Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-25 02:28pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-25 02:27pm
They evacuated in a hurry. Maybe they left their fuel reserves on the ground?
Perhaps, I assumed they would have been fuelled up whereever they came from since they weren't in TFA.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-25 02:31pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-01-25 02:28pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-25 02:27pm
They evacuated in a hurry. Maybe they left their fuel reserves on the ground?
Perhaps, I assumed they would have been fuelled up whereever they came from since they weren't in TFA.
I don't think we can assume that the ships we saw on-screen in TFA were the whole Resistance fleet, any more than we can assume that the X-wings and Y-wings on-screen at Yavin were the whole Rebel fleet. They might have had (indeed, probably had) ships dispersed elsewhere, as there would be no point to sending cruisers against Starkiller Base any more than against the Death Star.

So they might have been elsewhere on operations, being scheduled to return and refuel, and then told "Sorry, got to evacuate now."

Alternatively, they were defections to the Resistance when the New Republic met its premature and undignified death. I mean... surely the whole navy wasn't at Hosnia?

In that case, they might have had to flee without time to fuel-up, especially if the world they were based at surrendered/defected to the First Order.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-25 02:35pm

Yeah. All viable theories.

My main point was 'I don't think two hyper jumps or one and a few hours action are all a fully fuelled ship can manage' the whys of how they ended up with the ships are interesting but tangential.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-25 02:44pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-01-25 02:35pm
Yeah. All viable theories.

My main point was 'I don't think two hyper jumps or one and a few hours action are all a fully fuelled ship can manage' the whys of how they ended up with the ships are interesting but tangential.
Agreed. It wouldn't fit with prior depictions for that to be typical of starship endurance.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by the atom » 2018-01-27 01:38am

CetaMan wrote:
2017-12-31 04:51pm
But to actually go on the topic, are we sure supremacy is firing turbos?
Even if they aren't, none of the *normal* turbolasers even attempted to engage the rebel fleet at any point, which suggests that the guns we saw were the longest ranged weapons in the whole fleet, so it's safe to say it sets a hard upper limit either way
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by CetaMan » 2018-01-27 03:21pm

Which is ironic because we see turbo lasers firing from longer ranges in other Disney-cannon media.

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-27 03:24pm

There may be a great difference between "maximum range" and "maximum effective range", of course. With maximum effective range varying depending on the size, maneuverability and shielding of the target.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Silver Jedi » 2018-01-27 03:52pm

the atom wrote:
2018-01-27 01:38am
CetaMan wrote:
2017-12-31 04:51pm
But to actually go on the topic, are we sure supremacy is firing turbos?
Even if they aren't, none of the *normal* turbolasers even attempted to engage the rebel fleet at any point, which suggests that the guns we saw were the longest ranged weapons in the whole fleet, so it's safe to say it sets a hard upper limit either way
It may or may not be significant, but the regular Star Destroyers never fire a shot (turbolaser or otherwise) the entire movie.

They don't shoot at the Resistance bombers and fighters as they approach the Fulminatrix (the Dreadnought), they don't shoot at the Resistance transports or capships while the Fulminatrix's autocannon is charging up to shoot the base or later when it's charging up to shoot the Raddus, or after the Fulminatrix has been destroyed and the Resistance capships are waiting to recover the fighters.

They don't fire a single time that we see during the "chase" (all of the arcing space-howitzer shots come from the Supremacy), including the constant harassment, the actual destruction of the smaller ships as they ran out of fuel, the destruction of the escaping transports, or after Hux orders the fleet to fire on the Raddus just before the hyperramming. They also don't even consider using the surviving Destroyers to bombard the planet, despite the fact that they aren't taking any prisoners.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-27 03:57pm

For the final one, they don't bombard the base because it has a shield. It's mentioned in dialogue. Presumably similar to Hoth's but doesn't seem to restrict fighter use the same way Hoth's did.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-27 04:38pm

Silver Jedi wrote:
2018-01-27 03:52pm
the atom wrote:
2018-01-27 01:38am
CetaMan wrote:
2017-12-31 04:51pm
But to actually go on the topic, are we sure supremacy is firing turbos?
Even if they aren't, none of the *normal* turbolasers even attempted to engage the rebel fleet at any point, which suggests that the guns we saw were the longest ranged weapons in the whole fleet, so it's safe to say it sets a hard upper limit either way
It may or may not be significant, but the regular Star Destroyers never fire a shot (turbolaser or otherwise) the entire movie.
That seems to be a general trait of the Disney canon- they treated ISDs in a similar manner in Rebels. They seem to be playing up SDs' role as carriers, and downplaying their role as ship-to-ship combatants.
They don't shoot at the Resistance bombers and fighters as they approach the Fulminatrix (the Dreadnought), they don't shoot at the Resistance transports or capships while the Fulminatrix's autocannon is charging up to shoot the base or later when it's charging up to shoot the Raddus, or after the Fulminatrix has been destroyed and the Resistance capships are waiting to recover the fighters.
It is odd, I agree, though you can try to cobble together an explanation for why the maximum range would be so limited (see previous posts).

