What's the point???

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 09:23pm

Yes but he does keep his freedom.

Yes but the droids are mistreated.

A can give you a quote on the empires view on non humans "prejudice of the sort that the imperials flaunted when they oppressed us" - spoken by Elegos A'Kla (A non human senator)
He also said this "your blatant ingratitude lends credence to the Imperial vision of our being mere beasts".

Dark Tide 1 : Onslaught Pg 13

Ok but the men outnumber the women by a huge number from what we see on screen.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 09:46pm

John Clark wrote:You don't understand how it works that the Feds prize freedom? Hmm. Do you see anyone in slavery? They even grant their MACHINES and COMPUTER SOFTWARE freedom!

All right, so the Feddies don't have slaves per se. But they work, even though they don't get paid. And don't give me some bullshit about how they've supposedly "evolved" over the last three centuries, they went through WWIII just before the invention of warp drive. A war which, I might add, completely devastated their standard of living (according to STFC). Having your standard of living crash tends to make people less benovelent, as they wory more about themselves. Even after several generations, the psychological effects of said standards crashing will still remain, the older ones having taught the younger ones by example. The only feasible ways are to brainwash them, or use threat of punishment, the latter of which is virtual slavery.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 09:56pm

Prehaps after WW 3 happened and the Vulcans helped rebuild some of their "Needs of the many" thinking rubbed off on them.

Prehaps the fact that the previous human thinking almost destroyed the world shocked them into changing their ways.

A government that doesnt value freedom would have shut Data down and used him to build a robot under class like we see in SW.

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-10 10:03pm

You can't make a case that the Empire is evil based on the lack of droid freedom.

Just look at R2-D2 and C3PO. They make a case why, at least in the Empire's view, droids shouldn't have freedom. Would you want extremely intelligent sentient droid life running around? Would you want a supercomputer runnning every aspect of your house in the 21st Century?

They're basically the same idea. Droids are created for a certain purpose, but an unavoidable side effect is that droids tend to learn capabilites beyond the created purpose, and thus restraining bolts are formed. If you were Industrial Automation, do you want droids that are obedient and do their job or droids that actively rebel their owners (SW: ANH)?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 10:11pm

LMSx: That isnt the reason its just extra evidence that shows the Feds value freedom more than the Imps (Some people are twisting canon to prove the Federation is evil and the Imps are nice - its just Pro wars bias gone mad.)

However the fact that the Techo Liberation Army (That right ?) sides against the Old Republic proves they are capable of independant thought (Viva the Droid revolution).

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 10:12pm

TheDarkling wrote:A government that doesnt value freedom would have shut Data down and used him to build a robot under class like we see in SW.

The Feddies can't built an android army. They don't know how. The only person who knew how Data worked was his creator, and that guy's dead. D-E-D. Dead

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 10:14pm

The entire point of the episode was that if they shut Data down and took him apart they would be (Or so they believed) able to build a Robo worker class.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 10:31pm

That's actually moot. Why would they build a robot workforce if the populace is already willing to work its ass off for no reason? That's the whole reason they have droids - it's cheaper than having a living workforce. Plus it's convenient for the citizens. But if the populace already works for nothing, why bother with the research, development, testing, and manufacturing of robots? To quote Spock, "It is illogical."

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-10 10:32pm

Can you honestly tell me that if tomorrow all your basic needs would be fulfilled and money rendered obsolete by the replicator which can meet all the basic needs of human being...except for a few notable exceptions: love, companionship ect. but then again these aren't really basic and not absolutely essential to existence, and well if you want love or companionship just get out more, you wouldn't do squat? You wouldn't at the most pessimistic, get insanely bored and decide to go out and do something and at the most optimistic try to do something meaningful and useful just to kill time and maybe give your life a purpose other than sitting around doing squat, telling your replicator to make stuff? And if suddenly the technology to end hunger, wipe out basic material needs, and basically render the need to acquire wealth and material possessions obsolete for all of mankind which would have radical, possibly beneficial, effects on society would you ban it because you would rather just keep having to make money in order to even survive?

