Inaugural Trollish Post

[Nobody]

You've got all the time in the world...

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Good example of his red herring attacks can be found on the Hate Mail page where he's debating with that Rodgers guy (not Ted, the other one).

I think the guy says something about Fed shuttles doing headons into TIEs . Sounds dumb at first but think about it -- Fed shuttles have regular deflectors, and head on they have their nav deflectors added to it. Bad juju for TIES. Wong totally ignored that and acted like the additional deflector power wasn't even involved.

"The remaining TIEs are lured into a deadly game of chicken. The shuttles combine evasion and harrassment tactics to cause the unshielded TIEs to collide with terrain, each other and the shuttles' navigational deflection fields, mopping up survivors with phaser fire."



Is what Rodgers (or YOU?) said. Look at this stupidness. It ignores that Tie Fighters will be shooting. And how does it hit terrain at high altitudes or in space. And those arguments are what Mike put.

Oh and for "extra power" In "DS9: Battlefields" or something like that title, a blast less then 1 gigajoule disabled a Runabout. Let's say it was 1 gigajoule. Let's say "extra power" means x1000 times as powerful. Let's assume a Tie's only 20 tons and only moving at 20 km/sec. That's still 4 terajoules of KE, 4 times as much needed to kill a runabout which is stronger then a shuttle!

The Rodgers guy also mentions something about snipers in Fed escape pods launched toward ISDs. Now we know that a slow moving object can pass through Imperial shields, so why not escape pods? Sure, the Imps MIGHT destroy the pods, but why would they do that? Why waste firepower on something that isn't remotely a threat?




Wong, though, totally distorts the argument, first by saying that the snipers would be shooting at Imperial escape pods, then that the snipers are shooting FROM Imperial escape pods, and then that it's just dumb anyway.

No, Mike misunderstood!

He TOTALLY IGNORES what his opponent is actually suggesting.

There's your proof.

Lier. Once Mike understands, he responds!

"With a blanket of ECM, how do you think this sniper's rifle is supposed to pick anything up? From a moving platform at a range of a kilometre or more, how do you expect a sniper to hit anything or anyone? With dense armour and bulkheads in the way (keeping in mind that heavy metals disrupt both sensors and transporters), what makes you think it would work at all?"


Oops.

[John Clarke]

Okay, but what he did NOT incluce was this response, paraphrased here:

They launch EMC why? They have no knowledge of transporters. They have no knowledge of the weapon to be used against them. Mike was giving the Imperials credit for knowledge they simply could not have.

And your idea that a TIE fighter weighs 20 tons is backed up by what material?

Third, the scenario as Rodgers described it both to me and in his post to Wong has the aerial battle being fought at well under 20,000 feet. Do you mean to tell me that TIES can perform high-speed maneuvers at that altitude?

Last, yes, the TIES are shooting. It wouldn't be a DOGFIGHT otherwise. Why do you think the shuttles are engaging in these tactics? Unlike Imperials, who apparently have more arrogance than brains, the Starfleet pilots are attempting not only to survive, but to prevail.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Okay, but what he did NOT incluce was this response, paraphrased here:

They launch EMC why? They have no knowledge of transporters. They have no knowledge of the weapon to be used against them. Mike was giving the Imperials credit for knowledge they simply could not have.

Prove Rodgers put that. And ECM is present at ALL battles, with or without transports

And your idea that a TIE fighter weighs 20 tons is backed up by what material?

Common sense. A P-47 weighed 17,500 pounds loaded, and a tie should weigh more.

Third, the scenario as Rodgers described it both to me and in his post to Wong has the aerial battle being fought at well under 20,000 feet. Do you mean to tell me that TIES can perform high-speed maneuvers at that altitude?

He does not say ANYTHING about altitude.

Last, yes, the TIES are shooting. It wouldn't be a DOGFIGHT otherwise. Why do you think the shuttles are engaging in these tactics? Unlike Imperials, who apparently have more arrogance than brains, the Starfleet pilots are attempting not only to survive, but to prevail.

WTF are you on about? Ties don't want to prevail? Those Ties that shot down 27 rebel fighters wanted to prevail (out of 30, Luke, Wedge and a Y-Wing survived)

[John Clarke]

Regarding TIES and P-47s, 17.000 pounds or so is only just over 8 tons, and a TIE cannot possibly weigh that much more, being mainly a hollow sphere with two stubby pylons holding two very thin solar sails (I'm sure you'll tell me that's not what they are, but you know what I'm referring to.)

I've reviewed his post (or what remains of it here) and I don't see anything about the altitude. However (and I'm sure this won't count for much) he used the same scenario in a vs. fanfic he wrote, and it is explicitly stated to be an atmospheric battle there in which no fighter or shuttle exceeds 20,000 feet until the battle's conclusion, at which time the surviving shuttlecraft return to the ship.

