DWvsATJ commentary thread.

[Ted C]

Phasers can adjust their aim ("The Vengeance Factor"[TNG]) by the fact that Riker fires the phaser off-center.

In addition to the crushing rebuttals Mike has already delivered on this claim, I'd like to add that we've seen Picard, Riker, and Worf visiting the holodeck for target practice; an activity that wouldn't be necessary if a hand-phaser had any significant auto-aiming abilities.

[Connor MacLeod]

Phasers can adjust their aim ("The Vengeance Factor"[TNG]) by the fact that Riker fires the phaser off-center.

In addition to the crushing rebuttals Mike has already delivered on this claim, I'd like to add that we've seen Picard, Riker, and Worf visiting the holodeck for target practice; an activity that wouldn't be necessary if a hand-phaser had any significant auto-aiming abilities.

Don't forget Guinan

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, don't some models of phaser rifle have scopes and/or sights as well? If they were auto targeting why did they need scopes?

[Ender]

So did the boy shoot hsi load in one round or something?

[CmdrWilkens]

Hey Wilkens! WB. Glad to have some more of the rational side of ASVS back here

Its good to be back though it seems the world hasn't gotten any more logical in my abscence.

[DocHorror]

So did the boy shoot hsi load in one round or something?

I think that was his whole argument. Pretty pisspoor really when compared to some of the stuff other trolls have tried to argue.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hey Wilkens! WB. Glad to have some more of the rational side of ASVS back here

Its good to be back though it seems the world hasn't gotten any more logical in my abscence.

You should have seen all the Jedi Vs threads

[Ghost Rider]

Hey Wilkens! WB. Glad to have some more of the rational side of ASVS back here

Its good to be back though it seems the world hasn't gotten any more logical in my abscence.

You should have seen all the Jedi Vs threads

Only if you wear protective mind-goggles, Wilkens.

Some things will truly both frighten and mystify you.

[CmdrWilkens]

You should have seen all the Jedi Vs threads

Only if you wear protective mind-goggles, Wilkens.

Some things will truly both frighten and mystify you.

I've lived through a rebirth of TOWNMNBS, as well as CockRocket and helped fight the dread butt pirate DarkStar. I don't think anything will ever really top any of those experiences.

[Ghost Rider]

You should have seen all the Jedi Vs threads

Only if you wear protective mind-goggles, Wilkens.

Some things will truly both frighten and mystify you.

I've lived through a rebirth of TOWNMNBS, as well as CockRocket and helped fight the dread butt pirate DarkStar. I don't think anything will ever really top any of those experiences.

Very true...but I think most of regular insane trektards made more sense, then most of the fanwhore screaming of the Jedi vs threads have inhabited(they at least present calcs from the ass...a few of the fanwhores believe because they say so...it's obviously the unbiased truth).

Seriously while they aren't as resilent or even as persistent as either of the greats, these butt-monkeys certainly try to live up to a level of dumb I've only experienced in a rare con where one of them thing using a large word garners respect.

Nothing to frighten but certainly of strange wonder.

[CmdrWilkens]

I've lived through a rebirth of TOWNMNBS, as well as CockRocket and helped fight the dread butt pirate DarkStar. I don't think anything will ever really top any of those experiences.

Very true...but I think most of regular insane trektards made more sense, then most of the fanwhore screaming of the Jedi vs threads have inhabited(they at least present calcs from the ass...a few of the fanwhores believe because they say so...it's obviously the unbiased truth).

Seriously while they aren't as resilent or even as persistent as either of the greats, these butt-monkeys certainly try to live up to a level of dumb I've only experienced in a rare con where one of them thing using a large word garners respect.

Nothing to frighten but certainly of strange wonder.

*Sigh*

You know I actually do miss some of those 'tards just because they provide a nice distraction from my day to day boredom of plotting world domination.

[Ghost Rider]

I've lived through a rebirth of TOWNMNBS, as well as CockRocket and helped fight the dread butt pirate DarkStar. I don't think anything will ever really top any of those experiences.

Very true...but I think most of regular insane trektards made more sense, then most of the fanwhore screaming of the Jedi vs threads have inhabited(they at least present calcs from the ass...a few of the fanwhores believe because they say so...it's obviously the unbiased truth).

