Dishonest Warsie Claims

[His Divine Shadow]

Get a couple squadrons together (or even one), and fire off proton torpedoes.

What kind of protons? How many? Where?

Particle shields will go down on the first or second volley. Target bridge and then individual gun turrets.

This particle shield ray shield sepration thing has been taken too far, just what on earth do you think is absorbing the energy released by the torpedoes, the ray shields ofcourse.
There is only one shield strenght too, and in the books there is only one shield strenght reported, they are obviously as one shield in all regards except in that particle shields handle KE and momentum and energy shields other energy, like thermal and such.

Oh, and I've got a buttload of evidence behind me .

Really?
No doubt from those books based on the x-wing games, horrible stuff.

Pg. 69: Not that they'd be able to do much to the Destroyer with fighter- wattage laser cannons or proton torpedoes; Destroyer shields and armor were too thick.

(ref: Shadows of the Empire)

I'd rate this one higher.
This also shows that ordinary torpedoes aren't much of a threat, they probably need high-yield torpedoes for attacking VSD+ sized ships.
I have some preliminary calculations so far that puts high-yield torpedoes at a minimum of 2GT and a high of 30GT.

[Kamakazie Sith]

No I implied the post was a troll as a joke. Dear god man, did you have your sense of hunour surgically removed or something.

Now again, do you have any examples of your own? After all the "outrageous Okana" is so well known, what would be it's Warsie counterpart? And Doomriser was able to supply a small montian of quotes in the Dishonest Trekkie thread, so surely if it's so widespread among Warsies as well, you can easily do the same... right?

Actually I wasn't sure what you were refering to. It's not that I don't find it funny but I wanted to be sure.....moving on now.

UGH! This thread is meant as a joke! However, if anyone has heard any dishonest warsie claims I was interested in hearing it.

For example "One TIE fighter is enough to wipe out all of Starfleet"

I am not trying to claim that warsie dishonesty is just as widespread or anything like that, how did you come to this conclusion? Why can't you just participate in the thread or stay out if you don't have anything to offer it?? No offense, but you seem to be offended by this thread.

Hardly, I'm just wondering about the relative ratio for Mad Trekkie to Mad Warsie. I also thought you might have had few examples for us to poke fun at. Most of the daft ones I've seen have been lack of logic in thier arguments rather than outright lies or daft evidence. For lack of logic Look up Transcends posts to ASVS, the guy was so far short of a working braincell he actually managed to post a "Concession Accepted" to himself.

As to the Humour, your reply was so poe-faced I had to wonder how serious you were being. Lighten up, go kick a moron or something - here borrow mine * pushes Timmy forward*

Ugh forgive my lack of personality yesterday...it had been a bad day.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Well it could, it would just take a really, really long time.

Jesus Fucking a telephone do you even know what the fuck a means?

Actually I do, and I put the " " at Howedars post, which was obviously a joke.....a silly one.

[Howedar]

Yes, they can take on ISDs, in numbers.

Get a couple squadrons together (or even one), and fire off proton torpedoes. Particle shields will go down on the first or second volley. Target bridge and then individual gun turrets.

Oh, and I've got a buttload of evidence behind me .

I'd love to see it, so long as it isn't EU. In ROTJ fighters are totally useless against shielded starships. ProTorps barely dented the surface of the Death Star. No canon evidence for X-wings with more than one set of torps.
I agree that a concentrated attack on once part of the shield by lots of warheads may have some effect, but in SW fighters just aren't capital ship-killers.

Why do you think they invented the B-Wing? The B-Wing (seen in ROTJ) is not a dogfighter (look at the laser configuration--HORRIBLE for dogfighting). Why else have ion cannons on it? They are also butt-slow. They are definitely capital ship killers.

Oh, and official information is quite acceptable, so long as it does not contradict canon.

SW fighters CAN, HAVE, and WILL be a threat to capital ships.

I believe the novelization (canon, IIRC) states that each X-Wing only had a single pair of torpedoes because they were in low supply.

Again, Ackbar about the Rebel fleet in ROTJ: "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers!"
The ISDs present were obviously not threatened by the Rebel fighters present, but indeed threatened the fighters greatly.

[Rob Wilson]

Ugh forgive my lack of personality yesterday...it had been a bad day.

I know what you mean, Still all water under the bridge. (People, can't you feel the love? ) Lets just go back to trying to find the stupidist Wars post. I've opened the account with Trannies "Concession Acccepted" to himself. Any higher bids, anyone?

[Rob Wilson]

A TIE Fighter wouldn't be able to wipe out all of Starfleet. It doesn't have a hyperdrive.

Thief! Thief, someone stop that man.

Oh come one, that argument was around when new chapters of Conquest were being posted!

