A Call to Arms

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

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Jim Raynor
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Post by Jim Raynor »

Cloaking Technology
"No ship that small has a cloaking device!"
- Captain Needa, referring to the Millennium Falcon, The Empire Strikes Back

That would seem to be yet another SW technological limitation:
He's taking the surprised ramblings of a mere ship captain as infallible truth, despite numerous official sources saying otherwise. Of course the idiot doesn't accept the EU.

[After showing a pic of a small TOS cloaking device]
(The Federation phase-cloak was no larger, and though it took two Ferengi to carry a Bird-of-Prey's cloak in "The Emperor's New Cloak"[DS9], it was also smaller than a person, and later cloaked a vessel of 1,000+ meters in size.)

Pictures speak a thousand words.
Darkstar seems to think that Federation cloaking tech is superior to Imperial cloaks, on the assumption that since the Falcon was supposedly to small to carry a cloak, SW cloaking devices must be much more massive than these small ST cloaks. Of course Needa could have meant that a ship the MF's size can't generate enough power for a cloak, or he might have taken into consideration that the MF is an obsolete piece of civilian junk. This is also buying into the common Trekkie fallacy that "big = primitive" without the slightest thought about what really matters, which is PERFORMANCE. Even if we assume that Darkstar is correct about SW cloaks being huge, they're total cloaks (except for CGT), while ST cloaks are not.
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Post by Alyeska »

I guess I can offer some support. Darkstar isn't doing the Trek side any good. Much as I would like to see Trek beating up on Wars, I don't like people using out right lies and ignorance to do so. Thats not really winning and voids the entire attempt.

I would probably be more useful in interpretation of things pertaining to Trek because I do have a slightly larger wealth of information about Trek. I can help prove some of his idiotic Trek claims to be false.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Alyeska wrote:I guess I can offer some support. Darkstar isn't doing the Trek side any good. Much as I would like to see Trek beating up on Wars, I don't like people using out right lies and ignorance to do so. Thats not really winning and voids the entire attempt.

I would probably be more useful in interpretation of things pertaining to Trek because I do have a slightly larger wealth of information about Trek. I can help prove some of his idiotic Trek claims to be false.
Thanks, Alyeska, it'll be fun to finally be on the same side of a debate with you.
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Alyeska
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Post by Alyeska »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I guess I can offer some support. Darkstar isn't doing the Trek side any good. Much as I would like to see Trek beating up on Wars, I don't like people using out right lies and ignorance to do so. Thats not really winning and voids the entire attempt.

I would probably be more useful in interpretation of things pertaining to Trek because I do have a slightly larger wealth of information about Trek. I can help prove some of his idiotic Trek claims to be false.
Thanks, Alyeska, it'll be fun to finally be on the same side of a debate with you.
Well, we came to some mutual agreements on a debate of phasers compared to torpedoes a while back. Its not THAT unusual. :)
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

If I can help I will......Darkstar isn't doing anything to help the ST side, all he does is give a bad name to ST fans.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:If I can help I will......Darkstar isn't doing anything to help the ST side, all he does is give a bad name to ST fans.
Good to have you on board.
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Post by Jim Raynor »

Base Delta Zero
"... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away,
before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a
complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a through search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface."
-- Scavenger Hunt, p.3

So, what do we have? Three Star Destroyers slag (melt) a base facility, and attack the rest of the surface, leaving it evenly-cratered and without an atmosphere. We do not know the size of Dankayo, so much of that information is useless for gauging firepower. (Not to mention confusing . . . how do you make an atmosphere drift away while simultaneously putting dense clouds of debris into it?)
Dankayo was a habitable planet with topsoil. It's obviously around the same size as Earth.
It is clear, though, that the planet itself was mostly unharmed, considering that a survivor in a "deep planet shelter" of the "tiny base" survived. Transports and TIE fighters moved in to perform "mop-up" operations.
The guy in that shelter doesn't seem to think so:

Transmitted from Dankayo to Alliance Com Buoy 965C shortly after the Imperial attack
Entry I
As instructed, I have remained behind until the last of our transports departed safely into hyperspace. Imperial Star Destroyers have so thoroughly blasted Dankayo that I fear for my safety, even in this deep-planet survival shelter.
Then, in 1994 and 1995, a mass of new books started to come out, and three of these had planetary attack references. The slagging of a Rebel base in "Scavenger Hunt" suddenly became:

"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag."
-- Imperial Sourcebook

Well, now, that's quite a change! Now we've gone from a three Star Destroyers against a tiny base on a small moon to one against an entire civilized world! Further, just how this is meant is unclear . . . is that the entire surface, or just the traces of civilisation? Also intriguing is the following from the same source, which would seem to contradict the other quote:
So new sources aren't allowed to state higher firepowers than what was done to Dankayo? Any proof that the Dankayo bombardment was even anywhere near what 3 ISDs can do? He's also playing bullshit semantics here, the ISB clearly states that an ISD can slag a civilized WORLD here. How does this translate into only traces of civilizations?
"System bombards are used when the Empire would rather completely destroy a world rather than see it fall into Rebel hands."
"System bombard contains an average of 100 ships divided between three bombard squadrons and a light squadron. If an admiral feels that force superiority has done less than a thorough job of removing hostile craft from the system, a system bombard squadron will be augmented with ships from the light squadron."

As per the Sourcebook, the 100 ship fleet may include a few ISDs. And yet, it still takes 100 ships? It seems clear that a lone ISD isn't going to be slagging the entire surface, in that case. Indeed, what it might be expected to do may not be too different from what we're told in The Star Wars Adventure Journal. The SWAJ was a little more modest in its approach, but it has given us the name of the order for a total planetary attack:
From the ISB:

Torpedo lines usually have two torpedo spheres. The cumbersome nature of the spheres makes them useful only for their primary mission of planet bombardment. The dream of a more mobile platform with even greater firepower has tantalized Imperial planners for years, but the torpedo line remains a staple of the Navy.

And

Bombard squadrons have two torpedo lines, a skirmish line, and a pursuit line, for an average of 20 to 28 vessels. Bombard squadrons are assigned to worlds which have rebelled successfully and have organized a large surface military which would take far too long to defeat. Imperial commanders, pressed on so many planets, often deploy bombard squadrons in less severe circumstances.

Darkstar conveniently forgets that this 100 ship fleet contains Torpedo Spheres, whose ONLY purpose is to break through planetary shields. Obviously, this kind of fleet isn't used on unshielded, undefended planets.
"Sir, what about bombardment? Is there a stage for that?"
"Blasting a planet from orbit is easy -- you don't need me to tell you how to do that. Limited orbital strikes would occur during the invasion stage. Just hope you are never given a Base Delta Zero order, lieutenant. Ah, yes, another question?"
"Sir, what's the Base Delta Zero order?"
"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."
-- "A World to Conquer"

This makes a little more sense. Three Star Destroyers can fire on and eventually slag a Rebel base facility of unspecified size, so simply destroying the population centers, resources (presumably major ones) and industry (perhaps melting some buildings and such) shouldn't be too much worse, given a sufficient number of Star Destroyers. This view is supported by the Star Wars Technical Journal of 1995, which makes reference to turning a planet's surface into "smoking debris". The problem comes with what is said after that . . . "a matter of hours".
He also seems to forget that natural resources include forests, water, and animal life, which will take a hell of a lot more to destroy than just the cities.
Naturally, caution was thrown to the wind by some Warsies. Suddenly, a Base Delta Zero operation became a single Star Destroyer's act of *melting* the *entire surface* of a world in *a matter of hours*.

So, basically, they decided to pick and choose. They took the name BDZ without bothering to use the Adventure Journal's definition. They took the slagging from "Scavenger Hunt" and the Sourcebook without bothering to acknowledge the targets. They took the entire surface from the Technical Journal, but failed to acknowledge the smoking cinder. And finally, they took the mere hours from the SWTJ without acknowledging the utter lack of slagging involved.