Seriously while they aren't as resilent or even as persistent as either of the greats, these butt-monkeys certainly try to live up to a level of dumb I've only experienced in a rare con where one of them thing using a large word garners respect.

Nothing to frighten but certainly of strange wonder.

*Sigh*

You know I actually do miss some of those 'tards just because they provide a nice distraction from my day to day boredom of plotting world domination.

Yes...from most of what I've seen...the current crop are really at best pretenders(AJT here) or just one shots(Many of the fanwhores).

I dunno...would be nice to see one that doesn't babble into complete nonsense(a good too many fanwhores spend their load...leave, come back a day/week/month later with the EXACT same argument...so all you have to do is cut and paste).

Course the most amusing part is that the fanwhores angered Mike enough to create the fantasy Forum, which was the Comic, Anime, Magic forum(search for Spiderman vs Jedi thread for the lovely details)

[Balrog]

>.>

<.<

I think you guys scared the poor bugger away

[Darth Wong]

>.>

<.<

I think you guys scared the poor bugger away

I think he just realized he'd bitten off more than he could chew, and that Darkstar's arguments were not nearly as devastating as he expected them to be. Serves him right for believing Darkstar's opinion of himself.

Too bad he wasn't man enough to admit he was wrong, though. Now that would have been a surprise.

[Jason von Evil]

So whats the debate score so far, Mike? 99 million to zero?

[Darth Wong]

So whats the debate score so far, Mike? 99 million to zero?

This one doesn't even warrant a notch on the baseball bat. What kind of a chickenshit drops out of sight after just ONE exchange?

[Jason von Evil]

True. But what is your debating record anyways?

[Howedar]

I'm speaking from my own experience here, but it is only rarely that a victor is readily apparent to those from both sides. You almost always think you won the debate, but the masses watching from the sidelines don't necessarily agree.

[Darth Wong]

I'm speaking from my own experience here, but it is only rarely that a victor is readily apparent to those from both sides. You almost always think you won the debate, but the masses watching from the sidelines don't necessarily agree.

True, although it's easier to win a debate when you're dealing with objective data and scientific matters (as opposed to political debates, which usually go on endlessly). There's less "wiggle room" unless the audience is ignorant.

[Ender]

Sorting through that kind of bull, along with a large amount of homework and social activities,

I suppose if you strech the definition of "social activity" beyond the point of breaking you could classify your Harry Potter RPG as that, yes...

made it difficult to finish this even as soon as this.

You made a commitment, quit making excuses.

But, know your enemy as you know yourself, and victory will always be yours. To that end:

It also helps to know your material. Which you clearly don't.

Your re-definition of canon ignores public statements made by Lucasfilm, not to mention Lucas himself who stated quite clearly that the EU "intrudes" upon his universe everywhere but the films themselves. That's exactly what we've all said since day one; the EU matters but can't override the films.

My only quarrel with this is that you claim the Empire uses things like neutronium hulls, but we've seen and heard no evidence for this in the movies. Seems like you are overriding the canon.

Actually canon sources confirm the presence of neutronium in the hulls. Tough luck there bucko.

Your total ignorance of all things mechanical shows through again. I can take a thin rod of the highest strength steel you can find, put a crystal on the end of it, and do the exact same thing.

Then, are you saying that durasteel is no better than normal, modern steel?

So you take analogies as literal now?

If you could do the same thing with modern steel, doesn't this mean that the Empire's building materials are no better than ours?

No, it means the Empire follows the laws of physics. Go look up "cross sectional area" and"stress strain cruve" on google.

Fact is is that the smaller the cross section, the greater the stress placed on it will be, thus it will bend easier.

You even support my previous statement by accepting the quote as a part of the debate, instead of dismissing it out of hand, and therefore part of the canon (which it is not).

No, he addressed it because you included it, on the premiss that you had realized your eror in trying to discount the EU. he assumed you had learned your error, clearly this assumption was in error.

Fascinating.

Yes, i find the fact you included a red herring then jumped on him for responding to it interesting as well.

