract killers has spread to all Albanian-populated areas, including the western part of neighbouring Macedonia, Kosovo and southern Serbia, where the number of killings has also risen.

Many families facing potential retribution hide their children away. Adults in fear of assassination often carry weapons as they go about their daily business.

Gjin Marku, the chairman of the NRC, claims that today's contracted-out vendettas have little in common with the spirit of the Kanun.

"Some of these new brutal forms of revenge include the execution of the victim and his entire family, the killing of children younger than 18, as well as planting explosives," he said. In the past, he added, only single women or lone mothers were allowed to use contract killers, when there were no male members of the family left.

Blood feud retaliations are severely penalised by Albanian law, but prosecutors often face a lack of co-operation from traditional communities that prefer to adhere to the ancient code.

As an alternative, the government's new proposals recommend establishing a structure based on close collaboration between local leaders and police.

Mr Dragoti said the situation was made worse by the abundance of unlicensed weapons among the population, dating back to the 1997 meltdown after the crash of a big pyramid-type savings scheme. In a week-long riot, army barracks were looted by angry mobs, and thousands of Kalashnikovs and other weapons have since been circulating in the country.

Yet, despite languishing in prison with his children fearing for their lives, Bardoku accepts the blood debt as part of traditional Albanian life. In a recent interview with officials from the NRC, he remarked: "Life reserves such grave fates for us. Now things have happened, they can not be undone."

---------------------------

Best part is:


The new freedom to hire contract killers has spread to all Albanian-populated areas, including the western part of neighbouring Macedonia, Kosovo and southern Serbia, where the number of killings has also risen.


Woah, NATO sure saved Kosovo for civilization didn't it? :D
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Blood feud retaliations are severely penalised by Albanian law, but prosecutors often face a lack of co-operation from traditional communities that prefer to adhere to the ancient code
:roll: That is best left without comment. Fucking Medieval.
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Post by Elaro »

Ah fuck. Well, what can we do?
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Elaro wrote:Ah fuck. Well, what can we do?
Get the fuck out of there, that's what. We should never have gone into Kosovo in the first place, and our continued presence sure isn't helping matters.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Never gone into Kosovo the first place? What about all the genocidal shit that happened there?
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Post by Vympel »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Never gone into Kosovo the first place? What about all the genocidal shit that happened there?
No such shit happened. It was as made up as Bush's WMD bullshit. It was a civil war with a few thousand dead on both sides, not a re-run of the Holocaust.
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Never gone into Kosovo the first place? What about all the genocidal shit that happened there?
At the very least, the stories of genocide and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo were grossly exaggerated by the Western media. Milosevic may have been a murderous fuckhead, but as far as Kosovo is concerned, it appears that at most he was guilty of being far too heavy-handed in putting down a rebellion in his own country. And I should add, now that Kosovo is "liberated" the Albanians of the former KLA (which was really nothing more than an islamofascist terrorist group, funded by Iran I might add) are using our protection as an opportunity to ethnically cleanse the province of Serbs.
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Post by Kane Starkiller »

Vympel wrote:No such shit happened. It was as made up as Bush's WMD bullshit. It was a civil war with a few thousand dead on both sides, not a re-run of the Holocaust.
Albanians were being ethnically cleaned and 170,000 were displaced by the time NATO started it's air raid with further 850,000 expelled from Kosovo after the air raids started.
I fail to see how occasional blood feud killing can compare to that.
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Post by Cao Cao »

The fact that blood feud killings are happening at all indicates a descent into barbarism. If NATO are going to interfere in someone else's war they should take responsibility for protecting the people.
But then, neither they nor America seem to be capable of cleaning up their mess.
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Post by Kane Starkiller »

Bloodfeud killings were there long before NATO came in and were common even in Montenegro.
NATO acted to prevent million people being ethnically cleansed not "interfering with someone else's war".
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Albanians were being ethnically cleaned and 170,000 were displaced by the time NATO started it's air raid
With around the same amount of Serbs displaced in the course of the Kosovo operation. Wonderful. Why hasn't NATO attacked Chechnya, where Russians were ethnically cleansed and 100,000 were displaced by the time Russia initiated a military operation against the fucking place, eh? So frankly, NATO hasn't prevented anything, it just reversed the situation where Albanian thugs cleansed Serbs.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:
Albanians were being ethnically cleaned and 170,000 were displaced by the time NATO started it's air raid
With around the same amount of Serbs displaced in the course of the Kosovo operation. Wonderful. Why hasn't NATO attacked Chechnya, where Russians were ethnically cleansed and 100,000 were displaced by the time Russia initiated a military operation against the fucking place, eh? So frankly, NATO hasn't prevented anything, it just reversed the situation where Albanian thugs cleansed Serbs.
I have been of the opinion that the only reason Nato reacted was that it was happening in their own backyard, and probably a chance to spread influence.

