DWvsATJ commentary thread.
Moderator: Vympel
- Anarchist Bunny
- Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
- Posts: 5458
- Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
- Contact:
DWvsATJ commentary thread.
Just thought I'd make this so that the accually thread doesn't get cluttered with spam.
Uhhh, ATJ your spose to start it with an arguement. You know that right?
Uhhh, ATJ your spose to start it with an arguement. You know that right?
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
- Anarchist Bunny
- Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
- Posts: 5458
- Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
- Contact:
Making up your own rules for whats canon huh?ATJ wrote:e're dealing with the movies and Lucas-sanctioned material ONLY, so no EU! Also, nothing from the Trek novels, aside from (and COMPLETELY) limited to those by Jeri Taylor.
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
- Ghost Rider
- Spirit of Vengeance
- Posts: 27779
- Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
- Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
Pfft after not getting how certain board functions work...I think that one flew by him BOTH the times he's challenged Wong.
This is like a chinchilla vs Thor.
This is like a chinchilla vs Thor.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
- Anarchist Bunny
- Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
- Posts: 5458
- Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
- Contact:
Something I found interesting on SW.com.
Wasn't the BDZ demostrated in the comics? And the Infinities label proves that the books are offical, or they wouldn't have come up with the symbol to separtate the non contiuous books from teh offical ones.starwars.com wrote: Fans of the old monthly Marvel Star Wars comic will be heartened to know that LucasBooks does indeed consider them part of continuity. Decades of retrospect haven't been kind to all the elements of the comic series, but the characters and events still hold weight and are referenced in newer material whenever possible.
In order to allow unlimited freedom of storytelling, the Infinities label has been placed on the anthology series, Star Wars Tales. This means that not only can the stories occur anywhere in the Star Wars timeline, but stories can happen outside continuity.
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
- Ghost Rider
- Spirit of Vengeance
- Posts: 27779
- Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
- Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
I also guess his daddy is allowing him use of the computer since that was apparently his excuse last night.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
- Anarchist Bunny
- Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
- Posts: 5458
- Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
- Contact:
- Ghost Rider
- Spirit of Vengeance
- Posts: 27779
- Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
- Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
- Invader ZIm
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 210
- Joined: 2002-07-29 01:01am
- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
- Posts: 5079
- Joined: 2002-09-20 10:03pm
- Location: My personal sanctuary from the outside world
- Darth Garden Gnome
- Official SD.Net Lawn Ornament
- Posts: 6029
- Joined: 2002-07-08 02:35am
- Location: Some where near a mailbox
Sorry, I saw "Darth Wong vs Anti-Troll Jihad" and skimmed over the topic, being very confused. I supposed I shoulda picked up on it being AJT, ah well.anarchistbunny wrote:Accually it is, along with a few events in the Animated Series, and since this is suppose to be DWvsATJ make comments in the commentary thread.
Either way he needs to skip the theatrics and, oh, I dunno, make an argument! He's "accpted" Wong's challenge twice now and either time he has avoided actual confrontation.
Leader of the Secret Gnome Revolution
Oh look, Lucas has the EU fill in the blanks. In other words, he considers them valid.Starwars.com wrote:"So how did Anakin get that scar, George?" asks John Knoll
"I don't know. Ask Howard," says George, referring to President of Lucas
Licensing Howard Roffman. "That's one of those things that happens in the
novels between the movies. I just put it there. He has to explain how it got
there. I think Anakin got it slipping in the bathtub, but of course, he's
not going to tell anybody that."
Not that it matters, thought, since he didn't present an argument in any way shape or form.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
- Posts: 5079
- Joined: 2002-09-20 10:03pm
- Location: My personal sanctuary from the outside world
Hmm, doesn't look like we have much to do untill Andrew actually makes some points to backup his argument that Wong's site has major flaws in facts/reasoning, defend Scooter's site, or somesuch argument.
Oh well. Maybe I'll putter around in Photoshop or jot some stuff down untill then.
Oh well. Maybe I'll putter around in Photoshop or jot some stuff down untill then.
By His Word...
- Shadow WarChief
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: 2002-07-04 06:29am
- Location: San Francisco
- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
- Posts: 5079
- Joined: 2002-09-20 10:03pm
- Location: My personal sanctuary from the outside world
Hmm, for some inexplicable reason, he's started another thread to make an argument.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... highlight=
I guess his policy is 'One Thread, One Claim'.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... highlight=
I guess his policy is 'One Thread, One Claim'.
By His Word...