BDZ was just a means to an end, which were gigaton-level firepower for SW. In order to wipe out all the things I stated above within a few hours, it would HAVE to have gigaton level firepower.
And so, the legend of the Base Delta Zero maneuver has grown and grown, until it is now codified as part of the inflated numbers and statements in the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections, where the idea of slagging an entire planet's surface in a matter of hours is stated to be the Base Delta Zero command, making it as good as canon fact to many in spite of the horrendous inconsistencies.
Wah, wah. Like it or not, the ICS stands.
Further, this page contains Saxton's statements that, contrary to the popular myth, he did not have the completed film at his disposal. Indeed, it appears that many of the FX sequences were not complete (and in some cases would not begin until months later) when the book's deadline arrived. This is, no doubt, how Saxton arrived at figures for certain weapons that are hundreds and thousands of times greater than what is observed in the film, such as Slave I's shots on the landing platform. Other problems result from Dr. Saxton's colloboration over the years with pro-Wars and Warsie debaters heavily involved in the Trek vs. Wars debates. These individuals have no doubt contributed greatly to the revision of the definition of "Base Delta Zero", as well as Jedi fighter firepower numbers based on false assumptions of later fighter firepower.
Would Boba-Fett use weapons set to kiloton levels when his dad's on that platform too? Also, it doesn't matter how Saxton comes up with those numbers, the fact is that it's official, and therefore proof on its own.
Finally, there is the fundamental disagreement between Saxton and Lucas as to what Star Wars really is. Saxton feels that it is a "fundamental fact that entire SW saga occurs in the same universe",whereas Lucas has made it abundantly clear that he places the "other world" of the EU in a "parallel universe" to his own. Therefore, Saxton's conclusions which utilize elements of the Expanded Universe are not 'just shy of canon', like Warsies claim, but are in fact based on "interpretation and speculation", to borrow from Cerasi.
Blah blah blah, more "canon only" crap.
(*) It should be noted that anytime anyone takes a skeptical view of the ICS, Warsies take it very personally, and accuse the skeptic of attacking Saxton personally. You can ignore these red herrings . . . the Warsies who make those claims are generally the same ones who use insults and personal attacks to try to win arguments, so the accusations are merely extensions of the fact that they have forgotten the distinction between attacking the argument and attacking the man.


This guy seems to be under the delusion that everyone only resorts to ad hominems against him.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, if you take a Base Delta Zero operation for what it actually is, the destruction of the civilized areas and assets of production of a planet, you'll find a remarkable similarity to something which already existed in Star Trek. Known as General Order 24, this order required a starship to destroy the entire civilized surface of a planet.
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Post by Lord Poe »

I've already destroyed one of his pet arguments here:

http://h4h.com/louis/idiot.html

On tap, I will destroy his crap about the Falcon's weapons range, and his crap about the Falcon's speed and maneuverability pertaining to it locking onto the Avenger.
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Post by Darth Balls »

I have my last final on december 14th. So after that I'll be free till mid january to help out. :D
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Post by Mayhem »

Just throwing in my two cents in regard to one of the many issues that Dumbass brings up.

Has everyone seen the scene where he claims an Eewock arrow pentrates scout trooper armor? You know the one with the really blurry pics where it's nearly impossible to see the arrow anyway, allowing him to claim it hit the armor proper instead of the bodyglove?

Well the pint I would bring up is that the trooper was actually hurt by that arrow. Why is that a important observation you ask? Simple, the arrow... if it hit the armor proper and actually pentrated, and if his interpretation of those awful pics was correct, would be stuck in that big, six inch thick bulge on the troopers back. In other words, the trooper wouldn't have been touched. He certainly wouldn't have gone down like he did.

Therefore, since the trooper was actually injured, it pretty much HAD to have hit the boy glove.

:twisted:
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Post by Vympel »

Need people to smack down his ridiculous calcs. I am not math whizz.
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Post by Alyeska »

Private Message, Spacebattles
To:Alyeska
From:DarkStar
Title:Ossus

Hello,

I was wondering if you might do me a favor. I've been informed of Ossus's antics, and thought it would be nice if this were made available to him.

