A ST-v-SW Debate with my Father

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TrekWarsie
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A ST-v-SW Debate with my Father

Post by TrekWarsie »

When I read Insider 68, I was convinced that Star Wars was better than Star Trek in terms of shields, weaponry and FTL speeds. My father, however, did not agree and we have been debating the superiority of each universe ever since. He said that there has never been any demonstration of 200 GT turbolasers. Not only that, he said that nothing shown in any of the movies demonstrates turbolasers as being anything anywhere close to 200 gigatons. I of course pointed out the E2 ICS, but he then calmly said that the ICS is inferior to the movies, and thus can be overruled by the movies themselves and he said that the Insider 68 only referred to the OT and the E1 ICS's. He then said that since we never saw the turbolasers of the Acclamators fire, that there is no way to determine their yield. And he has laughed at the Slave I 600 GJ blaster cannon yield. He said that he would only concede if I could show him an example of 200 GT turbolasers.

The problem is that he is a high school psysics teacher and he says that the asteroid popping scene in TESB is not even close to the 600 megaton estimate. He's also seen the movie so many times that he's lost count. I have also read many, though not all, of the Star Wars EU books, even the NJO books, and I can't find a single example of 200 gigaton turbolasers. Could you guys help me?
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Post by Soontir C'boath »

Minor nitpick: The firepower in the asteroid scene was rated at 60 megatons.

Show him the canon policy and that the ICSEp2 is allowed. But if he's a on-screen only canon type of person..then I don't know what to do heh.~Jason
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Post by Audrie_Dawn »

That, and run through the full asteroid calculations and ask him to find actual errors in them. Even a physics teacher's "eyeball" estimate could be very off, especially given that firepower of that magnitude simply doesn't exist in the real world.
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Post by Alyeska »

Point out that the lack of fire from Acclamators is meaningless. Canon opperate much to do on a lack of contraditiction. As long as the movies do not flat contradict what is stated in the ICS books, then the ICS books stand. Because nothing directly contradicts the 200 GT claim, that claim stands as canon.
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Re: A ST-v-SW Debate with my Father

Post by Darth Wong »

TrekWarsie wrote:When I read Insider 68, I was convinced that Star Wars was better than Star Trek in terms of shields, weaponry and FTL speeds. My father, however, did not agree and we have been debating the superiority of each universe ever since. He said that there has never been any demonstration of 200 GT turbolasers.
This is like saying that there's never been any demonstration of medium-sized nukes, so they must not exist even though we've seen small ones and big ones. It's quite frankly moronic. There has been a demonstration of gigaton-level explosions from seismic charges small enough to put on a handcart, and there has been a demonstration of a 50 trillion gigaton blast (absolute minimum permissible by physics; onscreen violence actually indicates more than 20 quintillion gigatons) from a Death Star superlaser. Tell him to do the math.
Not only that, he said that nothing shown in any of the movies demonstrates turbolasers as being anything anywhere close to 200 gigatons.
He's either blind, stupid, or both.
I of course pointed out the E2 ICS, but he then calmly said that the ICS is inferior to the movies, and thus can be overruled by the movies themselves and he said that the Insider 68 only referred to the OT and the E1 ICS's. He then said that since we never saw the turbolasers of the Acclamators fire, that there is no way to determine their yield. And he has laughed at the Slave I 600 GJ blaster cannon yield. He said that he would only concede if I could show him an example of 200 GT turbolasers.
Show him an example of a giant 20 quintillion GT turbolaser, and ask him to try scaling it down to see what he gets. 200 GT is actually very low.
The problem is that he is a high school psysics teacher and he says that the asteroid popping scene in TESB is not even close to the 600 megaton estimate.
That's because it's not a 600 megaton estimate. It's about a third of a megaton. The bigger figure comes from AOTC, where the destructive blast radius is several kilometres.
He's also seen the movie so many times that he's lost count. I have also read many, though not all, of the Star Wars EU books, even the NJO books, and I can't find a single example of 200 gigaton turbolasers. Could you guys help me?
As always, there are three answers to every Trekkie who adopts your father's mindless line of attack:

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Post by CmdrWilkens »

On the TESB asteroid incident please direct him to the website in my sig.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Didn't some of the BY TL commentary calcs came otu to multi-megaton yields?