No, one narrow viewed intrepretation of that statement that disregards the rest of the sentance and ignores recent statements by Lucas arrives ahtthat conclusionAndrew Joshua Talon wrote:My flair for the dramatic is an unfortunate handicap in debates, but nevertheless one I shall ignore. My defining the canon is just to make sure everyone remembers it. THe EU was called a "parallel universe" by Lucas,
Do you have any proof as to the thickness of the rod?and given this quote from "Darksaber" regarding durasteel, that could be seen as a good thing:
"Daala turned and ripped one of the electric-blue glowtorches from the floor behind her. 'Enough!' she shouted. She raised the durasteel staff high and smashed it down upon the tabletop. The glowcrystal exploded into shards with crackling blue sparks, and transparent fragments flew in all directions. She hammered the rod down again and again, denting the table, bending the staff, and fragmenting the end."[*i] (Darksaber, p. 133)
Capable of being bent by a pissed off woman (even one with enhanced strength, which compared to the forces out in space combat, is barely anything)? Gee, I wish I had some boots to quake in.
No. What we see is utterly inconsistent with vaporization. They disappeared, but they were not vaporizedBut, that's not the topic of the reponse to the challenge issued by Wong. This is:
Phaser to Blasters
In ST:II, we see phasers vaporize at least two people.
The energy requirements are grossly different. Thanks for demonstrating an absolute ignorance of thermodynamicsIn TNG Season 3, Ep# 57: "The Vengeance Factor", we see Riker vaporize Yuta with a phaser. Granted, Wong argues over "vaporization", but for all intents and purposes, Yuta was reduced to virtually nothing.
Sucks balls.In TNG Season 3, Ep# 57: "The Vengeance Factor", we see another example of "vaporization", and though there is smoke left over, Wong fails to submit the idea that not ALL of the norandium was vaporized. Considering the size of the pile, and the angle of the phaser blasts, it is entirely possible the away team didn't vaporize it all, and some of it was left over, smoking. This does not indicate phasers are weak, as I might point out that:Prove your hypothesis.
We have never seen phasers vaporize anything either. Further, the exact power of phaser rifles has been stated to be 1 MJ in DS9, whereas the yield of a blaster rifle has been estimated to be 4-8 MJ.1: We have never seen an Imperial blaster vaporize a person entirely. Or, any large scale object at all, for that matter. Yes, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru were reduced to flaming corpses, but they were still, in effect, THERE. Phasers have shown themselves capable of leaving virtually nothing left.
Yes, melting/vaporizing large chunks of metal in the process. You do realize that does nto help your case, right?2: In the ANH novelization, in the first chapter, Red, green and blue bolts ricocheted off polished sections of wall and floor or ripped long gashes in metal surfaces.[*i]
This seems to indicate that blaster shots simply bounce off mirrored surfaces.
Failing to see how use of lasers (and note that while they have some laser properties, there are also parts utterly inconsistent with laser effects EG the trailing bolt)On one hand, this is not entirely surprising: The primary shipboard weapon in use in the Star Wars Universe is the laser: at it's most basic, energized light. Since the Empire doesn't use projectile weapons, and how blasters and lasers seem to work exactly the same ("little bolts of light," in the immortal words of John Crichton), it makes sense that blasters are just smaller versions of lasers.
Yes, because in active combat, being able to do a large number of noncombat things is important.3: Phasers can disperse their energies across a wide range for stunning and sweeping manuvers (ST: Voyager "Cathexis", ST DS9 "Way of the Warrior", "Homefront"). While they might not be able to kill large sweeps of targets, they are able to stun large numbers of them.
We see lasers do this as well.4: Phasers can adjust their aim ("The Vengeance Factor"[TNG]) by the fact that Riker fires the phaser off-center.
No. Yields of both can be quantified, and phasers come up lackingPhasers pack far more firepower than blasters do
In combat you don't want a weapon that can do 80 million things if your oponent is armed with one that can only do one thing extremely well, and that is kill., are more versatile,
Thanks for providing evidence for that claim thereand have greater range.
No matter the argument, the sheer fact that phasers have far greater power in ground combat applications shows that it doesn't matter if the Federation doesn't use very "sophisticated" ground tactics.
Even if we ignore all evidence to the contrary and go with what you said, the fact that they don't use any form of combetent ground tactics is still extremely important. Spandex clas infantry will be massacred by gunships, artillery, and heavy armor. Simple as that. Watch the history channel sometimes kid; you will learn alot about fighting wars.
Phasers don't damage crates, you think they will punch through armor?Lines of Stormtroopers could easily be mowed down by a few security personnel equipped with phasers.
ATOC, their aim and use in ground combat is extremely effective.And given their pathetic aim (Stormtroopers), I doubt they'd prove much of a threat to Federation troops except in numbers.
How's that?