And that, offered the opportunity to do something that could help all mankind and you really didn't have a problem doing or is just soemthing interesting to begin with (you can't tell me that the prospect of cruising around space, exploring and meeting new species isn't somewhat tempting) but didn't pay anything but you don't have any use for money anyways because you can get most of what you need from a replicator, you would turn down the opportunity because you would rather just sit at home making stuff with your replicator and or go party with friends and family and celebrate not having to pay for nearly anything because the invention of the replicator has devalued currency to the point of it being more trouble than it's worth.

You know, everyone is right, everyone in the Federation is brainwashed. But so is every single person on this board, some more so than others. The indoctrination into our societies begins at birth and our indoctrinators are none other than our own family! By observing them and being taught, we learn what is expected of us from our society and how to function in our society. So you see, there is mass brainwashing going on in the Federation, except that it's the exact same brainwashing going on in our own faultless, wonderous capitalist societies with constraining social levels based on wealth alone. However, this evil Federation society with it's lack of and need for money, and from all visual observations fairly decent standard of living seems to have finally gotten it through their heads that a divided, competing amongst itself humanity does more harm than good and it only took a nuclear war with a death toll in the hundreds of millions, contact with a semi-benevolent race, and the technology to wipe out material need.

A nuclear holocaust alone is enough to raise people's eyebrows. Nationalism has been slowly going the way of the dinosaur among first world nations because of the simple fact that we have become dependent on each other economically and in some cases even militarily. If our paranoia about cooperating with other nations is slowly dying out how long will it be until this phenomenon spreads to the domestic and we see a rise in people helping eachother again rather than trying to put themselves above the rest of humanity by building their own little pedastool on the backs of others? There will of course always been those who cannot give out a life of greed, the Orion Syndicate and Cousin Gala's human partner are prime examples and they will eventually be imprisoned for turning to crime or leave the Federation's jurisdiction alltogether.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 10:50pm

We have people who can do that now. You know, the upper 1% of society (like Bill Gates). They fit the scenario you describe, and they're not philanthropists. They do donate to charity, but I say they do that more more for the public image and tax deduction than for improving society.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2002-07-10 10:58pm

You wouldn't at the most pessimistic, get insanely bored and decide to go out and do something and at the most optimistic try to do something meaningful and useful just to kill time and maybe give your life a purpose other than sitting around doing squat

I would equate getting a replicator to winning the lottery. I would no longer have to worry about basic needs because all my basic needs are taken care of. A job would no longer be necessary, because the job is to get money... which I wouldn't need.

I would instead pursue my own interest... which would be meaningful for me, but not the rest of society. So I wouldn't spend my time being a waiter ... like people do in Star Trek for some reason. Or, I wouldn't be the guy that cleans sewage disposal units... or any of the million and one jobs that would be still required.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 11:04pm

Thank you!

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-10 11:10pm

And you could be and are probably wrong Yoshi. Mr. and Mrs. Gates once visited areas in Africa where they had a chance to see the poor living conditions there. I think seeing people living in conditions that to your standards would be suffering and unacceptable might have a bit of an effect on a person, especially someone in a position to provide some bit of aide. As for Gates himself, he recently stepped down as ceo of Microsoft in favor of a position that would allow him to work more directly with their products, a decision that involved a pay cut. He's got his needs met, so now he's doing what he'd rather be doing even if it doesn't pay as well. This is another recurring thing in society, people work in one field for a while and once they have the savings, they move on to something they would rather be doing. Also if people won't work if they have their needs filled, how do you explain the elderly Walmart greeters? They can't ALL just need the money, some people just want something to do with their time, especially if it's something they like doing. The Walmart greeters don't seem to be very depressed at least the ones at my local store...

After WW III significant amounts of the population were reduced to near survival levels after once living normal lives. Being reduced to this level overnight isn't something that somebody would easily forget. You hear about it all the time, people comming from nothing and then wanting to help others who were still there. Most of humanity after WW III and after First Contact fits at least the former. Humanity would survive with just each individual meeting their own needs and no further but it's impossible to rebuild civilization without large numbers of people working towards shared goals. Perhaps humanity realized this and for once this concept was not forgotten once the rebuilding was finished.

I've let a few issues that I've raised slide by without being noticed but this is not something I will drop: if all your basic needs were met, would you or would not at least consider finding something noble to do with your life.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 11:11pm

Alot of the annoying Jobs have gone Picards brother tends the Vineyards because he wants to, Siskos dad wants to a cook some people become doctors to help people.

