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Darth Yoshi
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Postby Darth Yoshi » 2002-07-10 11:59pm

With the exception of Quark, those are all Starfleet officers, or their relatives. considering how prominent Starfleet is in the Federation, I'm not surprised they don't have to work.
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Postby TheDarkling » 2002-07-11 12:00am

VF5SS: Im not sure on your ratio but those people could go for less people heavy jobs - scientists etc.

People who dont want to see people at all... well they could be a problem but they are few and far between.

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Postby John Clark » 2002-07-11 12:01am

For every one man who wants to go out and be with people, there will be a thousand more who just want to stay as far away from everyone as they possibly can. Speaking from experience.


And I suppose you're speaking from the experience of a thousand people? :roll:
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Postby Zoink » 2002-07-11 12:01am

TheDarkling wrote:Put some evidence on the table please because I cant see anything supporting your assumptions.



Star Trek requires that:

- the number of people who's life-long-dream is to be a waitor is magically equal or greater than the number required for that society to function

- the number of people who's life-long-dream is to be a sewage disposal unit repairman is magically equal or greater than the number required for that society to function

- the number of people who's life-long-dream is to be a desk clerk at a vacation resort is magically equal or greater than the number required for that society to function

- etc, etc.

Its an ideal situation which can't exist. With the millions of such jobs, most would not fill the requirement.

There would be no way to attract people to those positions (today we increase the salary of such in-demand jobs to attract workers). And there is no way to attract people into menial jobs that people don't like (today, there's fewer jobs then workers, jobs are required for money, so people MUST fill these jobs to survive).


and some people in our own still work when they dont need to so why is it so hard to expand that?

Just give me some evidence that htis goes on apart from "it has to".


No Darkling, give ME evidence. I'm saying Star Trek is lacking certain social mechanisms that are required for any society to function. I can't give evidence for something that doesn't exist. If you think they do exist, then you can fill me in:

How does "some" people still working when the don't have to somehow mean that everyone will do so, AND do so in such a way that every job that needs filling will be filled. What is the mechanism in Star Trek that ensures this? So please explain to me how: if Earth needs 1 million vacation desk clerks that there will always be 1 million people waiting to fill that job.

If there is no such mechanism, then Star Trek society simply works by magic. This is not surprising, since you are describing an ideal, utopean world (which can't exist).

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Postby TheDarkling » 2002-07-11 12:05am

Darth Yoshi: Picard said they dont use money - you think they get free rides because they are related to Starfleet officers?, then why do entire families join starfleet instead of leeching off their sons etc.

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Postby SCVN 2812 » 2002-07-11 12:05am

You keep applying people in modern society to people in 24th century Federation society. The Federation's humanity is made up of people who for many generations now have had the values of the common good and cooperation impressed on them from their post-WW3 ancestors who had to rebuild their world practically from scratch.

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Postby VF5SS » 2002-07-11 12:10am

Well I'm just speaking figuratively from personal experience. People are funny and will continue to be that way. Its a day-to-day struggle and I don't any utopia of humans can really last without suffering. There are a lot of people out there in the real world and ST, you never known.

Are you just taking the piss, Clark?
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Postby TheDarkling » 2002-07-11 12:11am

No there may be fewer eat out places - not essential afterall.

Hmmm going to have to plead common good.

Thats automated - they do have hosts however which is a meet and greet kinda job which people may like.

Common good again.

More evolved as already stated.

Is it realistic ? Is people moving things with their mind or planets blowing up or Time travel.

Your theory has no basis - its just pro wars propaganda.
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Postby John Clark » 2002-07-11 12:12am

Just look at R2-D2 and C3PO. They make a case why, at least in the Empire's view, droids shouldn't have freedom. Would you want extremely intelligent sentient droid life running around?

Now just replace the word "droid" with "Negro" or "Jew" or "Irish" and tell me what you just said doesn't sound like racism.
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Postby Darth Yoshi » 2002-07-11 12:13am

Do they? I thought Starfleet officers were encouraged to bring their families, all civilian except for the officer, onto whatever ship they're serving on. Big waste of space and resources, not to mention putting them in harms way when the Federation Crisis of the Month(TM) hits.
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Postby TheDarkling » 2002-07-11 12:15am

Geordi's parents and a sister are in starfleet.

The Crusher family.

That kid who lost both parents in the line of duty.

Thats enough examples for the moment.

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Postby Robert Treder » 2002-07-11 12:16am

Darth Yoshi wrote:Do they? I thought Starfleet officers were encouraged to bring their families, all civilian except for the officer, onto whatever ship they're serving on. Big waste of space and resources, not to mention putting them in harms way when the Federation Crisis of the Month(TM) hits.