I suspect that in TESB its likely the Avenger was firing light defense guns (laser cannons) rather than the medium or heavy TLs, since they are better designed for taking out smaller targets.
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Post by Ender »

Scale down Death Star shields by volume (provides lowest value) with an assumption of linear decrease to ISd volume (Treat it as a pyramid).

Now divide that value by 30 misn, by 60 secs, and by 16 guns. this will give you the low end value for a Mon Cal TL as those ISDs took 30 mins of pounding and you are going with a 1shot/sec rate for a full broadside.

You get something like 440 GT.

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Post by Darth Servo »

The fact that he describes the scene in TESB as "asteroid popping" tells us somebody's been reading RSA's website.
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Post by Ted C »

Darth Servo wrote:The fact that he describes the scene in TESB as "asteroid popping" tells us somebody's been reading RSA's website.
...where the asteroids are composed of high explosives just waiting for a low-powered energy beam to set them off.
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Post by TrekWarsie »

I do think that he has read the site before. He has made reference to DarkStar's work in our debates.
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Post by Audrie_Dawn »

An honest-to-goodness physics teacher read through DarkStar's site and actually bought it? :shock: :shock: :shock:

I mean, DarkStar seems to have had a recent change of heart and is debating quite logically and nicely about the size of the Death Star...but his website is still the evil old chewtoy-moron version.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

TrekWarsie wrote:I do think that he has read the site before. He has made reference to DarkStar's work in our debates.
And he didn't bust out laughing?

Seriously the site is a joke filled with his own personal diatribe. If he's taking material from there...go ahead and show him Ossus' dissection of the place.

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Post by Darth Wong »

TrekWarsie wrote:I do think that he has read the site before. He has made reference to DarkStar's work in our debates.
Excellent. Please ask him to come here and debate me personally. I'm not joking; I need a more worthwhile target than a fucking helpdesk operator with delusions of grandeur, or legions of high school kids who pretend to know what they're talking about.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Audrie_Dawn wrote:An honest-to-goodness physics teacher read through DarkStar's site and actually bought it? :shock: :shock: :shock:

I mean, DarkStar seems to have had a recent change of heart and is debating quite logically and nicely about the size of the Death Star...but his website is still the evil old chewtoy-moron version.
Darkstar only debates logically when he feels he can afford to do so. If it's a subject which he can't afford to lose because it brings his entire position crashing down (eg- Lucasfilm's canon policy or the firepower of the Death Star), he goes into broken-record mode every time.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Ted C wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:The fact that he describes the scene in TESB as "asteroid popping" tells us somebody's been reading RSA's website.
...where the asteroids are composed of high explosives just waiting for a low-powered energy beam to set them off.
He's not the first rabid Trekkie moron to suggest that theory. I had a debate with some moron on SB long ago named Soborous or osmething like that who thought the asteorids were hollow and filled with some sort of explosive gas.

Ironically, I believe Soborous is also an alter ego of Lord Edam.
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Post by Solauren »

Darth Wong wrote:
TrekWarsie wrote:I do think that he has read the site before. He has made reference to DarkStar's work in our debates.
Excellent. Please ask him to come here and debate me personally. I'm not joking; I need a more worthwhile target than a fucking helpdesk operator with delusions of grandeur, or legions of high school kids who pretend to know what they're talking about.
Request you use my Star Wars/LucasArts, Star Trek/Paramount canon policy post to A.J.T in the opening volley, Sir
:twisted:

A Physics teacher could prove to be a worthy adversary, if he just isn't qouting Dark star and other versus websites.
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Post by Audrie_Dawn »

Darth Wong wrote:
Audrie_Dawn wrote:An honest-to-goodness physics teacher read through DarkStar's site and actually bought it? :shock: :shock: :shock:

I mean, DarkStar seems to have had a recent change of heart and is debating quite logically and nicely about the size of the Death Star...but his website is still the evil old chewtoy-moron version.
Darkstar only debates logically when he feels he can afford to do so. If it's a subject which he can't afford to lose because it brings his entire position crashing down (eg- Lucasfilm's canon policy or the firepower of the Death Star), he goes into broken-record mode every time.
One at a time, perhaps.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Does anyone else smell the fragrant essence of BULLSHIT this whole scenario exudes? Father and son discuss Trek vs. Wars, with "Pop" citing DARKSTAR'S website....
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Post by Howedar »

Seems strange, but I'm not getting the normal bad vibes.
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Question...

Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

While we are doing this, is he doing ANYTHING other than trying to disprove quotes, calcs and observations of SW firepower? For example, Is he bringing up the Outrageous Okona for Trek?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Lord Poe wrote:Does anyone else smell the fragrant essence of BULLSHIT this whole scenario exudes? Father and son discuss Trek vs. Wars, with "Pop" citing DARKSTAR'S website....
I know I'd certainly never have that conversation with my own father, who regards all sci-fi as a complete waste of time (doesn't fit with the stereotype of a guy with a doctorate in nuclear physics, I know), but then again, there are lots of weird things in this world, and this doesn't rank that high on the weirdness scale.

I would normally say that I find it shocking that a high school science teacher could buy into Darkstar's website, but I've heard some serious bullshit from high school science teachers before. The one idiot who said that air cooling has no effect without sweat or some other liquid/vapour phase-change mechanism, for example. Not to mention Dr. Saxton's little anecdote about a physics teacher who believed that atoms might be tiny solar systems ...
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Darth Wong wrote:I would normally say that I find it shocking that a high school science teacher could buy into Darkstar's website, but I've heard some serious bullshit from high school science teachers before. The one idiot who said that air cooling has no effect without sweat or some other liquid/vapour phase-change mechanism, for example.
:shock:

When was this?
Not to mention Dr. Saxton's little anecdote about a physics teacher who believed that atoms might be tiny solar systems ...
[slaps forehead with palm]

That's pretty darn strange.

BTW, isn't our good friend, Graham Kennedy, a HS teacher?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I would normally say that I find it shocking that a high school science teacher could buy into Darkstar's website, but I've heard some serious bullshit from high school science teachers before. The one idiot who said that air cooling has no effect without sweat or some other liquid/vapour phase-change mechanism, for example.
:shock:

When was this?
My high-school science teacher said that. He insisted that airflow has no cooling effect on the human body unless you sweat, and the evapouration takes away heat energy. The fact that the air must be at precisely the same temperature as your body for this to hold true was something he didn't seem to grasp, as he had concocted an experiment in which we blew air on wet and dry thermometers in order to "prove" his theorem (of course, the thermometer was at room temperature). He was an imbecile, and probably one of the reasons I'm not usually that impressed when I hear that somebody teaches science.
Not to mention Dr. Saxton's little anecdote about a physics teacher who believed that atoms might be tiny solar systems ...
[slaps forehead with palm]

That's pretty darn strange.
Takes all kinds.
BTW, isn't our good friend, Graham Kennedy, a HS teacher?
Yes. And people wonder why high-school science teachers aren't allowed to design anything.
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Post by Rightous Fist Of Heaven »

Being a teacher doesnt make a person smart. I had a debate with my geography teacher over one test in the latest exam. There was a city that was bound to be hit by a tsunami, there were two roads leading out of it, one along the shoreline pretty close to the water and one that first lead upwards to the hill and then started to go along the shoreline, and he claimed that only the higher road would be a viable option. I said to him that the closer to the shore road also is a viable solution even if there is as few as 4 to 5 minutes of warning time because at that time a car could get at a steady speed of 80kph some 13 kilometers away from the town. Now if there was much less time left, there wouldnt be any point in using even the other road for there simply wouldnt be enough time. Apparently this went over his head.

Anyways the point is that there are smart teachers and dumb teachers. Too often you meet dumb teachers who shouldnt be teaching even how to paint the wall of a barn much less something as complicated as physics.
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