Granted, Star Wars has always had a disproportionate fixation on fighters over capital ship combat. In fact, TLJ was one of the better films in terms of showing some capital ship action, even if some other ships stayed mysteriously silent.

That said, I can justify them not firing on Poe's fighter attack easily enough- the guns of the dreadnought under attack weren't doing any good despite being at point-blank range, and they would not have wanted to risk hitting their own fighters during the dogfight.
They don't fire a single time that we see during the "chase" (all of the arcing space-howitzer shots come from the Supremacy), including the constant harassment, the actual destruction of the smaller ships as they ran out of fuel, the destruction of the escaping transports, or after Hux orders the fleet to fire on the Raddus just before the hyperramming. They also don't even consider using the surviving Destroyers to bombard the planet, despite the fact that they aren't taking any prisoners.
I wonder how intact the surviving destroyers were. Just because they weren't literally torn apart doesn't mean they escaped the vicinity of that attack unscathed.

Though this probably comes down partly to Kylo being Kylo- wanting to strike down his enemies and confirm that they were dead personally. Sith gonna Sith, and nobody ever said Kylo Ren was a great tactician- in fact, even freaking Hux chides him repeatedly for getting distracted during the engagement.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Silver Jedi » 2018-01-27 08:17pm

Duplicate post :oops:
Last edited by Silver Jedi on 2018-01-27 08:26pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Silver Jedi » 2018-01-27 08:20pm

ugh, duplicate post
Last edited by Silver Jedi on 2018-01-27 08:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Silver Jedi » 2018-01-27 08:20pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-27 04:38pm
That seems to be a general trait of the Disney canon- they treated ISDs in a similar manner in Rebels. They seem to be playing up SDs' role as carriers, and downplaying their role as ship-to-ship combatants.
The Sequel Trilogy (and by extension the disney canon as a whole) seems to be built on brainbugs and dim recollections of the OT as much as anything else.
Granted, Star Wars has always had a disproportionate fixation on fighters over capital ship combat. In fact, TLJ was one of the better films in terms of showing some capital ship action, even if some other ships stayed mysteriously silent.
Every other film bent over backwards to construct scenarios where fighters would be useful against capital ships, and even then the pilots themselves were incredulous ("Pardon me for asking, sir, but what good are snub fighters going to be against that?", "Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?", etc.). Even TLJ uses this as a plot device at one point to force Kylo to disengage. The opening of TLJ offers no justification and just ignores this because the plot requires it.
That said, I can justify them not firing on Poe's fighter attack easily enough- the guns of the dreadnought under attack weren't doing any good despite being at point-blank range, and they would not have wanted to risk hitting their own fighters during the dogfight.
Nope, they specifically state that he's too close for the guns -- I'd assume that means they can't traverse fast enough to track him at point blank range. That is exactly the situation you'd want the destroyer escort to help out. And that has nothing to do with the rest of the fighters and bombers who also had to come up from the planet and didn't have the benefit of a jury-rigged booster engine to get them in close. We see them approach from long distance at slow speed, and still no one shoots at them. If they were out of range that whole time, why did Poe have to pull his whole prank call bit when he made the same approach?
They don't fire a single time that we see during the "chase" (all of the arcing space-howitzer shots come from the Supremacy), including the constant harassment, the actual destruction of the smaller ships as they ran out of fuel, the destruction of the escaping transports, or after Hux orders the fleet to fire on the Raddus just before the hyperramming. They also don't even consider using the surviving Destroyers to bombard the planet, despite the fact that they aren't taking any prisoners.
I wonder how intact the surviving destroyers were. Just because they weren't literally torn apart doesn't mean they escaped the vicinity of that attack unscathed.
True, but this also begs the same question that the entire chase did: where is the rest of the FO starfleet? Pan galactic travel is both trivial and fast enough via hyperdrive that reinforcements, if available, should be able to arrive a few hours after being called in. If the remaining FO flotilla on the Crait system has all been mission killed, they'll be relying on more ships to come in and salvage the surviving personnel and materiel anyway, why not have them bombard the planet out from under the rebels?
Though this probably comes down partly to Kylo being Kylo- wanting to strike down his enemies and confirm that they were dead personally. Sith gonna Sith, and nobody ever said Kylo Ren was a great tactician- in fact, even freaking Hux chides him repeatedly for getting distracted during the engagement.
And this is what it all comes down to. The First Order is shown to be so inept throughout this movie that at a certain point it's just easier to chalk some of this up to user incompetence rather than technical inability.