I know, they used a TIme Machine to jump forward in time to steal my briliant punchline, then in a fight to the death they narrowly escaped whilst I had sex with Samantha Mumba, all the time powering my fantastic Futuristic mansion by using H.G. Wells spinning coffin as a turbine.

It's true folks, it is. That's how it really happened.

[ArmorPierce]

one second saying that the Federation can not copy Star Wars hyperdrives and the next saying that all the Empire has to do is capture an intact slipstream drive(from the SCW) and they would have the slip stream drive equipted on their ships.

[CmdrWilkens]

one second saying that the Federation can not copy Star Wars hyperdrives and the next saying that all the Empire has to do is capture an intact slipstream drive(from the SCW) and they would have the slip stream drive equipted on their ships.

Someone claimed this? Why would the Empire even want to reverse engineer it when they've got a near perfect intragalactic system already.

[SPOOFE]

one second saying that the Federation can not copy Star Wars hyperdrives and the next saying that all the Empire has to do is capture an intact slipstream drive(from the SCW) and they would have the slip stream drive equipted on their ships.

The problem with Fed ships installing hyperdrives on their vessels is that they simply can't mount them right next to the warp core. They'd need to completely redesign their ships to incorporate them... they'd need to spend years testing it and developing new types of sensors and forms of navigation in order to keep from being smashed to pieces whilst in hyperspace.

The argument for the Imperial side rarely revolves around Slipstream, but Warp... the idea being that if the Imperials can capture a Federation vessel, they can reverse engineer their subspace sensors to detect other ships in Warp. This would require far less work on the vessel to incorporate.

An analogy: Installing a hyperdrive is similar to putting a new engine in a car, while installing some subspace sensors would require about the same amount of work as installing a new CD deck into the dashboard (roughly).

[CmdrWilkens]

Greatest ever Warsie dishonest claim I've heard was from Mr. Al Gore...I mean Wes Hutchings, god of the cat people, who informed ASVS that The Millenium Falcon fired something other than concussion missiles at the DS2 reactor because his interpretation of the event showed how the sound efect clearly proved a laser weapon being fired.

[Vendetta]

Really?
No doubt from those books based on the x-wing games, horrible stuff.

Pg. 69: Not that they'd be able to do much to the Destroyer with fighter- wattage laser cannons or proton torpedoes; Destroyer shields and armor were too thick.

(ref: Shadows of the Empire)

I'd rate this one higher.
This also shows that ordinary torpedoes aren't much of a threat, they probably need high-yield torpedoes for attacking VSD+ sized ships.
I have some preliminary calculations so far that puts high-yield torpedoes at a minimum of 2GT and a high of 30GT.

Oh come on.. You can't diss the X-Wing books and then hold up, of all things, Shadows of the Empire, one of the most godawful things written about SW, well, ever, as a decent counter.

The X-Wing books are about the best portrayal of what it might take for a fighter group to dent a capship, a full torpedo salvo from a full squadron of Y-Wings is only just enough to scare a Lancer away, 12 X-Wings firing both barrels can knock out an Interdictor's shields, but an Interdictor is much less scary than a Star Destroyer.

If you had several squadrons all firing at once, you might make an impression on an ISD, but it would still only drop one shield arc, and whilst you'd then be able to nibble at the turrets on that arc, you'd have to stray far too close to do so..

A full wing of 72 fighters might be able to nibble an ISD to death, but there'd not be many left at the end of it.

[His Divine Shadow]

Ugh forgive my lack of personality yesterday...it had been a bad day.

I know what you mean, Still all water under the bridge. (People, can't you feel the love? ) Lets just go back to trying to find the stupidist Wars post. I've opened the account with Trannies "Concession Acccepted" to himself. Any higher bids, anyone?

Link?

[Eleas]

"Oh come on.. You can't diss the X-Wing books and then hold up, of all things, Shadows of the Empire, one of the most godawful things written about SW, well, ever, as a decent counter."

This is pretty stupid. When Official #1 and Canon agrees, and Official #2 is being contrary just because he feels like it, we give fuck all about Official. Literary quality doesn't come into it. If it did, Shadows of the Empire, the Black Fleet Crisis and the Rogue Squadron series would be inadmissable by default.

"The X-Wing books are about the best portrayal of what it might take for a fighter group to dent a capship,"

<snip>

Canon contradicts it. And good riddance.

[CmdrWilkens]

"Oh come on.. You can't diss the X-Wing books and then hold up, of all things, Shadows of the Empire, one of the most godawful things written about SW, well, ever, as a decent counter."