If they really cared, they would have intervened in Darfur and some other genocide going on in Africa much more strongly instead of hiding behind the UN.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

If they really cared, they would have intervened in Darfur and some other genocide going on in Africa much more strongly instead of hiding behind the UN.
The real truth IMHO lies in the fact that NATO is not a capable force unless it's actions are driven by national interest of the major players.

Unless this happens, it remains a bulky and ineffective force that doesn't really respond to civil conflicts (I guess they like the sound of the word "INTERVENTION" even less after seeing the great debacle that happened with the U.S. in Iraq)

Of course, intervening in Dafur requires actually doing something that has no relation to your national interests, more than that, it's against your national interest to intervene in some unimportant shithole on the other side of the globe abd possibly get mired there and men killed.

That's the sad truth, war is an extension of politics and what applies in case of a real national interest, does not apply in it's abscense.

Would NATO willingly try to intervene in a possible civil war in Ukraine, eh?
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:
If they really cared, they would have intervened in Darfur and some other genocide going on in Africa much more strongly instead of hiding behind the UN.
The real truth IMHO lies in the fact that NATO is not a capable force unless it's actions are driven by national interest of the major players.

Unless this happens, it remains a bulky and ineffective force that doesn't really respond to civil conflicts (I guess they like the sound of the word "INTERVENTION" even less after seeing the great debacle that happened with the U.S. in Iraq)

Of course, intervening in Dafur requires actually doing something that has no relation to your national interests, more than that, it's against your national interest to intervene in some unimportant shithole on the other side of the globe abd possibly get mired there and men killed.

That's the sad truth, war is an extension of politics and what applies in case of a real national interest, does not apply in it's abscense.

Would NATO willingly try to intervene in a possible civil war in Ukraine, eh?
Russia probably would since the eastern half would probably go back to Russia and then the nationalists in the west would react violently as they did back before Barbarossa where they were allied with the Nazis.

National Interests. All this talk of "saving Kosovo" is no different from the Crusading kings of old.
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Post by Kane Starkiller »

Stas Bush wrote:
Kane Starkiller wrote:Albanians were being ethnically cleaned and 170,000 were displaced by the time NATO started it's air raid
With around the same amount of Serbs displaced in the course of the Kosovo operation. Wonderful.
I notice you left out the 850,000 part which makes the figure far larger.
Here is a comprehensive report detailing that 862, 979 ethnic Albanians were displaced or 80% of Kosovo's population or 90% of Kosovar Albanians.
Certainly NATO could've done much better but the outcome is far superior than had it not interfered at all.
Stas Bush wrote:Why hasn't NATO attacked Chechnya, where Russians were ethnically cleansed and 100,000 were displaced by the time Russia initiated a military operation against the fucking place, eh?
First of all would Russians even allow NATO to perform military operations there? Secondly while there are reports of 350,000 displaced Chechnyans caused by Russian Army even back in 1995 I have yet to see any sources for 100,000 Russians being driven off.
Stas Bush wrote:So frankly, NATO hasn't prevented anything, it just reversed the situation where Albanian thugs cleansed Serbs.
Um yes it did. It prevented million of Albanians to be ethnically cleansed from Serbia. And they are not "thugs" anymore than Serbs.
Stas Bush wrote:The real truth IMHO lies in the fact that NATO is not a capable force unless it's actions are driven by national interest of the major players.
The point remains that in this particular case they were in the right to interfere whatever their motives are.
Besides NATO is a military alliance that is supposed to act in the best interest of it's members is it not? It was never supposed to be the Red Cross not that I would mind to see it become a little more altruistic.
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Post by Vympel »

