Subspace Transporters?

[IDMR]

Does anyone find it interesting that the Imperials can put up jamming against subspace transporters? I suppose that kind of knowledge is similar to that which would allow Federation ships to set up hyperspace interdiction fields, yes?

::shrugs:: Transporter technology had shown itself to be fragile and stopped by almost anything, including concentrations of naturally occuring rocks. Hyperdrive technology hasn't.

[TheDarkling]

It doesnt say the Jammers are subspace jammers since the sensors arent mentioned to be subspace using only the comunication system which I have already said Subspace comns can be blocked but it seems subspace transporters cannot - there must be a difference between the two or the federation would simply apply subspace comunication dampening to block the subspace transporter.

[SirNitram]

An ISD has Subspace Sensors, range of 100LY...

This means, among other things, craft at Warp will be detected at a minimum of 100LY.. They're distorting subspace, and thus screwing with the sensors.

The evil side is, those sensors could be enough(I'm not saying they are, they could be) to shove a Warp-capable ship back to sublight speeds. Every ISD is now an Interdictor with multi-lightyear range!

[Cpt_Frank]

An ISD has Subspace Sensors, range of 100LY...

This means, among other things, craft at Warp will be detected at a minimum of 100LY.. They're distorting subspace, and thus screwing with the sensors.

The evil side is, those sensors could be enough(I'm not saying they are, they could be) to shove a Warp-capable ship back to sublight speeds. Every ISD is now an Interdictor with multi-lightyear range!

And since they have subspace sensors, they must be able to jam them!
That's what I'm trying to say ever since this thread has started.

[SPOOFE]

I hate these types of debates that focus more on a universe's fictional physics rather than the capabilities of that universe itself. Hell, the Culture would be a bunch of wimps if the physical makeup of their universe that Banks created didn't allow them access to, say, the Grid.

Feds know more about subspace tech? Possibly, but we don't know. It's the same as the old "Phasers might go through SW shields!"... there's no proof one way or the other. The only fair method of debate is assuming that the technology is - roughly - on equal terms (that is, it's just as safe to assume that the Fed shields would be unable to stop TL blasts unless we assume some parity 'tween the two).

Personally, I don't even like the "unable to detect a ship in hyperspace" thing for the Feds, but, well, that's unavoidable.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: I can find reference to Subspace communication of 100 LY range but not sensors - could I have a reference please.

SPOOFE : I would disagree that the debate is similar to the phaser cutting through SW since Im saying techs are equal approx - so subspace comns jammers dont work in ST so they wont in SW - that means an argument that says Comms jamming will stop subspace transporters is the equivalent of the phaser going through the shield, since that means comms jamming has no parity between the two universes.

Assuming the shields are similar - as we do (except in terms of power) means SS transports will penetrate imp shields.

On the subject having mor e knowledge of subspace tech its simple common sense - the Fed use it ever day but imps dont use it at all excep as a 3rd backup comms system.

If you give me backed up evidence for jammers or sensors based on subspace tech I will continue to look into the matter but so far I can find no such reference.

[Hendrake]

SirNitram: I can find reference to Subspace communication of 100 LY range but not sensors - could I have a reference please.

SPOOFE : I would disagree that the debate is similar to the phaser cutting through SW since Im saying techs are equal approx - so subspace comns jammers dont work in ST so they wont in SW - that means an argument that says Comms jamming will stop subspace transporters is the equivalent of the phaser going through the shield, since that means comms jamming has no parity between the two universes.

Assuming the shields are similar - as we do (except in terms of power) means SS transports will penetrate imp shields.

On the subject having mor e knowledge of subspace tech its simple common sense - the Fed use it ever day but imps dont use it at all excep as a 3rd backup comms system.

If you give me backed up evidence for jammers or sensors based on subspace tech I will continue to look into the matter but so far I can find no such reference.

Just my two cents:
Imperial procedures seems to include heavy jamming whenever a massive amount of ships are around, and it seems to be effective even against subspace comms and scanners (otherwise it would be ineffective). This might not be anaugh to block subspace transporters (personally I think it is, considering it is defined unstable) but it will cut down the range advantage as a several light years range without *very* accurate scanning would throw the explosives in deep space.

As for knowing about subspace-realted tech, they surely would notice the subspace traffic of comms, and so use it as standard in fleet engagements.

[Cpt_Frank]

Assuming the shields are similar - as we do (except in terms of power) means SS transports will penetrate imp shields.

The differences go beyond power. Ever seen a Star Destroyer remodulate the shield frequency?

[TheDarkling]

Cpt_Frank: No but I have seen being close to a sun destroy an ISDs armor and sensors - (Ref Heir to empire)
From that I conclude that Imp shields dont prevent simple solar radiation melting an Imp ships hull.

However some common sense is necessary when comparing the technology of the two universes.

Hendrake : That is true however Im not sure they block subspace comms and even if they did subspace comms blocking doesnt affect a subspace transporters.
The Feds-verse has comms blocking and this wasnt used so it must be assumed that comms blocking is ineffectual against subspace transporters.