This is pretty stupid. When Official #1 and Canon agrees, and Official #2 is being contrary just because he feels like it, we give fuck all about Official. Literary quality doesn't come into it. If it did, Shadows of the Empire, the Black Fleet Crisis and the Rogue Squadron series would be inadmissable by default.

Black Fleet Crisis was excellent, all right Shield of Lies sucked but not the other two.

[Eleas]

"Black Fleet Crisis was excellent, all right Shield of Lies sucked but not the other two."

I disagree. Michael P.Kube-McDowell needs to learn (1) what characterizations are and (2) how to write them.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Why does everyone use the "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers!" quote as the basis of their argument that the Rebel starfighters can't destroy capital ships? The Battle of Endor was a very unique situation. While the B-Wing and all of the other Rebel starfighters are very capable of taking out an ISD, this situation wasn't the same. There were TWENTY ISDs along with an Executor-class Star Destroyer, that is capable of taking on entire fleets, as opposed to the normal ISD per star system. It is said that a single ISD can control an entire star system, and that more than one ISD in a star system means that system is a raging warzone. So the Rebels designed their starfighters to be used in hit-and-run tactics against these patrolling capital ships. Not for freaking twenty of them all in one fleet with an Executor, and the unending amount of TIEs to boot. Twenty ISDs is unheard of, even for protecting a flagship, such as Vader's fleet in TESB. There were only five accompanying the Executor, and even that was an overkill. However, those five ISDs might have been used just for the planetary assault on Hoth. I'm not sure if that is normally Vader's fleet. The twenty ISDs in Endor were gathered merely to ensure that the Rebels would be utterly crushed. So when the Rebel fleet moved towards that Star Destroyer fleet, they had to desperately alter their tactics and spread themselves out all over the place to turn the attention of the TIEs and most of the guns on them instead of their crucial capital ships. They were merely drawing fire and doing the best they could to prevent the loss of their heavy-hitting capital ships in that highly-unusual situation. So you can't use the Battle of Endor as a basis for your "Rebel starfighters are useless against capital ships" theory.

[SPOOFE]

Why does everyone use the "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers!" quote as the basis of their argument that the Rebel starfighters can't destroy capital ships?

To be honest, Buckaroo, I ain't seen anyone use that line as the explanation.

[Mr Bean]

I think its just people did not like the X-Wing Series of books and just happen to like bashing them (I liked em though)

[Akm72]

The twenty ISDs in Endor were gathered merely to ensure that the Rebels would be utterly crushed.

However large it was, the Imperial fleet at Endor was not intended to destroy the Rebel fleet, or even engage it directly, but to simply stop the Rebels from escaping. Crushing the rebel fleet was the role alloted to the DS2.

You argument is that the rebel starfighters were only ineffective against the capital ships due to the numbers of ISDs involved? What was stopping the rebels concentrating their fighter wings against a small number of ISDs? Why did the immense force of imperial TIEs not achieve even a single kill against the rebel capital ships, most of which are significantly weaker than the Imperial ships.

[Zoink]

The goal of the emperor was to destroy the rebels at endor. He did this by laying a brilliant trap. The rebels were fooled into believing that they were launching a surprise attack.

I would suggest that the size of the imperial fleet, and the reason it did not move to attack, was to ensure that the rebels stayed and fought. Once the Death Star became operational, and the rebels saw the trap, Akbar said that the must retreat, implying that this option WAS available to them. Lando convinces them otherwise; he believes that there was a chance of victory... this chance was partially given to them by the emperor.

If the emperor had stationed a much larger fleet (say ten times larger), and the moved to attack, the rebels would most likely have retreated. If they retreated then they wouldn't be destroyed.

So the emperor was hoping for victory by giving the rebels a "defeatable" sized fleet to fight. Arrogance would of course ensure their victory...

[Darth Yoshi]

The fighters used in ROTJ by the Imps were unshielded, meaning even a glancing hit can destroy them. Ergo, it's no wonder they didn't take out any of the capships, since all Rebel fighters have some form of shielding, allowing them to take out the Imperial fighters.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Tie fighters will devestate entire ST fleets.

[Howedar]

The fighters used in ROTJ by the Imps were unshielded, meaning even a glancing hit can destroy them. Ergo, it's no wonder they didn't take out any of the capships, since all Rebel fighters have some form of shielding, allowing them to take out the Imperial fighters.

TIEs did quite well against said Rebel fighters at Yavin, and those were just standard TIEs.

[TheDarkling]

Grand Admiral Thrawn: They arent even shielded, an area affect torp blast would devestate them.

Please Prove or Retract.

If you were being serious.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Grand Admiral Thrawn: They arent even shielded, an area affect torp blast would devestate them.

Please Prove or Retract.

If you were being serious.

Did you miss the whole point of this thread?