[John Clarke]

As far as proving what Rodgers did and did not post to Wong, as I said, I'm working on getting the entire posting exchange from him. Once I have it, I'll post it here, assuming there's room. It may be more expedient to post merely what Wong refused to address, with the emails to which Rodgers was replying for reference frames.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Regarding TIES and P-47s, 17.000 pounds or so is only just over 8 tons, and a TIE cannot possibly weigh that much more, being mainly a hollow sphere with two stubby pylons holding two very thin solar sails (I'm sure you'll tell me that's not what they are, but you know what I'm referring to.)

Wrong. That hollow sphere need large laser cannons that are near kiloton probably, 2 large engines that can accelerate to near c, fuel for all this, sensors, communication, etc..

I've reviewed his post (or what remains of it here) and I don't see anything about the altitude. However (and I'm sure this won't count for much) he used the same scenario in a vs. fanfic he wrote, and it is explicitly stated to be an atmospheric battle there in which no fighter or shuttle exceeds 20,000 feet until the battle's conclusion, at which time the surviving shuttlecraft return to the ship.

No it doesn't


"The USS Mantred arrives in orbit. It cannot penetrate the sensor jamming or transport its men into the colony, but ordinary optical scans reveal the TIE fighters and walkers parked in a large clearing outside the colony. It launches its shuttles, which enter the atmosphere at maximum speed, swooping down to destroy all of the parked fighters and walkers. Now that Imperial armour and air support is gone, the USS Mantred beams down all 2000 men to the surface, outside the region affected by the transport interdictors.

As the Federation shuttles fly toward the colony, a barrage of shoulder-launched surface to air missiles and high-powered blaster bolts rises up out of the jungle to meet them. Five of the shuttles are downed immediately, and the rest try to gain altitude. At that moment, all 40 TIE fighters rise up out of the jungle on their repulsorlifts. It seems that the walkers and TIE fighters sitting nicely in the clearing were nothing more than painted wooden decoys! In the confusion, the pilots respond poorly to the sudden appearance of the TIE fighters, and due to the heavy jamming, it isn't until the enemy fighters are well within visual range that they can finally pick them up clearly on their sensors.

The TIE pilots, on the other hand, have training and experience in techniques for fighting in high-ECM conditions, and with an 8 to 1 numerical advantage, they quickly destroy the Starfleet shuttles. The TIE fighters climb rapidly, heading straight toward the now-defenseless transport vessel. It leaves orbit and escapes."


It never says any altitude. And I'm no expert, but since when does the atmosphere end at 20 000 feet?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

As far as proving what Rodgers did and did not post to Wong, as I said, I'm working on getting the entire posting exchange from him. Once I have it, I'll post it here, assuming there's room. It may be more expedient to post merely what Wong refused to address, with the emails to which Rodgers was replying for reference frames.

I want the whole post.

[John Clarke]

Quoted from Grand Admiral Thrawn:

""The USS Mantred arrives in orbit. It cannot penetrate the sensor jamming or transport its men into the colony, but ordinary optical scans reveal the TIE fighters and walkers parked in a large clearing outside the colony. It launches its shuttles, which enter the atmosphere at maximum speed, swooping down to destroy all of the parked fighters and walkers. Now that Imperial armour and air support is gone, the USS Mantred beams down all 2000 men to the surface, outside the region affected by the transport interdictors.

As the Federation shuttles fly toward the colony, a barrage of shoulder-launched surface to air missiles and high-powered blaster bolts rises up out of the jungle to meet them. Five of the shuttles are downed immediately, and the rest try to gain altitude. At that moment, all 40 TIE fighters rise up out of the jungle on their repulsorlifts. It seems that the walkers and TIE fighters sitting nicely in the clearing were nothing more than painted wooden decoys! In the confusion, the pilots respond poorly to the sudden appearance of the TIE fighters, and due to the heavy jamming, it isn't until the enemy fighters are well within visual range that they can finally pick them up clearly on their sensors.

The TIE pilots, on the other hand, have training and experience in techniques for fighting in high-ECM conditions, and with an 8 to 1 numerical advantage, they quickly destroy the Starfleet shuttles. The TIE fighters climb rapidly, heading straight toward the now-defenseless transport vessel. It leaves orbit and escapes."


It never says any altitude. And I'm no expert, but since when does the atmosphere end at 20 000 feet?"

First of all, that exerpt was NOT what Rodgers wrote. Second, no one said the atmosphere ends at 20,000 feet. What Rodgers stated was that the Starfleet shuttle pilots engaged TIES at an altitude no greater than 20,000 feet.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

{snip quote}
First of all, that exerpt was NOT what Rodgers wrote. Second, no one said the atmosphere ends at 20,000 feet. What Rodgers stated was that the Starfleet shuttle pilots engaged TIES at an altitude no greater than 20,000 feet.