Kane Starkiller wrote: Albanians were being ethnically cleaned
That word as used by most is a deliberate attempt by those who use it to imply genocide, and that's not what happened. Indeed, I wonder how one can justify arguments of ethnic cleansing when unsurprisingly the majority of the population only evacuated in droves after the bombing campaign started, yet the unrest that had taken place between the Serb military and the KLA did not result in massive ethnic cleansing.
and 170,000 were displaced by the time NATO started it's air raid with further 850,000 expelled from Kosovo after the air raids started.
Unsurprisingly, people being displaced in a civil war together with a 78-day bombing campaign (ie virtually a given) doesn't exactly invoke the same outrage as brazen lies about genocide and 100,000 dead.
I fail to see how occasional blood feud killing can compare to that.
For my part, I do not see how people being displaced in a civil war somehow justifies a country being dismemembered and all the war guilt being placed on Serbia while the narco-terrorists on the other side (aka the KLA) get their own state as a pat on the head. Never mind the bombing of all Serbia.
Last edited by Vympel on 2007-06-04 09:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Kane Starkiller wrote:The point remains that in this particular case they were in the right to interfere whatever their motives are.
Besides NATO is a military alliance that is supposed to act in the best interest of it's members is it not? It was never supposed to be the Red Cross not that I would mind to see it become a little more altruistic.
Who defines right? The West has constantly indulged in forced nation building that has constantly led to some disaster one way or another. What right did Nato have to indulge in this stupid "soft hearted bleeding liberal" adventure and instead give a blank check to the Albanians to continue their bloody business just as the US is practically setting Iraq up for a civil war that has already erupted regardless what officialdom tries to say.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Since people have mostly covered other points, I'll expand on what happened in Chechnya.

From the beginning of the self-proclaimed independence, the Dudaev regime and the Chechen boeviki begun to systematically hunt down, kill and displace the non-Chechen and non-Muslim population of the republic, which caused a huge wave of refugess. The Russian-speaking nationalities were persecuted, among them ethnic Russians as the main category. According to the statistics of the Ministry of Nationalities, from 1991 to 1994 over 21,000 Russians have been murdered in Chechnya, while over 46,000 were de-facto enslaved (kidnapped and turned into household slaves, a common practice of the Chechen jihadists - S.B.), over 100,000 households belonging to non-Chechen nationalities were seized by Chechen bandits. [linko] Over 200,000 non-Chechens were forced to leave the republic running from the ongoing ethnic cleansing. The most serious were losses of the Russian-speaking citizens in the Kazak villages: Assinovskaya, Chervlennaya, Naurskaya, Shelkovskaya, Mekenskaya, Grebenskaya. The mass persecution of Russians culminated in the First Chechen War in 1994.

According to the 1989 population count, the Chechen republic housed 293,771 Russians. In 2002, only 40,645 remained, and 5,559 left in Ingushetia. The Russian population has declined 7 times. But Russians were not the only group to face ethnic cleansing from Chechens - the Armenian population in Chechnya dropped 34 times.

Sure, "back in 1995". Try going back a bit further, 1991-1994.
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Post by Netko »

Vympel wrote:That word as used by most is a deliberate attempt by those who use it to imply genocide, and that's not what happened. Indeed, I wonder how one can justify arguments of ethnic cleansing when unsurprisingly the majority of the population only evacuated in droves after the bombing campaign started, yet the unrest that had taken place between the Serb military and the KLA did not result in massive ethnic cleansing.
Yes, it is, and, yes, that's not what happened. But it is still the correct descriptor - Serb forces would go into a village, kill a few people, rape or violently harass them in the goal of forcing them to pack up and head for the hills/Albania. The process was well under way when the airstrikes happened. Partly it really happened, mostly people fled because of exaggerated stories of it happening - in the end there really was a terror campaign in progress with the goal of "encouraging" the Albanian population to get out, which is pretty much the definition of ethnic cleansing.
Unsurprisingly, people being displaced in a civil war together with a 78-day bombing campaign (ie virtually a given) doesn't exactly invoke the same outrage as brazen lies about genocide and 100,000 dead.
Well, yes, obviously (and the media was led into exaggeration, that's also true). It's still a case of ethnic cleansing.
For my part, I do not see how people being displaced in a civil war somehow justifies a country being dismemembered and all the war guilt being placed on Serbia while the narco-terrorists on the other side (aka the KLA) get their own state as a pat on the head. Never mind the bombing of all Serbia.
For one thing, the bombing didn't happen in a vacuum. It was only partly a reaction to the situation on the ground, and a lot of it was a reaction to the public pressure that there shouldn't be another Srebrenica or Vukovar - if this was the first Serbian foray into ethnic conflicts it probably would have been as ineffectively handled as Croatia and Bosnia. However, from my perspective, at least, Kosovo was the straw that broke the camels back, or the third strike for Milošević's policies. Europe, US and NATO could not afford to look indecisive and weak with shit stirred up yet again by their backyard bully. The Kosovo Albanians were just in the right place and the right time compared to the Croatians and Bosnians to benefit from it.