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
- Grand Admiral Thrawn
- Ruthless Imperial Tyrant
- Posts: 5755
- Joined: 2002-07-03 06:11pm
- Location: Canada
Have you read ANYTHING about the EU's status?ATJ's argument wrote:My flair for the dramatic is an unfortunate handicap in debates, but nevertheless one I shall ignore. My defining the canon is just to make sure everyone remembers it. THe EU was called a "parallel universe" by Lucas, and given this quote from "Darksaber" regarding durasteel, that could be seen as a good thing:
Wow, you use a FUCKING STAFF to judge the strength of it. Great fucking job there."Daala turned and ripped one of the electric-blue glowtorches from the floor behind her. 'Enough!' she shouted. She raised the durasteel staff high and smashed it down upon the tabletop. The glowcrystal exploded into shards with crackling blue sparks, and transparent fragments flew in all directions. She hammered the rod down again and again, denting the table, bending the staff, and fragmenting the end." (Darksaber, p. 133)
Capable of being bent by a pissed off woman (even one with enhanced strength, which compared to the forces out in space combat, is barely anything)? Gee, I wish I had some boots to quake in.
Did you see people reacting to the invisible rapidly expanding large cloud of high temperature water vapour?But, that's not the topic of the reponse to the challenge issued by Wong. This is:
Phaser to Blasters
In ST:II, we see phasers vaporize at least two people.
Don't you see anything wrong with the fact that the same setting "vaporizes" large human and Klingon males, but has the exact same effect on a far less massive female?In TNG Season 3, Ep# 57: "The Vengeance Factor", we see Riker vaporize Yuta with a phaser.
Which is NOT what vaporizing is! Matter does not just disappear!Granted, Wong argues over "vaporization", but for all intents and purposes, Yuta was reduced to virtually nothing.
Wrong, Mike's complaint is that it isn't vaporizing, it's burning! Someone pours sand on it. It was a fire.In TNG Season 3, Ep# 57: "The Vengeance Factor", we see another example of "vaporization", and though there is smoke left over, Wong fails to submit the idea that not ALL of the norandium was vaporized. Considering the size of the pile, and the angle of the phaser blasts, it is entirely possible the away team didn't vaporize it all, and some of it was left over, smoking. This does not indicate phasers are weak, as I might point out that:
Which, once again, is proof they do not vaporize and are NOT DET weapons. Blasters are.1: We have never seen an Imperial blaster vaporize a person entirely. Or, any large scale object at all, for that matter. Yes, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru were reduced to flaming corpses, but they were still, in effect, THERE. Phasers have shown themselves capable of leaving virtually nothing left.
2: In the ANH novelization, in the first chapter, Red, green and blue bolts ricocheted off polished sections of wall and floor or ripped long gashes in metal surfaces.[*i]
This seems to indicate that blaster shots simply bounce off mirrored surfaces.
It also indicates blasters make long gashes in metal!
On one hand, this is not entirely surprising: The primary shipboard weapon in use in the Star Wars Universe is the laser: at it's most basic, energized light. Since the Empire doesn't use projectile weapons, and how blasters and lasers seem to work exactly the same ("little bolts of light," in the immortal words of John Crichton), it makes sense that blasters are just smaller versions of lasers.
What the fuck are you talking about? Don't tell me you're saying Star Wars uses actual lasers! That's troll level bullshit!
3: Phasers can disperse their energies across a wide range for stunning and sweeping manuvers (ST: Voyager "Cathexis", ST DS9 "Way of the Warrior", "Homefront"). While they might not be able to kill large sweeps of targets, they are able to stun large numbers of them.
Prove this can have any effect on armoured targets, or that is can be used in any long range combat instead of its demonstrated close quarters.
4: Phasers can adjust their aim ("The Vengeance Factor"[TNG]) by the fact that Riker fires the phaser off-center.
Yes.
Phasers pack far more firepower than blasters do,
Wrong,
are more versatile,
Blasters can kill people, stun them, and knock out armored (Stormtroopers and Droids) targets. Anything else is not in any real use on a battlefield.
and have greater range.
You haven't even tried to prove this. No phaser has demonstrated the kilometer ranges in ESB and AOTC.
No matter the argument, the sheer fact that phasers have far greater power in ground combat applications shows that it doesn't matter if the Federation doesn't use very "sophisticated" ground tactics.
The Federation lacks things like artillery, any vehicles other then a fucking dune buggy, or even A FUCKING MACHINE GUN!
Lines of Stormtroopers could easily be mowed down by a few security personnel equipped with phasers.
Bullshit. The completely re-armed and reequiped forces in "Siege" couldn't fucking handle a INFANTRY CHARGE!
And given their pathetic aim (Stormtroopers), I doubt they'd prove much of a threat to Federation troops except in numbers.
Stormtroopers will be the LEAST of the Federations worries. Something else will masscre them: Combined Arms.
"You know, I was God once."
"Yes, I saw. You were doing well, until everyone died."
Bender and God, Futurama
"Yes, I saw. You were doing well, until everyone died."
