Why not just collapse the wormhole?

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Why not just collapse the wormhole?

Post by SCVN 2812 »

This is something that just seemed to have been neglected when I was reading Wong's interpretation of what a Federation assessment of the situation would be. Collapsing the Alpha-Gamma wormhole has been a last resort option discussed a few times during DS9. As few as 3 photon torpedos configured properly is enough to do it.

Or, did I just miss something? Is there some difference in the two wormholes that makes the Federation's various methods of collapsing pesky wormholes unworkable or impractical with the SW/ST wormhole used to create this scenario?
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Post by Howedar »

Once the Empire knows the location of the wormhole, it will be quite inaccesable to any and all Federation forces.
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Post by Bastard »

Howedar wrote:Once the Empire knows the location of the wormhole, it will be quite inaccesable to any and all Federation forces.
And you will of course provide examples of the countermeasures that the Empire has prepared for phase-cloaking?

What? They don't have any?

Too bad.
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Post by Howedar »

And you will of course provide evidence that phase cloaking is not lost tech (contradicting statements in TNG that suggest such technology was abondoned), and what exactly a phase cloaked ship will do there (sure as hell it can't fire weapons)?

What? You can't?

Too bad.
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Post by Howedar »

Oh, and nerve gas would kill the crew of a phase cloaked ship quickly and easily, with no trouble, after the phase cloaked ship was detected by the CGT sensors on Imperial warships that are known to detect cloaked ships.
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Re: Why not just collapse the wormhole?

Post by Crayz9000 »

SCVN 2812 wrote:This is something that just seemed to have been neglected when I was reading Wong's interpretation of what a Federation assessment of the situation would be. Collapsing the Alpha-Gamma wormhole has been a last resort option discussed a few times during DS9. As few as 3 photon torpedos configured properly is enough to do it.
Haven't I seen this topic... nay, this very same question, on Spacebattles already?
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Post by SCVN 2812 »

Don't even try it, I am not now nor have I ever been a member of space battles.
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Post by Darth Yoshi »

Doesn't that assume that the Federation can even get to the wormhole? I mean, seriously, warp is pretty slow compared to hyperdrive, and from TPM we can see that hyperdrive enables you to get from the Galactic Core to the Outer Rim in less than 12 hours. The probability that the wormhole opens up in the AQ is small. I mean 25%, if quadrant still means 1/4. Even it the wormhole does open up in the AQ, it takes days for Feddie ships to cross their _own territory_.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Why is it usually assumed the Imps find the wormhole first - SD.net states any science usefull sensors are stripped from the ships.

The feds do explore in fact they seek out wormhole and really like them - they even try to form an alliance with a system that they think has one.

Since SW ships seem to sit in orbit unless chasing someone I think they would be lucky to find one and since they would probably have to actually open it to realise it was there I dont think they are likely to find one if it was in the same system as them.

On the Phase cloak issue - you dont think those boys in section 31 kept a copy, hell they probably started the research in the first place.

If the feds found it first they would go undercover find out the Imps were a threat at least on a par with the dominion and imediatley come up with a plan to total it and call it quits.
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Post by Robert Treder »

Well, when you get down to it, it really makes little fucking difference who finds the wormhole...if the Imps find it, they go in and conquer...if the Feds find it and it's close enough to any Imp settlement that they can make contact, the Imps become aware of it and go in and conquer...if the Feds find it and it's so far away from any Imp settlement that they decide it's useless, they go away and the whole deal never takes place...so, if out of pride, you want the Feds to find it (or the Borg or any other Milky Way civ), go ahead and imagine that it's like that.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Pride? Its simply deduction that the Feds would find it if it was in their neck of the woods also the empire doesnt have a presence on every world in the SW universe and even if the Imps get tipped off the Feds would be ready to close it before they came through it.

They got burnt by a wormhole before, you think they are going to take that kind of chance again?
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Post by Robert Treder »

Yeah, ok, do you want them to fight or not?

Sounds to me like you're just trying to figure out ways for them to never meet in the first place. If so...concession accepted.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Here we go agressive folk on the attack.

Do I want them to fight? - ermm not really if fighting makes a good story them I will read it but I have no vested interest one way or another.

The thread is called Why not just collapse the wormhole? and im answering they would if they could.

As for your asserition that it doesnt matter who finds it, thats so short sighted (To be polite) its funny.

If the Imps find it they can fortify it and if the feds find it they can put a shuttle with a proto matter bomb on the other side waiting to go.

I also note that you have yet to answer the purpose of this thread and have simply proclaimed my answer to be unworthy.
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Post by Robert Treder »

Well, seeing as how your answer is unworthy, I don't see what's wrong in proclaiming that.