And yes, the law of unintended consequences yet again took hold. Although I'm still hoping Kosovars will realise their position and responsibilities and make a decent state out of it in the end instead of a festering undeveloped sore of Europe.

As for the article itself, while I'm not doubting its veracity overall, I think the Kosovo and Serbia part was tacked on without much research. I've looked around some of the prominent Serbian sites and while they're chock full of stories related to Kosovo, its status and what not, this story isn't getting picked up (or a similar story written), while being the exact type of Kosovars-as-savages story that should get good print. Doesn't prove anything, of course (and I could have missed it as well), but it does cast some doubt, at least to me, on it.
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Post by Netko »

Ghetto edit: the last bit isn't wholly true. As I was writing it I remembered that I didn't check Serbianna.com, a nationalistic Serb site that revels in pointing out any incident that "confirms" their theories that all the Croats are Ustaše, Bosniaks and Albanians Wahabbists, the world is out to get the poor Serbs and similar dreck. True enough, they had this story - in their news ticker of foreign press. No writeup, no comment, no highlight.
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Post by Kane Starkiller »

Vympel wrote:That word as used by most is a deliberate attempt by those who use it to imply genocide, and that's not what happened. Indeed, I wonder how one can justify arguments of ethnic cleansing when unsurprisingly the majority of the population only evacuated in droves after the bombing campaign started, yet the unrest that had taken place between the Serb military and the KLA did not result in massive ethnic cleansing.
No over 100,000 Albanians were already cleansed before NATO attacked as I already pointed out and there is certainly no evidence that 850,000 people just decided to leave Kosovo with total 1.7 million people being displaced out of their homes.
NATO's "smart bombs" have their fair share of causing "collateral damage" but nowhere near enough to justify that kind of displacement.
Vympel wrote:Unsurprisingly, people being displaced in a civil war together with a 78-day bombing campaign (ie virtually a given) doesn't exactly invoke the same outrage as brazen lies about genocide and 100,000 dead.
Really now. 78-day bombing is the explanation for 42% of Albanians leaving Kosovo? Funny how that didn't happen during the extensive fire bombing of Germany or Japan.
Vympel wrote:For my part, I do not see how people being displaced in a civil war somehow justifies a country being dismemembered and all the war guilt being placed on Serbia while the narco-terrorists on the other side (aka the KLA) get their own state as a pat on the head. Never mind the bombing of all Serbia.
In no way can civil war explain why 850,000 thousand ethnic Albanians (42% of Kosovo population) were expelled out of Kosovo while ove 80% of total population were displaced out of their homes.
And using the passive form "displaced" really doesn't change anything since we all know there was a direct cause for this and 80% of people certainly didn't just spontaneously decide to leave their homes.
Serbia was bombed because they continued their policy of ethnic cleansing. And they certainly didn't bomb "all of Serbia" limiting the bombing to certain factories and communications. Certainly not indiscriminate bombing of cities or anything.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Who defines right? The West has constantly indulged in forced nation building that has constantly led to some disaster one way or another. What right did Nato have to indulge in this stupid "soft hearted bleeding liberal" adventure and instead give a blank check to the Albanians to continue their bloody business just as the US is practically setting Iraq up for a civil war that has already erupted regardless what officialdom tries to say.
"Who defines right"? Please don't tell me you are going to play silly games. 170,000 people were displaced out of their homes and there was no sign of stopping.