Not to mention that the last fucking thing a military force needs is for its crewmembers to be dealing with their families while on duty.
Too bad Starfleet doesn't seem to realize that.
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Postby Darth Yoshi » 2002-07-11 12:16am

John Clark wrote:Just look at R2-D2 and C3PO. They make a case why, at least in the Empire's view, droids shouldn't have freedom. Would you want extremely intelligent sentient droid life running around?

Now just replace the word "droid" with "Negro" or "Jew" or "Irish" and tell me what you just said doesn't sound like racism.

Nice. Except, droids aren't alive by any biological definition.
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Postby John Clark » 2002-07-11 12:17am

Do they? I thought Starfleet officers were encouraged to bring their families, all civilian except for the officer, onto whatever ship they're serving on. Big waste of space and resources, not to mention putting them in harms way when the Federation Crisis of the Month(TM) hits.

Yeah, that's a great argument, except -- oops! -- it's only true of the Galaxy-class starships, and only up until the Dominion War. Sorry, your point has EXPIRED.
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Postby SCVN 2812 » 2002-07-11 12:18am

People can also suprise you once in a while. Instead of acting selfishly and in their own interests, hundreds of thousands, even millions of people donated billions of dollars to various disaster relief organizations involved in helping the families of 9-11 victims.

Still, I stand by the fact that the Federation's humanity managed to almost destroy their civilization and had to rebuild from that point. You don't rebuild civilization by going about and not helping others and working to accomplish shared goals and instead just attending to your own needs. All it would take for the society in Star Trek's Earth to exist is for the people who rebuilt civilization to pass the values of cooperation and working to improve rather than just for your own desires to their descendents. Considering the fact that our parents typically have a significant influence in our lives whether we want to admit it or not, I don't see this as being so far fetched.
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Postby TheDarkling » 2002-07-11 12:19am

The dual nature of SF is the problem when they switch to military mode families are removed and not all ships allow families.

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Postby Robert Treder » 2002-07-11 12:20am

Darth Yoshi wrote:
John Clark wrote:Just look at R2-D2 and C3PO. They make a case why, at least in the Empire's view, droids shouldn't have freedom. Would you want extremely intelligent sentient droid life running around?

Now just replace the word "droid" with "Negro" or "Jew" or "Irish" and tell me what you just said doesn't sound like racism.

Nice. Except, droids aren't alive by any biological definition.


Precisely. Maybe Mr. Clark thinks it's racist to prohibit the use of cell phones in movie theatres? Or to refuse the admittance of guns on airplanes?
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Postby Darth Yoshi » 2002-07-11 12:22am

Of course that stopped after the Dominion War. The High Command saw how stupid it was to have nonessential civilians on a warship during battle.
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Postby John Clark » 2002-07-11 12:22am

Really? Droids aren't "alive"? Then Data IS more advanced than SW droids! Is THAT what you mean to say?
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Postby TheDarkling » 2002-07-11 12:23am

Droids are sentient, A cellphone isnt
Your response is exactly the response CMDR Maddox give in Measure of a Man and he was cosidered both wrong and very narrow minded.

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Postby Darth Yoshi » 2002-07-11 12:26am

SCVN 2812 wrote:People can also suprise you once in a while. Instead of acting selfishly and in their own interests, hundreds of thousands, even millions of people donated billions of dollars to various disaster relief organizations involved in helping the families of 9-11 victims.


Of course. They could afford to.

Clark: I said biological definition. The federation must be really fucked up if a machine that runs on electricity, which stores info on chips, was built by man, artificially, is defined to be biologically alive.
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Postby TheDarkling » 2002-07-11 12:28am

Darth Yoshi: Yes but you phrased it in such a way that you imlpy biological life matters more than artificial.

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Postby Robert Treder » 2002-07-11 12:30am

TheDarkling wrote:Darth Yoshi: Yes but you phrased it in such a way that you imlpy biological life matters more than artificial.


Doesn't it? Data is a piece of equipment, not a man.
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Postby SCVN 2812 » 2002-07-11 12:31am

They simply have a different definition of life. Data is fully sentient and a unique individual.

Yes, people can afford to help others. Now what if the expense factor is removed completely?

And you failed to address the WW III argument.
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Postby TheDarkling » 2002-07-11 12:32am

Yes hes a machine - you mindset is close to racist - you devalue data because he different from you.

You could have said hes black im white.
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