By a max-yield blast which does the same to a Klingon of probably twice the mass, thus proving that it's obviously a chain-reaction weapon. Also note that the reaction takes a while to eat through her body. None of this is news to anyone.

Yes: The Star Trek Encyclopedia defines a phaser as a "directed nadion beam", which disrupts the atomic bindings of matter. What exactly IS a blaster, then? From what is seen, it could be some sort of simple plasma-based weapon, though that doesn't really work given how refined the beams are.

So you ignore the point about phasers and start talking about blasters. Genius Holmes. Now address the point about Phasers being chain reaction instead of DET weapons.

Nevertheless, no matter how a blaster works, the phaser is a canon demonstration of "desentigration", which is still an energy blast and therefore requires a good deal of it to do the things within it's demonstrated capabilities. It takes 2.7 kilojoules alone to vaporize a single kilogram of water at 37 degrees C, or 98.6 degrees (In other words, standard human body temperature). Multiply that by 68 (weight of a reasonably average adult human male in kilograms), and you get a minimum power rating of 202.5 kilowatts (or 0.2 megawatts).

Did you happen to miss the fact that the theory you are attacking proposes that a chain reaction allows them to achieve that effect without expending that much energy? You need to address the theory in your rebuttals, not sidestep it.

The sad truth is, all energy weapons work on the basis of a chain reaction. That is, the disruption of matter interactions, whether it to be stunning or vaporizing. Therefore, there is no real reason for phasers to be set apart from other energy weapons, or vica-versa. Aside from their means of power (nadion beams).

You are truely a stupid bastard.

A chain reaction is self propegating. It will continue to build even after the initial input is halted. Vaporization and any DET effect is not. Those will level off or halt will stop as soon as the input of energy stops.

Compare the reaction inside a nuclear reactor to a coal reactor. If left to its own devices (and we ignore the saftey designs to prevent that), the energy of the nuclear reactor will rise until all the fuel is spent. However, with a coal furnace, once you stop applying the burners to it, the energy produced will hold steady until fuel runs out.

Since the norandium was SET ON FIRE, it's ridiculous to credit it to phaser power. Do you believe that the careless smoker who started the BC wildfires had a cigarette capable of enormous quantities of energy output, comparable to the entire fire?

The remaining norandium was set on fire from the phaser blasts. True, it does no good to my argument, but it does not hurt, either.

So it was just a red herring? I thought you said you were going to use logic.

It also does not indicate that phasers are powerful, hence it is useless for establishing your position. However, when you consider the fact that thin-walled metal packing crates are routinely used for (impregnable) cover during firefights, it's pretty obvious that phasers are useless against certain materials.

And blasters can just blow through any old thing, right? Usually during those firefights, the phasers are set within the range of "stun" to "kill", not "vaporize". Why? Because there's no need to use that much energy out of your weapons if your targets are people, not obstructions. It does not mean phasers are weak-It's simple common sense to save the energy of your weapons if needed.

If your target is hiding behind an obstruction, it is simple common sense to dial up the power to destroy it. the fact taht they don't is telling.

Yes, phasers are very effective against organic tissue. However, they are also almost totally ineffective against starship bulkheads, thin-walled packing crates, etc. Meanwhile, Imperial blasters blow chunks out of walls on starships and (according to the ANH novelization) they can be used to blow a hole right through a DS wall. In fact, both the boarding of Tantive IV and the taking of the DS detention centre were characterized by such levels of wall damage that the entire area was quickly choked with smoke and debris.

Considering that we've seen phasers used to obliterate rock walls (ST:I), blow apart control panels ("Interface"), and blast through thick power cables to a ship's main reactor (ST:FC), I feel fairly certain they'd be able to blow holes in walls.

And the fact that those instances are few and far between, while blasters do that as a matter of routine, means nothing to you?

Your assumption that the phasers in question were at full power is erroneous, as I've already pointed out. As for Imperial blasters, the most powerful we've seen them is, indeed, blowing holes in walls. Which doesn't require larger amounts of energy than vaporizing people. It probably takes even less.

Which would be great, if we ever saw phasers vaporize a person through DET.