And what "bloody business" is Albania conducting? Bloodfeuds? How is that different than what mafia did in US? They are criminals. How does that mean that ALL Albanians are like that? How does that mean that they deserve to be ethnically cleansed? What is your alternative, that NATO didn't interfere and Kosovo was ethnically cleansed of Albanians? 2 million people expelled?
"Soft hearted bleeding liberal" indeed. :roll:
Stas Bush wrote:Since people have mostly covered other points, I'll expand on what happened in Chechnya.
From the beginning of the self-proclaimed independence, the Dudaev regime and the Chechen boeviki begun to systematically hunt down, kill and displace the non-Chechen and non-Muslim population of the republic, which caused a huge wave of refugess. The Russian-speaking nationalities were persecuted, among them ethnic Russians as the main category. According to the statistics of the Ministry of Nationalities, from 1991 to 1994 over 21,000 Russians have been murdered in Chechnya, while over 46,000 were de-facto enslaved (kidnapped and turned into household slaves, a common practice of the Chechen jihadists - S.B.), over 100,000 households belonging to non-Chechen nationalities were seized by Chechen bandits. [linko] Over 200,000 non-Chechens were forced to leave the republic running from the ongoing ethnic cleansing. The most serious were losses of the Russian-speaking citizens in the Kazak villages: Assinovskaya, Chervlennaya, Naurskaya, Shelkovskaya, Mekenskaya, Grebenskaya. The mass persecution of Russians culminated in the First Chechen War in 1994.
According to the 1989 population count, the Chechen republic housed 293,771 Russians. In 2002, only 40,645 remained, and 5,559 left in Ingushetia. The Russian population has declined 7 times. But Russians were not the only group to face ethnic cleansing from Chechens - the Armenian population in Chechnya dropped 34 times.
Sure, "back in 1995". Try going back a bit further, 1991-1994.
First of all do you have any international sources like Human Rights Watch because I couldn't find anything and I doubt they would miss 21,000 Russian being killed, 46,000 used as slaves and 200,000 ethnically cleansed. It would hardly do if I linked to Albanian sources about ethnic cleansing of Albanians would it?
And it is interesting how you can justify 300,000 Chechens ethnically cleansed and Grozny leveled to the ground to protect ethnic Russians yet attack NATO bombing of Serbia which caused nowhere near the damage to protect ethnic Albanians.
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Kane Starkiller wrote: No over 100,000 Albanians were already cleansed before NATO attacked as I already pointed out and there is certainly no evidence that 850,000 people just decided to leave Kosovo with total 1.7 million people being displaced out of their homes.
Still with that "cleansed" stuff? Just because a war comes rolling through your area doesn't mean that the intent is to "cleanse" the entire region of everyone of a certain ethnicity. Indeed, 100,000 or whatever over the period the Serbs had been fighting the KLA is miniscule and certainly not indicative of some sort of organized "cleansing" campaign on the part of the Serbs.

Do you even know when the hell the war began? Do you know why the Serbs rejected the Ramboulliet peace accords, which before a certain amendment had been acceptable to them?
NATO's "smart bombs" have their fair share of causing "collateral damage" but nowhere near enough to justify that kind of displacement.
Who said they did? It's a massive escalation of a military conflict in totality, not their fault alone. If there's any evidence for ethnic cleansing by displacement (and there is), any attempt to divorce it from escalation caused by a bombing campaign is complete BS, and further, putting the cart before the horse: the NATO bombing campaign was justified because of "ethnic cleansing" that only began after the bombing started.

Brilliant.
Really now. 78-day bombing is the explanation for 42% of Albanians leaving Kosovo? Funny how that didn't happen during the extensive fire bombing of Germany or Japan.
Strawman and non-responsive to the point, which is that the bombing was based on a lie.
In no way can civil war explain why 850,000 thousand ethnic Albanians (42% of Kosovo population) were expelled out of Kosovo while ove 80% of total population were displaced out of their homes.
Why, because you say so? Do you really think in that sort of combat people are inclined to stay put?