We have a canon reason for peoples behaviour in Star Trek - they have evolved, these theories of conditioning have no basis in the show what so ever.

Most of the Jobs we see people performing are their interests so that meshes nicely with what you an unevolved (No offense) human would do.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-10 11:13pm

Zoink wrote:
You wouldn't at the most pessimistic, get insanely bored and decide to go out and do something and at the most optimistic try to do something meaningful and useful just to kill time and maybe give your life a purpose other than sitting around doing squat
I would instead pursue my own interest... which would be meaningful for me, but not the rest of society. So I wouldn't spend my time being a waiter ... like people do in Star Trek for some reason. Or, I wouldn't be the guy that cleans sewage disposal units... or any of the million and one jobs that would be still required.

And yet, can you with 100% certainty rule out that EVERYONE would feel the same way? Besides most of the crappy jobs like sewage disposal cleaning is automated or at least improved to the point where you would probably just hold your nose and point a device with blinking lights at something.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 11:25pm

TheDarkling wrote:We have a canon reason for peoples behaviour in Star Trek - they have evolved, these theories of conditioning have no basis in the show what so ever.

Canon on what basis? Picard's word in STFC? He was trying to impress the woman.
No offense indeed.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2002-07-10 11:29pm

SCVN 2812 wrote: Besides most of the crappy jobs like sewage disposal cleaning is automated or at least improved to the point where you would probably just hold your nose and point a device with blinking lights at something.

But Star Trek is not automated. Replicators (and pretty much everything in Trek) are high maintenance; they need regular fixing.

The problem is: You need people to fill all these jobs. Jobs are now filled because wages attract workers. There are people who would gladly take minimum wage to pick-up garbage (nothing wrong with that, but its no one's dream job). In Star Trek, any possibilty is open, everything from Starfleet to non-stop surfing.

What happens in Star Trek is: You start a restaurant because its your life long dream, then the next day some guy who's life long dream is to be waitor walks in and starts working for free. Then your neighbor says "hey I want a restaurant too"... then another life-long-waitor-wanna-be helps him out. Its a utopian world which can't exist. You need social pressure to force people into these jobs. Currently its unemployement.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 11:29pm

Basically all of ST FC testifies to the fact that the human race gets its act together.

Put some evidence on the table please because I cant see anything supporting your assumptions.

PS A guy in the UK won a few million on the lottery and went back to work the following week because he said he needed something to do (I dont remember his exact job but it was some sort of factory work I believe).

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-10 11:34pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:Thank you!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 11:35pm

Zoink: Replicators high maintenance, are they?

The people working for Sisko's dad was mainly family and one guy - I think, maybe they just like people.

You are comparing our society to theirs and some people in our own still work when they dont need to so why is it so hard to expand that?

Just give me some evidence that htis goes on apart from "it has to".

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 11:42pm

You can't rule everyone out. People are too unpredictable, one of the things Spock noted multiple times in TOS. And because they're so unpredictable, you can't depend on them in the manner you suggest. Meaning there will be enough people to make your system unworkable.

TheDarkling, STFC does nothing of the sort. We never saw any of what you claim. All it establishes is that Borg prowess is severely overrated. Plus, as for the guy in the UK, a few million isn't enough to live off of. I'm not sure how taxes are done in the UK, but in the US, he'll lose a third of his money every year in taxes.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 11:48pm

Well over here a few million is enough to live off - I think it was approx $4.5 mil.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 11:51pm

Also current people make the system likely to fail not the new improved version.

Theres no proof for the brainwashing camp theory but enough evidence to support what we are told, that the society is a Utopia.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-10 11:51pm

You're right, we didn't see any of 24th century life in FC and we've seen little of civilian life in ST, but what we have seen supports the optimistic tone of every comment a Starfleet officer has made about the Federation. Picard's brother is not concerned with making a profit on his wine, just making the wine.

Sisko's father operates a restaurant and does not appear to charge his customers, he just does it because he loves cooking and he enjoys being around people.

The Federation does not charge any of the promenade businesses for the draw in power and resources, even Quark's the largest and most consuming business.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-07-10 11:57pm

For every one man who wants to go out and be with people, there will be a thousand more who just want to stay as far away from everyone as they possibly can. Speaking from experience.