Oh, were those durasteel[*i] walls the stormtroopers were shooting at? That were no better than modern-day steel?

Your lack of reading comprehension skills shines through again.

Also note that battledroids have chest armour in excess of an inch thick; far more than the packing crates which are used as cover in ST phaser firefights, yet they are blown away easily by SW blaster fire. And of course, there's Han Solo, using his hand blaster to blow torso-sized chunks out of the Docking Bay 94 walls prior to the Falcon's lift-off in ANH.

And yet, they, too, are easily pierced by blasters. With a single shot.

Yes, highlighting the power of blasters. What part of this do you not get? Even if they were just modern steel, that's a lot.

The ANH novel goes, "a dug-out pit... holding what could only marginally be refered to as a starship."

Another one of Bobby's old lies that was blown apart years ago. You could have alteast done some research and picked arguments that hadn't been stomped into the dirt and spat upon kid.

Docking bay ninety-four, Luke noted, was no different in appearance from a host of other grandiosely named docking baysscattered throughout Mos Eisley. It consisted mostly of an enterance rampway and an enormous pit gouged from the rocky soil.

So the "rocky soil" is describing the area surrounding the docking bay, not the way itself. By the by, I love the way you cut out 2 paragraphs there in your quote in an attempt to strengthen your position. The "Lying by editing the hell out of your sources" is one of Bobby's more recent and most dishonest tactics.

So, Han was blowing out chunks of what amounts to DIRT. Packed dirt, but dirt nonetheless. Most likely held together by cement or a reasonable fascimile thereof.

You just love contradicting yourself don't you? though it's nice to see you ae atleast trying to appear open minded atleast. Yes, a hand gun was blowing torso sized holes out of concrete. You really have no idea how impressive that is, do you?

All of this is canon, even if you use Darkstar's bullshit definition. Suck it up, kiddo.

Thank you for supporting me.

He isn't supporting you moron, he is mocking you.

Perhaps you missed the part about how they "ripped long gashes in metal surfaces". Angle of incidence obviously plays a part here.

No doubt it does, but it doesn't change the fact they still bounced off mirrored surfaces.

And grass, making your point moot at best. Thanks for the concession though. Tell me, are you actually trying to prove blasters are better?

That is not the definition of a laser, dumb-ass. Light is already pure energy. Moreover, the behaviour of blasters is totally unlike a real laser. One could go blue in the face listing the differences.

Yes. However, if it isn't a laser, then what is it?

Who knows, it isn't relevent here. They are red bolts of doom. Other then that it doesn't matter.

"Blasters and lasers seem to work exactly the same?" Have you ever seen a high-powered laser in action? I have. They are not even remotely similar.

If you'll review the post, I was refering to the shipboard turboLASERS the Empire employs. Please stop trying to lead away from the main subject.

Reviewing the post, that is not the case, you seem to be trying to indicate that blasters are true lasers and that simply covering red shirts in mirrors would stop them.

Even at high power, they are useless against packing crates, which are routinely used as cover in firefights. All you need is body armour made of packing crate material, and you're good to go.

I've already addressed this.

No, you admitted that combat settings don't allow for penetration of heavy materials.

Either that, or:

1) They have poor quality control, or
2) Their emitters point slightly downwards from the factory, so you can hold your hand in a more ergonomically comfortable position while firing forwards
3) They are manually adjustable, and Riker likes his to point down

An auto-aiming system is more preposterous than all of those explanations in light of the fact that they so often miss even at close range (see "Conspiracy" for a good example).

Pointed at a 45 degree angle? That's not ergonomic-That's insane.

So is the current phaser design.

Considering that phasers have been shown to fire perfectly straight from the barrel, as well as at an angle, it seems inconceivable that there are phasers pointed either way. Thus, variable axis targeting. Perhaps an advanced auto-aim system-There are other explanations. But, in light of the facts, it seems a logical conclusion.

Why do phasers have scopes and sights if they are auto-aiming? Why do we see the crew of the Enterprise go do target practice onthe holodeck if they are autoaiming?