The heavy Jamming is carried out by a Communications ship (Ref Return of the Jedi) so in a smiple Enterprise Vs Star Destroyer it wouldnt work - therefore ships would always have to be accompanied by a Comms ship and the implications for an invasion of Fed space are clear.

However there is no proof (thus far presented) that shows imps using subspace scanners - if that evidence surfaces then the issue enters deadlock - since there is no way of knowing how close sensor tech is to transporter tech, we do however know that comms tech is far enough removed to be a non-issue.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Unfortunatly the Feds never used Subspace transporters again.

[TheDarkling]

Grand Admiral Thrawn: Is that an admission that they would work?

[SirNitram]

Grand Admiral Thrawn: Is that an admission that they would work?

No, it's pointing out that it's only been seen once(I think), and never again. It seems to fall into lost-tech.

[TheDarkling]

Ah I simply said is it an admission because everyone on the thread has tried to disprove the theory instead of actually trying to figure out if it would work or not.

It seemed like he had lost hope that it could be stopped and fallen back on that fact.

The technology takes less than 24 hours to implement on any ship meaning that it could be easily replicated (no pun intended) - Im not arguing the Feds would use it, that would be a seperate discussion - Im trying to understand if it would work or not.

[Cpt_Frank]

Being close to a normal sun will not destroy an ISD.
Apparently you didn't read this site:
Just look at the Imperial shielding page for an explanation why this incident can't be used as an argument against Imperial shields.
And no, it is not an admission it will work:
If you have subspace communications systems, you will as a consequence be able to develop subspace sensors, and then the appropriate countermeasures!

The Grand Admiral merely tried to say the whole discussion is moot because the subspace transporter is a lost technology anyway.

[TheDarkling]

Imps did invent subspace scanners 25,000 years ago - however the Site redicules subspace tech thus implying that imps have moved beyond it apart from a backup comm system - not unreasonable given 25,000 years its very likely the tech is no longer in use.

As for the sun example - yes it is a special sun, however I was saying that since it isnt stated as such if I wanted to be foolish I would say "no it isnt", thus proving the need for common sense.

As an aside can scanners track items in hyperspace?

[SirNitram]

Imps did invent subspace scanners 25,000 years ago - however the Site redicules subspace tech thus implying that imps have moved beyond it apart from a backup comm system - not unreasonable given 25,000 years its very likely the tech is no longer in use.

As for the sun example - yes it is a special sun, however I was saying that since it isnt stated as such if I wanted to be foolish I would say "no it isnt", thus proving the need for common sense.

As an aside can scanners track items in hyperspace?

Yes, special sensors can track objects moving through hyperspace.

An ISD, however, has short-range comms that work on Subspace. Communications technology and Sensor technology are eternally linked(If nothing else, your sensor can be sending 'Ping' messages out and waiting for an echo), so it is not unreasonable to assume either side can't track objects with the technology employed in their comms.

As for the Transporter? I vote a classic 'Insuffiecient Data'. Not enough known. Of course, it probably works on the same principles as a normal one, and thus would most likely be stopped by the Imperial shields, the heavy metals in the hull, and the radiation generated by the reactors.

[TheDarkling]

Communications technology and Sensor technology are eternally linked

As for the Transporter? I vote a classic 'Insuffiecient Data'. Not enough known. Of course, it probably works on the same principles as a normal one, and thus would most likely be stopped by the Imperial shields, the heavy metals in the hull, and the radiation generated by the reactors.

Well standard comms blocking doesnt work against subspace transporters so your first statement supposts them working.

The second statement is incorrect since it is known that shields do not affect them, why would imperial shields? - that statement has little to back it up.
As was posted before we have to assume parity.

The other two may prevent the transporter from working information on that point isnt clear however tactically there are ways aroung this (using the transporter on planets alone or using the fighter bays as an entry point and so on.)

[Cpt_Frank]

Imperial shields could affect them because they do not work like ST shields.
However, speaking of the jamming again:
Maybe the Comm blockers of ST are simply too weak?
Imperial Starships feature sensor arrays which can unleash huge ammounts of garbage.
Now, subspace transporters transport things thru subspace.
Subspace jammers send garbage thru subspace.
LOGICAL CONCLUSION:
Subspace jamming affects subspace transporter.
Result: Since the SubTrans (cool abbreviation, he?) is unstable anyway,
the interference in the subspace will prevent it from functionning properly.

[TheDarkling]

Capt Frank going by your theory normal transporters might work since Star wars shields dont work the same.

Maybe the comm blockers are to weak - but no one has yet proved the empire still uses subspace tech other than for 3rd rank comms meaning that jamming of that would be weak - im not sure any jamming of subspace would occur since both sides wish to talk to their pilots - if they are using subspace comns, which they may no be - if they arent then no jamming needed.

Subspace comm jammers send garbage, as you put it through subspace and they dont affect the Subtrans (yes it is cool) therefore that argument also fails to convince.

You argument fails and if anything opens up the door for normal transporters.