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWOssus1.html

Thanks!

G2k
Don't shoot the messenger, he sent this to me. Funny thing considering that I just volunteered to assist smacking him down.
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"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Post by Master of Ossus »

I love this guy. He thinks he's actually beaten me in a debate. Whoever is his mysterious messenger, tell him to expect my attack on his website in early January.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Master of Ossus wrote:I love this guy. He thinks he's actually beaten me in a debate. Whoever is his mysterious messenger, tell him to expect my attack on his website in early January.
I guess that I should further decide whether or not to take on DarkStar by myself. I could do it, but I'd rather not wade through his entire website on my own. Maybe I could only attack specific aspects of the website by myself? What do you guys think I should do? Only take on aspects of his website, or go after the whole thing with assistance?
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Post by Alyeska »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:I love this guy. He thinks he's actually beaten me in a debate. Whoever is his mysterious messenger, tell him to expect my attack on his website in early January.
I guess that I should further decide whether or not to take on DarkStar by myself. I could do it, but I'd rather not wade through his entire website on my own. Maybe I could only attack specific aspects of the website by myself? What do you guys think I should do? Only take on aspects of his website, or go after the whole thing with assistance?
Disecting it piece by piece can take time. A possible solution is to find a "dead" web board and use that as a place to gather people for this task. Once there DarkStars webpage can be examined in depth and people can find the areas they are most knowledgable and then work together to disect those sections and prove DarkStar wrong.

One thing, if your going to use another web board you will need to private message the adress to people so as to prevent DarkStar from finding it and possibly spy on our attempts.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Alyeska wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:I love this guy. He thinks he's actually beaten me in a debate. Whoever is his mysterious messenger, tell him to expect my attack on his website in early January.
I guess that I should further decide whether or not to take on DarkStar by myself. I could do it, but I'd rather not wade through his entire website on my own. Maybe I could only attack specific aspects of the website by myself? What do you guys think I should do? Only take on aspects of his website, or go after the whole thing with assistance?
Disecting it piece by piece can take time. A possible solution is to find a "dead" web board and use that as a place to gather people for this task. Once there DarkStars webpage can be examined in depth and people can find the areas they are most knowledgable and then work together to disect those sections and prove DarkStar wrong.

One thing, if your going to use another web board you will need to private message the adress to people so as to prevent DarkStar from finding it and possibly spy on our attempts.
I might do that, except that I don't really care. DarkStar has obviously been monitoring our site since he was banned with his lackeys, who are far too cowardly to challenge us in the open. I appreciate all of the offers to help, but now I'm not sure that I need it. And he did challenge me by myself. I think that I may have to disect the damn thing by myself, now. Oh well.
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Post by Alyeska »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote: I guess that I should further decide whether or not to take on DarkStar by myself. I could do it, but I'd rather not wade through his entire website on my own. Maybe I could only attack specific aspects of the website by myself? What do you guys think I should do? Only take on aspects of his website, or go after the whole thing with assistance?
Disecting it piece by piece can take time. A possible solution is to find a "dead" web board and use that as a place to gather people for this task. Once there DarkStars webpage can be examined in depth and people can find the areas they are most knowledgable and then work together to disect those sections and prove DarkStar wrong.

One thing, if your going to use another web board you will need to private message the adress to people so as to prevent DarkStar from finding it and possibly spy on our attempts.
I might do that, except that I don't really care. DarkStar has obviously been monitoring our site since he was banned with his lackeys, who are far too cowardly to challenge us in the open. I appreciate all of the offers to help, but now I'm not sure that I need it. And he did challenge me by myself. I think that I may have to disect the damn thing by myself, now. Oh well.
Well, a group effort does show him just how unwanted he is. Especially if Kamikazi Sith and myself join up. We are some of the more vocal trekkies on the board and it would send him reeling to see us siding against him so actively.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Alyeska wrote: Well, a group effort does show him just how unwanted he is. Especially if Kamikazi Sith and myself join up. We are some of the more vocal trekkies on the board and it would send him reeling to see us siding against him so actively.
I think I have a better idea. How about this: I attack his website, independent of you guys. You guys can craft your own attack on his idiocy at your leisure, but I would recommend that it be a panel made up of some Trekkies, Warsies, and whoever else wants to join. Alternatively, do you think he would think it a violation of the challenge if I asked you guys to edit the attack for me, afterwards? That might be the best solution.