Ah yes, you're talking about some vs. fan fic he wrote not Mike's senarios. Which he NEVER MENTIONED IN THE DEBATE

[John Clarke]

Go read his posts -- the scenario is mentioned quite clearly.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Go read his posts -- the scenario is mentioned quite clearly.

AND IT NEVER MENTIONED ALTITUDE!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

There, you've just proved you're a lier.

[John Clarke]

I'VE ALREADY CONCEDED THAT ALTITUDE IS NOT EXPLICITLY STATED!

And now let me ask you... at what altitude is TERRAIN TYPICALLY ENCOUNTERED?

[John Clarke]

On a side note, Thrawn... before you decide to call someone a name -- learn how to spell it.

I am not a liar.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I'VE ALREADY CONCEDED THAT ALTITUDE IS NOT EXPLICITLY STATED!

And now let me ask you... at what altitude is TERRAIN TYPICALLY ENCOUNTERED?

Then WTF was this huh?


"What Rodgers stated was that the Starfleet shuttle pilots engaged TIES at an altitude no greater than 20,000 feet."



Oh and the terrain ther is only forests AFAIK though I could be wrong.

[John Clarke]

WTF was that? A statement of fact.

I concede that Rodgers did not explicitly state an altitude in his post to Wong (at least as those posts appear on SD) but he has explicitly stated such in his fanfic and such statement does not contradict what does appear in his posts here. So freakin there.

[Durandal]

You know, you seem to know Rogers quite well. What's your relation to him? Are you stalking him and intercepting his E-mails with Mike, or are you actually Rogers, himself and just too cowardly to admit it? Right now, you expect us to believe that you know exactly what Rogers wrote to Mike Wong, and that Mike Wong didn't put it on his site. You're asking us to accept something which you cannot prove and we cannot disprove. Unless you produce a valid E-mail message from Rogers with correct headers, you're a fucking liar.

[John Clarke]

Well, and a hearty "Fuck you, too!" Durandal. My relationship to the Rodgers family happens to be my fucking business.

For more information, please insert your hand into your ass and snap your fingers.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

WTF was that? A statement of fact.

I concede that Rodgers did not explicitly state an altitude in his post to Wong (at least as those posts appear on SD) but he has explicitly stated such in his fanfic and such statement does not contradict what does appear in his posts here. So freakin there.

Doesn't matter. He NEVER says anything about his fan fic or altitude in his post

[Rob Wilson]

"Ecept if you read the Hate Mail in question rather than the erroneous posting of the person that brought it up A) Mike didn't treat it as a red herring he actaully answered the point and laughed at the idiot that made it, Rogers never answered him back on it. B) The point had nothing to do with Phasers as Rogers actually was talking about *ramming* the TIE's head-on."

Actually, you're wrong. Rodgers DID answer Wong's reply. Wong simply did not INCLUDE that answer, as he could not refute it. Do you understand that point being made? Let's state it simply:

1. Wong HOSTS the Hate Mail page.
2. Wong EDITS the Hate Mail page, which means:
3. Wong is able to include or exclude material in such a way as to manipulate the overall tone and context of what appears in the exchanges which appear on his Hate Mail page. Wong is responsible to nothing but his own conscience, and his conscience apparently does not issue even the smallest whimper at his lack of ethics or impartiality. He clearly admits as much on this site.

Maybe it's time for some of those reading this to take a break from cooing over what Wong says, and ask yourselves what Wong does NOT say.

How about you provide proof of this. Come on, if you know that rodgers replied, lets see this reply. Out of interest, if Wong never answered or posted the reply anywhere, how do you know about it? Are you a friend of MR Rodgers and attempting to make snide and trite remarks as some form of defence for the arrant nonsense that Rodgers said?

Here's a clue, the idiotic ramblings from that particular Hate Mail entry showed the lack of thought and knowledge of the mailer not the website host because the mailer was saying idiotic things. Now either put up or shut up

[John Clarke]

Yes, Thrawn, it DOES matter, because he does explicitly state that the terrain is used as a factor in the aerial combat and you DO NOT encounter TERRAIN at more than 20,000 feet without mountains, which are NEVER mentioned, either in his posts or in Wong's original scenario, so ONCE AGAIN, EAT 'EM AND SMILE!

[John Clarke]

Hey Rob... nah, forget it.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Then he's an idiot for assumign they'll be so low.

[John Clarke]

You know, this is exactly what he told me to expect.

"he's an idiot"
"blah blah"

Apparently, this ad hominem shit is endemic to you Star Wars people. When you can't win, you just call the other guy filthy names until he doesn't debate you any more, and then you howl that you're victorious. Sick.