[Cpt_Frank]

By saying Imperial shields don't work the same I didn't mean to say they will stop the subspace transporter in any case.
I just wanted to say it might be possible.
Btw, SW shields are regarded as an advancement from ST shields, so they will probably benefit from the same things ST shields do, but also feature other benefits.
If you watch ST shields: They always absorb.
SW shields react depending on the situation: sometimes, they absorb, sometimes, bolts simply ricochet, and sometimes, they don't show any visible reaction at all.
But right, we can't be sure they'd be stopped.

But: SW subspace jamming will certainly not be weak.
Consider this: Everyone in the galaxy has discarded not only the sensors and such, but also the jamming equipmen.
Now two ships meet:
ship 1 has only low powered third grade subspace systems, while ship 2 features high powerd ones.
Ship 1 is unable to jam ship 2: a serious weakness.
If Imperial ships now had this weakness, don't you think someone, the Rebels, for example, would have already exploited this weakness?
Right, they would. But we hear nothing of that.
Conclusion: Though subspace tech is only used for cheap short-range duties and such, probably there are still high-powered systems onboard, especially jamming systems.
Alternatively, perhaps the Imps deploy multi-stage jamming, which affects all kinds of sensors they know.

[TheDarkling]

Real World example:

Swat team uses Guns and Kevlar.

Crimnals according to you would use knives because they work better against kevlar.

In reality Criminals use guns aswell since they are still the better choice even though a specific defense against them is in use.

Subspace sensors have many disadvantages - look at the site, thats why they arent in use.

Why protect against something thats ancient at the expense of something that could be used in battle more often.

The empires army hasnt evolved from an earlier model it was made from scratch so it doesnt have any hang overs and even if the military had evolved a 25,000 year hang over is a little to long to believe.

Still no evidence of subspace jammers and maybe multi jamming takes place and maybe phaser arent affected by SW shields and maybe Geordi was right and Subtrans cant be stopped.

[SirNitram]

My, but your little argument is sad. Let's start at the beginning, shall we?

RL Example: Flawed. A knife has massive disadvantages compared to a gun, above and beyond technological advancement. In other words, try again.

Why protect against them? Hmmmm... Could it be they are still in use, and thus, the capability to jam an opponents tactical sensors would allow you to keep them from seeing ships making small jumps into combat? Why, yes, it would be. My gods you're not bright at all. Subspace is in use for communications, and communications jamming is common. Obvious conclusion: Imperials can jam subspace, inhibiting Starfleet's Subtrans, and all their other subspace tech.

Of course, your conclusion: They can't do it because I don't like it!!!

Some choice quotes from WEG on the ISD-I's subspace capabilities.

"A score of broadband transceivers monitor all communications from comlink and subspace bands to radionics frequencies, searching for transmissions "hidden" under natural X-ray emissions or background static."

"SFS Ranger Subspace Transceiver (Range is 100 light-years). It can monitor more than 300 different subspace frequencies simultaneously; by altering frequencies every tenth of a second, the Ranger scans the entire subspace spectrum in less than 3 hours. The powerful com-scan encryption computer can decode most intercepted messages within minutes."

Funny, doesn't look like no one uses it. Looks like it's a valuable tool, when they go to the trouble of equipping the Imperator with equipment to scan the entire realm of subspace in a matter of hours.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram:

Please no need for personal insults.

Now Cpt_Frank was putting forward a what if situation where all subspace equipment was gone - I was responding to that, if you didnt read the post to which I was responding it was hardly my fault.

The evidence you display proves that Subspace comms still occur - comms blocking doesnt affect SubTrans meaning that if thats what Imps use then the Subtrans defeats jamming.

Subspace comms jamming also doesnt stop people using a warp drive meaning that your conclusion is also flawed based on evidence from the show - DS9 episode 1 among others.

The subspace comms is the 3rd in the lines of comms usage after holonet and Hyperspace comms so it isnt exactly vital since its a back up system.

I responded in a non hostile manner - please study and attempt to replicate.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The evidence you display proves that Subspace comms still occur - comms blocking doesnt affect SubTrans meaning that if thats what Imps use then the Subtrans defeats jamming.

Wrong. Feds never jammed.

[SirNitram]

SirNitram:

Please no need for personal insults.

Now Cpt_Frank was putting forward a what if situation where all subspace equipment was gone - I was responding to that, if you didnt read the post to which I was responding it was hardly my fault.

The evidence you display proves that Subspace comms still occur - comms blocking doesnt affect SubTrans meaning that if thats what Imps use then the Subtrans defeats jamming.

Prove comms jamming was in use at the time. Jamming of any kind is -extremely- rare in Star Trek, and unheard of before the Dominion War.

Subspace comms jamming also doesnt stop people using a warp drive meaning that your conclusion is also flawed based on evidence from the show - DS9 episode 1 among others.

In ANH, the jamming was powerful enough to warp space, so that maneuverability was actually reduced. Henceforth, I do not consider it an impossibility that subspace jamming will make life hell for Fed ships.

The subspace comms is the 3rd in the lines of comms usage after holonet and Hyperspace comms so it isnt exactly vital since its a back up system.

Please prove it is a backup and not standard for short-range comms. I see no reference to it being backup, merely shorter ranged.

I responded in a non hostile manner - please study and attempt to replicate.

Your proposal is considered and rejected, on the basis of you being stupid.