To be honest, when I first conceived the of the challenge, I was just going to edit and compile everything at the end, only adding the occasional comment. Now I guess I'll have to write the good majority of it, myself. After DarkStar got his ass handed to him by Mike Wong, I suppose that I thought that to be the end of him. Now I guess that I have some work ahead of me, yet.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Master of Ossus wrote:
I might do that, except that I don't really care. DarkStar has obviously been monitoring our site since he was banned with his lackeys, who are far too cowardly to challenge us in the open. I appreciate all of the offers to help, but now I'm not sure that I need it. And he did challenge me by myself. I think that I may have to disect the damn thing by myself, now. Oh well.
I was thinking more along the lines of a three prong assault. We have your coming debate with him, and at the same time we could launch an offensive consisting of a combined Pro-ST/Pro-SW force.

I also thought you were suggesting the same thing.
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Post by Shocker »

You know, put some page numbers on these quotes and they could be pretty useful to lots of us in the debating community if we submit it to HDS or submit it to his Quotes and Extracts Database.

http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
I might do that, except that I don't really care. DarkStar has obviously been monitoring our site since he was banned with his lackeys, who are far too cowardly to challenge us in the open. I appreciate all of the offers to help, but now I'm not sure that I need it. And he did challenge me by myself. I think that I may have to disect the damn thing by myself, now. Oh well.
I was thinking more along the lines of a three prong assault. We have your coming debate with him, and at the same time we could launch an offensive consisting of a combined Pro-ST/Pro-SW force.

I also thought you were suggesting the same thing.
We can do that.
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Post by Vympel »

I don't know MoO; wouldn't it be simpler to run a slaughter of one of his pages by 'the panel' so to speak, and add stuff you may have missed? Kamikaze Sith/ Alyeska/ Darkling (if he wants to participate that is) know their Trek.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Well, a group effort does show him just how unwanted he is. Especially if Kamikazi Sith and myself join up. We are some of the more vocal trekkies on the board and it would send him reeling to see us siding against him so actively.
I think I have a better idea. How about this: I attack his website, independent of you guys. You guys can craft your own attack on his idiocy at your leisure, but I would recommend that it be a panel made up of some Trekkies, Warsies, and whoever else wants to join. Alternatively, do you think he would think it a violation of the challenge if I asked you guys to edit the attack for me, afterwards? That might be the best solution.

To be honest, when I first conceived the of the challenge, I was just going to edit and compile everything at the end, only adding the occasional comment. Now I guess I'll have to write the good majority of it, myself. After DarkStar got his ass handed to him by Mike Wong, I suppose that I thought that to be the end of him. Now I guess that I have some work ahead of me, yet.
Ahh see I knew you were thinking the same thing. I don't see how he could consider it a violation if we edit it afterwards......but then again this is Darkstar.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Alyeska wrote: Well, a group effort does show him just how unwanted he is. Especially if Kamikazi Sith and myself join up. We are some of the more vocal trekkies on the board and it would send him reeling to see us siding against him so actively.
The Darkstar thread on SB also has Chris going up against him......I'm sure he would be more than willing to help. Then there is also Darkling over here.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Well, a group effort does show him just how unwanted he is. Especially if Kamikazi Sith and myself join up. We are some of the more vocal trekkies on the board and it would send him reeling to see us siding against him so actively.
The Darkstar thread on SB also has Chris going up against him......I'm sure he would be more than willing to help. Then there is also Darkling over here.
I'm kind of in a pickle here. Like GW Bush, I know that I can crush him (Saddam, to keep the analogy going) by myself. At the same time, I also want this to seem like a unanimous combined assault, with as many other people helping out as possible. I'm not quite sure how I should respond to this. I'll think about it. I have until Christmas, after all.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

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