On firepower: you have failed to establish any advantage in firepower; in fact, one of your own quotes describes blasters tearing long gashes in starship bulkheads; something no phaser has ever been seen to do. While the chain-reaction "eating away" effect of phasers is really neat, it is of little tactical usefulness against enemies wearing body-covering armour.

First, I've addressed the gashes,

No, you didn't. You ignored them, thus conceeding the point. but you didnt' address them.

and the phaser blast effects. Oh, and the power settings, as well. And Stormtrooper armor can be pierced by a single shot from a blaster, which was shown repeatedly throughout the Original Trilogy. Given that I've established phasers have demonstrated greater power output (vaporizations, anyone?), I sincerely doubt that armor provides any real protection from a phaser.

Except you haven't established that phasers have higher power output, you've only established you ahve zero conceptual understanding of physics.

On versatility: leave the Swiss army knives to the Boy Scouts. Soldiers need a reliable, powerful weapon that gets the job done. A blasters can stun someone or it can blow a hole clean through a wall if necessary; that's all you need. The fact that you can use a phaser to heat up a rock is great for camping trips, but I'd rather be the guy with the better gun.

And the fact a phaser has shown itself able to vaporize people, blow through obstructions, and "auto-aim", not to mention the variable settings, shows who would have the better gun. A blaster hasn't. And neither have you.

It has never vaporized people through DET and is target dependent which makes it a weakness, the huge damage settings are never used in combt, auto aiming is contradicted by the evidence, and blasters also have variable settings albeit not as many.

Blaster is the superior weapon.

On range: you have not even ATTEMPTED to establish greater range for phasers. In fact, we have seen SW blasters being used at ranges of several kilometres (AOTC); when have we seen this kind of range being used with ST phasers?

You are correct. No comment.

So basically, you tried to slip that little advantage in there and hoped it would be unnoticed?

Against packing crates, phasers are useless. If stormtrooper armour is as tough as a packing crate, the Feddies might as well throw their phasers away and wave the white flag (leaving aside their enormous combined-arms advantage, of course).

Stormtrooper armor is hardly as strong as a packing crate, if a single shot from a blaster pierces it.

If you had come anywhere close to establishing superior phaser firepower you might have a point. Unfortunatly your calc and canon statements from DS9 still point to phasers being weaker.

Only thing you have demonstrated is that you don't know physics, and that you don't know how to debate.

On Feddie surrender: Like the Federation would surrender to scum wearing hopelessly thin, pitiful armor, with aim worse than a one eyed monkey.

Hyperbole in the face of observed capabilities will do nothing for you.

Prove that the average Starfleet grunt's aim is better than that of a Stormtrooper. A Starfleet detachment was overrun by a bunch of screaming idiot Jem'Hadar charging through a chokepoint JUST AFTER THEY WERE RESUPPLIED WITH FRESH WEAPONS; that is totally unacceptable. Also look at the pitiful Starfleet grunt performance during the boarding action in "Nemesis", where they were literally a stone's throw away and couldn't hit the Viceroy as he calmly walked across the hallway

A Starfleet detachment outnumbered ten to one, with most of it's troops exhausted after a grueling 120 days on that rock. Fresh weapons wouldn't do as much good as you'd think.

Preformance of the recon marines in Iraq after being under harsher climate conditions says you are full of shit.

On Nemesis: Hardly WALKED. He dove for the chute while under cover. True, a Fleeter should have been able to get him, but it's somewhat hard when you're busy holding off a couple of Remans firing on your position in a narrow corridor.

So where was your famed auto aiming then?

I'd like to see a Stormtrooper do it, despite the fact that they have consistently (consistently!) missed targets relatively unobstructed, at only a few meters range (Firing seemingly randomly while boarding the Tantive IV, ANH.

You mean where they swiftly routed the rebels?
Are you intent on disproving your own point for us?

Luke, Han and Chewie, in ANH, in at least three firefights.

Where they were being allowed to escape?

The escape from Bespin, TESB, etc.).

Where they were agan being allowed to escape?

Quite pathetic. It's clear that you don't recognize how to connect evidence to conclusion properly. Your glaring scientific ignorance is also quite clear in your use of Darkstar's moronic "durasteel rod" argument and your claim that blasters and lasers work identically.