Never mind it really is fantastic how you're basically arguing NATO's actions were justified to stop events that only began after their bombing started. Because your attempt to make out that a paltry 100,000 displaced persons (which you insist were deliberately "cleansed") in a civil war in a province of well over 1,000,000 people is a total non-starter.
And using the passive form "displaced" really doesn't change anything since we all know there was a direct cause for this and 80% of people certainly didn't just spontaneously decide to leave their homes.
Serbia was bombed because they continued their policy of ethnic cleansing.
And because they were anti-fairy floss and pixies too, I imagine. Have you even looked, for example, at the failed peace talks before the bombing started?
And they certainly didn't bomb "all of Serbia" limiting the bombing to certain factories and communications. Certainly not indiscriminate bombing of cities or anything.
Bullshit. Check your facts, the bombing of Serbia was not limited to "factories and communications", no matter what you may believe.
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Vympel wrote:Still with that "cleansed" stuff?

That's what HRW is calling it.
Vympel wrote:Just because a war comes rolling through your area doesn't mean that the intent is to "cleanse" the entire region of everyone of a certain ethnicity. Indeed, 100,000 over the period the Serbs had been fighting the KLA is miniscule and certainly not indicative of some sort of organized "cleansing" campaign on the part of the Serbs.
KLA was a paramilitary organization which could never attack Serbian military head on. Please explain how fighting with it could've caused 100,000 people being expelled from Kosovo.
And the intent obviously WAS to ethnically cleanse Kosovo as later development shows or do you figure that 850,000 people just happened to stand in the way of this massive war.
Vympel wrote:Do you even know when the hell the KLA began it's campaign? Do you know why the Serbs rejected the Ramboulliet peace accords, which before a certain amendment had been acceptable to them? It seems to me you've bought NATO bullshit hook, line and sinker.
As far as I know the peace accord stated that after some time member states will have the right to secede from state union.
I'm not interested in legalese. Million people were being expelled from Kosovo and you claim they just happened to be in the way of the war. That is some war.
Vympel wrote:Who said they did? It's a massive escalation of a military conflict in totality, not their fault alone.
Bullshit. How many people KLA had? What mechanisation they had? Can that in any way explain million people being expelled?
Vympel wrote:Strawman and non-responsive to the point, which is that the bombing was based on a lie.
First of all I never heard any newsagency state that 100,000 people were killed merely that ethnic cleansing is occurring on a massive scale which was correct. Secondly if some reports were false how does this change the fact that ethnic cleansing WAS occurring? Or are you again going to pretend that military conflict with paramilitary guerilla KLA was so massive it explains 100,000 people being expelled.
Vympel wrote:Why, because you say so? Do you really think in that sort of combat people are inclined to stay put?
What sort of combat? Are you saying that fighting with KLA was so extensive that entire Kosovo was in direct line of fire? Were Kosovars Serbian citizens? Then why did Serbian military fire indiscriminately on ethnic Albanian villages here they suspected the KLA was hiding?

Vympel wrote:Never mind it really is fantastic how you're basically arguing NATO's actions were justified to stop events that only began after their bombing started. Because your attempt to make out that a paltry 100,000 displaced persons (which you insist were deliberately "cleansed") in a civil war in a province of well over 1,000,000 people is a total non-started.
Paltry 100,000 people? Have you ever been in a war? I have and let me telly you there is nothing paltry about 100,000 people being expelled from their country. And the events started BEFORE the war for the n-th time with 170,000 people displaced from their homes and 100,000 people expelled from Kosovo.
What about HRW? Are they also full of shit when they claim that ethnic cleansing was occurring?
Vympel wrote:Bullshit. Check your facts, the bombing of Serbia was not limited to "factories and communications", no matter what you may believe.
What else? Bridges? I am waiting for some evidence of "all of Serbia".
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Kane Starkiller wrote: That's what HRW is calling it.
They can call it whatever they like.
KLA was a paramilitary organization which could never attack Serbian military head on.
They were guerillas, pure and simple. What's next, you're going to tell me the Viet Cong never attacked the US military head on? You have any idea of the kind of tactics militaries employ when fighting guerillas? Especially militaries low on technology and high on mass firepower?
Please explain how fighting with it could've caused 100,000 people being expelled from Kosovo.
What's with this "expelled" claim? Prove they were forcibly expelled from the country by Serbian forces as opposed to leaving out of fear, especially since you point out that a greater number had no home but remained in the province.
And the intent obviously WAS to ethnically cleanse Kosovo as later development shows
You mean the later development that miraculously coincides with the beginning of a 78-day bombing campaign.
or do you figure that 850,000 people just happened to stand in the way of this massive war.
See below.
As far as I know the peace accord stated that after some time member states will have the right to secede from state union.
I'm not interested in legalese.
Of course not, a look at what happened in the leadup to bombing might spoil the simplistic and convenient narrative that the evil Serbs were stopped by the just and righteous NATO from oppressing the virginal Albanians.
Million people were being expelled from Kosovo and you claim they just happened to be in the way of the war. That is some war.
Bullcrap, as I stated in my post, there is evidence of "ethnic cleansing" as far as displacement is concerned.