Bender and God, Futurama
IIRC, lots of cool shiznitz were demonstrated in the comics- Star 'Battleships', 'Battlecruisers', etc.anarchistbunny wrote:Something I found interesting on SW.com.
Wasn't the BDZ demostrated in the comics? And the Infinities label proves that the books are offical, or they wouldn't have come up with the symbol to separtate the non contiuous books from teh offical ones.starwars.com wrote: Fans of the old monthly Marvel Star Wars comic will be heartened to know that LucasBooks does indeed consider them part of continuity. Decades of retrospect haven't been kind to all the elements of the comic series, but the characters and events still hold weight and are referenced in newer material whenever possible.
In order to allow unlimited freedom of storytelling, the Infinities label has been placed on the anthology series, Star Wars Tales. This means that not only can the stories occur anywhere in the Star Wars timeline, but stories can happen outside continuity.
- Master of Ossus
- Darkest Knight
- Posts: 18213
- Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
- Location: California
Mike, AJT's post is essentially a copy-paste job from DarkStar's. This shows his spectacular intellectual dishonesty.
I just have a couple things to add (which I ALREADY POINTED OUT TO DARKSTAR):
1. In TPM, a blaster shot was seen prominently deflecting off the FUCKING GROUND when the battle droids went up against the Gungan Army. The reflective properties of the target have nothing to do with the tendency to create richochets, since the ground is not remotely reflective. ATJ is simply lying by following DarkStar's words.
2. His dismissal of tactics is laughable. SF personnel no longer even consider tactics to be worth learning. SF personnel in ST:Nemesis REPEATEDLY MISSED man-sized targets who were standing still at ranges of well under ten meters. That is PATHETIC accuracy, given that they were carrying assault rifle-analogues at the time.
3. I like how he never even attempts to produce evidence that phasers have greater range than blasters, and how he ignores canonical complaints regarding the reliability of phasers, which is far more important than their ability to provide small amounts of heat for a limited amount of time.
I just have a couple things to add (which I ALREADY POINTED OUT TO DARKSTAR):
1. In TPM, a blaster shot was seen prominently deflecting off the FUCKING GROUND when the battle droids went up against the Gungan Army. The reflective properties of the target have nothing to do with the tendency to create richochets, since the ground is not remotely reflective. ATJ is simply lying by following DarkStar's words.
2. His dismissal of tactics is laughable. SF personnel no longer even consider tactics to be worth learning. SF personnel in ST:Nemesis REPEATEDLY MISSED man-sized targets who were standing still at ranges of well under ten meters. That is PATHETIC accuracy, given that they were carrying assault rifle-analogues at the time.
3. I like how he never even attempts to produce evidence that phasers have greater range than blasters, and how he ignores canonical complaints regarding the reliability of phasers, which is far more important than their ability to provide small amounts of heat for a limited amount of time.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
- Jason von Evil
- Sol Badguy
- Posts: 8103
- Joined: 2002-11-29 02:13am
- Location: Writer of the fictions
- Contact:
Oi, I always wondered when someone would try and claim that the Stormies suck at aiming. I finally get to use my 137kb of SW knowledge!
Ever notice that the only people the Stormies have consistently missed were THE MAIN FRIGGIN CHARACTERS? If they hit them, there wouldn't be any damn SW movies, would there?
Final thought: Ban AJT!
Ever notice that the only people the Stormies have consistently missed were THE MAIN FRIGGIN CHARACTERS? If they hit them, there wouldn't be any damn SW movies, would there?
Final thought: Ban AJT!
"It was the hooker rationing that finally drove people over the edge." - Mike on coup in Thailand.
- CmdrWilkens
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 9093
- Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
- Location: Land of the Crabcake
- Contact:
I just love when someone trys to make a point by boiling a discussion down to one tiny point which, even if he is correct, has absolutely no bearing on the larger debate. I wonder if this kid even realizes how land warfare works when you place an infantry only force completely devoid of tactical skill against one which employs Manuever Warfare to its best advantage.
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
- Connor MacLeod
- Sith Apprentice
- Posts: 14065
- Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
- Contact:
You know, if we're going to have all these dissatisfied fans like AJT and Triumviron picking fights with the likes of Mike and Brian, maybe we should appoint some "dueling seconds" so to get all the preliminary arguments out of the way.
Traditionally, after the "duelists" had agreed to fight each other, the seconds from each side got together to work out the rules: weapons to be used, limits on clothing (so both sides show up equally attired), time and place, victory conditions, etc. With such a system, we might actually be able to have a real debate over the topic instead of reading several pages of squabbling over terms.
Traditionally, after the "duelists" had agreed to fight each other, the seconds from each side got together to work out the rules: weapons to be used, limits on clothing (so both sides show up equally attired), time and place, victory conditions, etc. With such a system, we might actually be able to have a real debate over the topic instead of reading several pages of squabbling over terms.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"