And it's clear how you use simple assumptions in your arguments and pass them off as "facts". There is no evidence that Starfleet phasers are blocked by packing containers:

Except for the shows of course.

You use the assumption that they were all their full power level in those instances

We never see those high settings in combat, even when it would greatly benefit them to use them, so what makes you think they can? It may deplete the power pack to quckly or something.

and ignore glaring evidence that phaser can indeed blow through obstructions just as easily (if not better than) a blaster.

Yes, once in a blue moon, never in combat. that should really tell you something.

Given that their demonstrations of "power" are little better than setting a small fire to Leia's arm,

A shot that didn't hit her, as there was blood on Han's palm and a blaster shot would have cauterized it. They hit the blast door which, since it is a blast door shrugged off the shot quite easily. At best it grazed her. And keep in mind the storimes were under orders to capture the rebels there again.

blowing up walls of dirt and concrete,

I already exposed that lie for what it is.

and piercing "strong" Imperial armor with only a single shot,

They vape a few inches of droid armor in AOTC, what part of this do you not get? Even if that was just iron that's alot of power.

and the fact that we've never seen them show they can do more than that,

They blew chunks the size of a persons head out of metal walls in ESB.

it's difficult to believe that blasters have the power to vaporize anyone or anything of appreciable size and strength. If they did, surely we would have seen a demonstration of it?

We have never seen phasers vaporize a damn thing either, so I guess we are even on that regard.

You really should learn the difference between vaporizine and disintegration.

PS. your shameless attempt to include an EU topic (the "durasteel rod" bit) for discussion while simultaneously barring me from doing so

YOU BROUGHT IT UP!

(in the other thread, which makes this hard to follow)

YOU INTENTIONALLY SPLIT THE THREADS UP!

is just more evidence of your weaselly nature. Either debate cleanly or admit that you're hopelessly overmatched.

... let me get this straight, you are the one playing underhanded, and then you blame someone else for it? He only responded to what you did. Jesus, it's like you are two different people between this round and the last.

What, has your account been "hacked" agin?

First off, the durasteel staff (ie, a sturdy pole that shouldn't be easy to bend) bit was independent from the main topic, and was merely shown to demonstrate how embarrassing it would be to your side if the EU was considered canon. At no point did I pursue it further in the thread. Your bringing it into the debate, when it was not a part of the thread (merely "there"), has made you the responsible party for violating the canon.

Bullshit. You presented it, its on your shoulders. Congratulations, you have just become the second most dishonest debator I have ever encountered.

As for being "hopelessly overmatched", I admit your victory in the catagories of ignorant statements and falsehoods. We will see, in the end, who is overmatched.

You lie in your evidence, depend on semantic arguing, use atrocious logic, show no grasp of science whatsoever, and accuse him of cheating when you are the one who did it. And you say he made the most "ignorant statements and falsehoods"?


PS. Nice of you to chop off how the fact that the Imperials use combined arms heavily slants things.

[Ender]

PPS: See you in a week kid.

[Slartibartfast]

Stormtrooper armor is hardly as strong as a packing crate, if a single shot from a blaster pierces it. On Feddie surrender: Like the Federation would surrender to scum wearing hopelessly thin, pitiful armor, with aim worse than a one eyed monkey.

Please consult with Einy on the subject of the aim of his one eyed monkey.

[Slartibartfast]

The ANH novel goes, "a dug-out pit... holding what could only marginally be refered to as a starship." So, Han was blowing out chunks of what amounts to DIRT. Packed dirt, but dirt nonetheless. Most likely held together by cement or a reasonable fascimile thereof.

Okay, c'mon, this one is pure unadulterated bullsh... wait, that's not what I was gonna say. It's pure unadulterated 100% COPY AND FUCKING PASTE! Damn I'm almost completely sure I've read this word by word in another "debate" or Mr. "Anderson"'s "site".

[DPDarkPrimus]

In the "phasers vs blasters" thread, ATJ's comment about durasteel isn't only obviously idiotic, but also fucking MORONIC, since his comment implys that capital ship plating is as thick as the table was.

[Slartibartfast]

So if I make a wire out of durasteel, it's must also be impossible to bend?