The fact remains it began, if at all, in earnest only after the bombing started, and thus, justifying bombing because of it is an exercise in total bullshit. Period.
Bullshit. How many people KLA had? What mechanisation they had? Can that in any way explain million people being expelled?
Are you fucking serious? The KLA was cooperating with NATO airstrikes. You didn't know that? This was a guerilla army with air support. Your attempts to downplay the KLA as insignificant are rubbish- and, in light of this entirely uncontroversial fact, so is your attempt to make out that there's absolutely no way that a 78-day bombing campaign would have at all contributed in inflaming the violence in the province. :roll:
First of all I never heard any newsagency state that 100,000 people were killed merely that ethnic cleansing is occurring on a massive scale which was correct.
Then you're damn ignorant (which I've suspected given your dismissal of the KLA as a not very serious matter ...) or simply lying. The media repeated, over and over and over and over, that hundreds of thousands of people had been killed, and the word genocide was bandied about repeatedly.
Secondly if some reports were false how does this change the fact that ethnic cleansing WAS occurring? Or are you again going to pretend that military conflict with paramilitary guerilla KLA was so massive it explains 100,000 people being expelled.
It easily does, your empty denials to the contrary aside. The Serbian military is not some finely honed precise military machine.

Further, this "if some reports were false" dismissal- the bombing was not justified because of the plight of people forced from their homes in war. It was justified on the basis of claims of genocide. Those claims were false. What's so hard to understand about this?

Your attempt to dismiss the campaign of lies that got a country bombed for 78 days as simply a few false reports that doesn't change anything is absurd.
What sort of combat? Are you saying that fighting with KLA was so extensive that entire Kosovo was in direct line of fire? Were Kosovars Serbian citizens? Then why did Serbian military fire indiscriminately on ethnic Albanian villages here they suspected the KLA was hiding?
Because ethnic Albanians supported the KLA, which was fighting for the secession of Kosovo from Serbia and it being absorbed by Albania, obviously. Or did you not know that, either?

Was it wrong? Yes? Does that mean NATO was justified in bombing Serbia and directly supporting the KLA, an organization the State Department had called narco-terrorists? Fuck no.
Paltry 100,000 people? Have you ever been in a war? I have and let me telly you there is nothing paltry about 100,000 people being expelled from their country. And the events started BEFORE the war for the n-th time with 170,000 people displaced from their homes and 100,000 people expelled from Kosovo.
It's paltry when viewed in the context of what was going on, how long it had been going on, and the consequences brought about by bombing Serbia for it. It didn't justify bombing. Simple.
What about HRW? Are they also full of shit when they claim that ethnic cleansing was occurring?
I've already conceded "cleansing" was occuring.
What else? Bridges? I am waiting for some evidence of "all of Serbia".
All of Yugoslavia, actually- Montenegro was bombed to. Are you really beign so obtuse that you're trying to strawman "all of Serbia" into carpet bombing of every square foot of soil?

And thanks for that, bridges. Do you have any idea what bombing Danube bridges would do to the economy of the country? Factories? Power stations? Pahlease.
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Post by Vympel »

Here's William Cohen, lying through his teeth, press conference, April 7, 1999:

Link
Defense Secretary wrote:The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide
The Washington Post, repeating William Cohen's claim that 100,000 ethnic Albanians may have been killed:

Link
Up to 100,000 ethnic Albanian men in Kosovo of fighting age have vanished and may have been killed by Serbian forces, Defense Secretary William Cohen said on Sunday.
CNN:

Link
Amid indications that "genocide is unfolding in Kosovo," the U.S. State Department on Monday welcomed a new Russian diplomatic effort to resolve the crisis, but said the only way to stop NATO airstrikes against Yugoslavia would be for President Slobodan Milosevic to accept a U.S.-brokered peace plan.
Shall I go on?
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