And as far as this thread is concerned, I'm not too interested in its intent, seeing as it's already been pointed out that they couldn't get to the wormhole if the Imps found it first.

And, if the Feds find it first and close it, so what? Does that make them able to defeat the Empire? No.
The entire idea behind Star Wars vs. Star Trek is that they are able to duke it out...if you remove that ability, good for you, you've effectively said you don't want to talk about Star Wars vs. Star Trek. So don't.
I think the point of the wormhole in the first place was sort of as a deus ex machina, just to get the ball rolling. If you have a better way for them to meet, I'd be glad to hear it.

But until then, it's kind of pointless to say that none of this would have happened if it had never happened.
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Post by TheDarkling »

If the question is pointless why post on the thread?

Next and I gotta say I love this

Robert Treder says:
seeing as it's already been pointed out that they couldn't get to the wormhole if the Imps found it first.

Why wouldnt that means it matters who finds it first?

lets ask an expert

Robert Treder says:
Well, when you get down to it, it really makes little fucking difference who finds the wormhole

hmm.. you say two conflicting things in quick succession

Therefore I think you should try and keep your own posts in check before proclaiming others unworthy - thats a mighty big plank you have in that there eye.

Also even if they werent going to close the worm hole who finds it first is still of great importance since it give either side a tactical edge.
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Post by Robert Treder »

No. Because it still doesn't matter who finds it, even if there are two outcomes...one outcome is that the Empire conquers the Milky Way, the other outcome is that neither side meets...one outcome has already been proven, the other (the one you're proposing) defeats the purpose of the argument.

And no, the Feds do not gain a tactical advantage if they find the wormhole first. Why? Because they can't fucking exploit it! They can't conquer the Empire just because they find the wormhole first. Their best option is to close it, which is maybe a strategic advantage, but not a tactical one.

And anywho, since when does the Federation dispatch proton-bomb laden shuttles to new wormholes it discovers?
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Post by TheDarkling »

They would have in place a fall back plan to blow up the wormhole, they always did on deep space nine and since that caused the last major war it would be even more likely that they would be prepared.

Also we dont know where the wormhole ends up so you cant say it gives them no advantage.

It could open up above the Hutt homeworld and the Feds could simply trade Tech for Intel or even tech in return.
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Post by Robert Treder »

TheDarkling wrote:It could open up above the Hutt homeworld and the Feds could simply trade Tech for Intel or even tech in return.
And the Hutts would be sooo interested in Federation technology. And they would be sooo honest in giving these primitive yahoos accurate intel.

For an appropriate analogy, imagine a group of pajama-wearing idealists showing up at Micro$oft headquarters and requesting to trade typewriters for information on Washington, D.C.
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that Mr. Gates would have them kindly escorted off the premises.

I'm also guessing that Hutts aren't as into kindly escorting intruders as Mr. Gates is.
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Post by TheDarkling »

The feds could give them holodecks, transporters, replicators - all nice tech.
Compare that to any ship they may have - once in hand the feds take the ship home and spend the next 100 years researching it by which time the new empire is rising up.

Would the Hutts be honest? well they have no love for the empire which would eventually destroy them if it got the chance.
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Post by Robert Treder »

TheDarkling wrote:The feds could give them holodecks, transporters, replicators - all nice tech.
Compare that to any ship they may have - once in hand the feds take the ship home and spend the next 100 years researching it by which time the new empire is rising up.
Even if they were able to get a ship out of it, that's still putting quite a bit of faith in their ability to 'reverse-engineer' the ship in question. What if, after a hundred years, they figure out how hyperdrive works, but still don't have the resources to manufacture hyperdrives? Or fuel?
Would the Hutts be honest? well they have no love for the empire which would eventually destroy them if it got the chance.
Yeah, but the Hutts have their own ways of dealing with the Empire. Surely they're not going to put too much trust in a group of guys that promises that within a hundred years, they'll have a better chance of facing the Empire.
And why would they be interested in replacing one oppressive human society with another?

And why would they believe that the Feds are benevolent idealists from another galaxy that accidentally found this wormhole through space and time and want to use this portal to secretly build up power over hundreds of years and then come back and fight the evil empire and be the Hutts friends?
If I were the Hutts, I wouldn't buy it for a second. I would probably capture the Enterprise or Voyager or Defiant or whatever other Starfleet hero happened to be making this journey, put all the crew in prison, impound and destroy the ship, impound and destroy the droid Data (if he came along), then put out a report that we've apprehended the crew of an unauthorized warship over the skies of Nal Hutta, and see if any human groups want to barter for the prisoners. When we find out that nobody gives a shit about them (except, of course, for some group of human rights loonies...but I'm a Hutt, I don't care about them), we fine them all for tresspassing. Then when they can't pay, we sell them as slaves or something fun like that.

Regardless, there's no reason to believe that the Hutts would be any kinder than the Empire.
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Post by IDMR »

TheDarkling wrote:Why is it usually assumed the Imps find the wormhole first - SD.net states any science usefull sensors are stripped from the ships.

The feds do explore in fact they seek out wormhole and really like them - they even try to form an alliance with a system that they think has one.
Just to put things into perspective, the overwhelmingly larger number of Imperial ships, the territory they control and superior speed must need imply that they are far more likely to stumble upon wormwholes than the entire star fleet are even were they actively searching for them. Imperial warships had been put from a million to some fifty million, and this is discounting any civilian crafts. The Federation, on the other hand, have at the most fifty thousand ships (probably closer to ten, but let us be generous here). The Federation controls a portion of a galaxy's quadrant, whereas the Empire control at least 60%. Even class III hyperdrive outpaces maximum warp by a factor of a hundred.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Robert Treder: The Hutts would like the tech and wouldnt mind trading any old ship for it.

Im not saying they would side with the Feds im just saying no loyalty to the empire would stop them taking the deal and why risk it the feds say "we are advanced look" and beam about replicate a few things and show em a holo deck.

As for can they reverse engine the tech - well that depends on how different it is and we get theorys like subspace and hyperspace are the same.

Fuel again huge range - I have seen a rather odd theory that claims if you take the ANH novel as cannon (as you should) then the Death star was fusion based.

In short those issues would take us months to resolve and even then we may not agree.

The Hutts go - " you craft seems a bit weak" and the feds respond " oh thats just a scout ship/ pleasure cruiser".

IDMR: The Feds explore the Imps dont.
The feds have science equipment on their ships, the Imps dont (at least not on the Imp navy).

The very fact that Imps cover huge distances is a disadvantage since they are going to fast to notice anything they simply go from A to B and thats it.

I was also assuming the wormhole opens in Fed space but that may not be the case but flip that around and why does the wormhole open in Imp space?

As for you ship numbers im not so sure I see figures flying about all over the place ranging from the Han solo Sub1000 to the High double figure millions.

However if the high millions exist it seems to clash with a number of things like why can the Rebellion have about 30 ships and win a war, why bother with the death star since the Fear Doctrine was designed so every system doesnt need ships in it but Millions puts a few ships in most enhabitated worlds - Yes I know planetary shields - cant last forever and then the empire hammers you.

Im going to sleep ill be back later to respond to you responses - if you post any.
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Post by IDMR »

TheDarkling wrote:IDMR: The Feds explore the Imps dont.
The feds have science equipment on their ships, the Imps dont (at least not on the Imp navy).
They also have a lot less territory to cover. And you did not address the overwhelming numerical disparity.
TheDarkling wrote:The very fact that Imps cover huge distances is a disadvantage since they are going to fast to notice anything they simply go from A to B and thats it.

I was also assuming the wormhole opens in Fed space but that may not be the case but flip that around and why does the wormhole open in Imp space?
No, it is not given that the wormhole opens in UFP space at all. And if we were speaking of the Empire at its height, most of the galaxy is Imperial space. One way or another Imperial space is far larger so if it is a matter of chance the odds would favour the Imperials.
TheDarkling wrote:As for you ship numbers im not so sure I see figures flying about all over the place ranging from the Han solo Sub1000 to the High double figure millions.
Quote Solo's figure again, and I shall lock you in a room with a rabid gorilla. No, this is not a proper answer, but it's the only one you'll get if you insist on that number.
TheDarkling wrote:However if the high millions exist it seems to clash with a number of things like why can the Rebellion have about 30 ships and win a war, why bother with the death star since the Fear Doctrine was designed so every system doesnt need ships in it but Millions puts a few ships in most enhabitated worlds - Yes I know planetary shields - cant last forever and then the empire hammers you.

Im going to sleep ill be back later to respond to you responses - if you post any.
It does not. The rebellion have rather more than thirty ships. Incidentally, the very existence of the Death Star basically throws your whole arguement to the dogs. The DS I alone equals millions of ISDs...
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Post by DarkStar »

IDMR wrote: The Federation controls a portion of a galaxy's quadrant, whereas the Empire control at least 60%. Even class III hyperdrive outpaces maximum warp by a factor of a hundred.
ANH novel says the million systems of the Empire is a tiny fraction of a section of a modest-sized galaxy.
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Post by Mr Bean »

ANH novel says the million systems of the Empire is a tiny fraction of a section of a modest-sized galaxy.
Both a point and not one at the same time I could say

1.Irrlevant-Thats 999,000 more systems then the Federation hass
Or
2. Or Movies outway books, When Book and Movie Aurgue then Movie wins(IE the other 5 Movies say diffrent)

Drop that one Dark and lets keep going here, this is reasonable debate so far

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