More broadly, TLJ contradicts so much of established canon wrt how starship tech works, at what point do we stop trying to fit it in and start trying to come up with in-universe explanations for why it might have been a major outlier? I mean, this could even be something like a supply issue. Maybe instead of turbolaser technology inexplicably and radically changed after thousands of years, it's just that the space Neo-Nazis had a contract dispute with the mining guild and couldn't get enough tibanna gas to use their regular weapons, so they had to rely on these weird indirect-fire-in-zero-gee mass drivers instead.
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-01-27 03:57pm
For the final one, they don't bombard the base because it has a shield. It's mentioned in dialogue. Presumably similar to Hoth's but doesn't seem to restrict fighter use the same way Hoth's did.
Which doesn't stop them from blowing the planet out from under them, so to speak. If they BDZ the entire planet other than what's covered by the shield, that would probably render the base uninhabitable anyway. This may take longer, and makes it impossible to take prisoners, but neither of those are concerns in this case.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by the atom » 2018-01-28 12:05am

Silver Jedi wrote:
2018-01-27 03:52pm
the atom wrote:
2018-01-27 01:38am
CetaMan wrote:
2017-12-31 04:51pm
But to actually go on the topic, are we sure supremacy is firing turbos?
Even if they aren't, none of the *normal* turbolasers even attempted to engage the rebel fleet at any point, which suggests that the guns we saw were the longest ranged weapons in the whole fleet, so it's safe to say it sets a hard upper limit either way
It may or may not be significant, but the regular Star Destroyers never fire a shot (turbolaser or otherwise) the entire movie.

They don't shoot at the Resistance bombers and fighters as they approach the Fulminatrix (the Dreadnought), they don't shoot at the Resistance transports or capships while the Fulminatrix's autocannon is charging up to shoot the base or later when it's charging up to shoot the Raddus, or after the Fulminatrix has been destroyed and the Resistance capships are waiting to recover the fighters.

They don't fire a single time that we see during the "chase" (all of the arcing space-howitzer shots come from the Supremacy), including the constant harassment, the actual destruction of the smaller ships as they ran out of fuel, the destruction of the escaping transports, or after Hux orders the fleet to fire on the Raddus just before the hyperramming. They also don't even consider using the surviving Destroyers to bombard the planet, despite the fact that they aren't taking any prisoners.
This kinda implies bad things about their max range no? I mean it's not like we've ever actually seen a star destroyer shoot that far in a movie before, we always just sort of assumed they could.

Also I'm pretty sure the reason they didn't try to bombard the rebels was because of a shield but I could be misremembering.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-01-28 12:35am

I am not sure why people are putting forward mass drivers as an explanation of why the Supremacy's fire arcs. A mass driver in a vacuum goes in a straight line too.

The only logical explaination is that its some sort of guided weapon, and there is a benefit to them arcing. The only reason I could see this being a benefit is that since shields can be localized it might allow you to shoot around them when one area is intentionally strengthened and another weakened. We all know, though, that the writers were not thinking that.

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by KraytKing » 2018-01-28 10:36am

It's just a blindingly stupid thing to put in the movie. Either the writers know nothing of how space works or they think we don't. It's one of those things where you wonder how it got through animation without SOMEone saying it was stupid.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-01-28 12:36pm

Well of course its stupid, I am just having fun with it. Fiddling while Coruscant burns so to speak. I would use the more topical TFA reference, but they writers didn't bother to give their burning planet a name, so...

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-28 12:43pm

Silver Jedi wrote:
2018-01-27 08:20pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-01-27 03:57pm
For the final one, they don't bombard the base because it has a shield. It's mentioned in dialogue. Presumably similar to Hoth's but doesn't seem to restrict fighter use the same way Hoth's did.
Which doesn't stop them from blowing the planet out from under them, so to speak. If they BDZ the entire planet other than what's covered by the shield, that would probably render the base uninhabitable anyway. This may take longer, and makes it impossible to take prisoners, but neither of those are concerns in this case.
If you go by old calcs maybe. In the New canon it seems like you need something the size of a dreadnought to achieving anything like those effects. Or they wouldn't have needed it at the start of the film.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-01-28 01:03pm

I just figured it was supposed to be able to breach a theater shield outright. I didn't have a problem with that concept. Its just a torpedo sphere but SUPPER LENS FLARE FAST.

Theoretically if you can build a Death Star that can breach a planetary shield, something less should be able to do the same to a theater shield. That's assuming the resistance to damage scales with the reduction in size. Theater shields could be just as tough as planetary shields, just covering a smaller area. Or tougher for that matter. what if you used a full on planetary shield generator, but only projected it over a smaller area at full power?

It doesn't matter though because we the audience already know the place was evacuated, so there is no tension involved in whether they blow it up or not. There is no consequence to whether it works or how it works, it literally doesn't matter. Doubly so because you knew it was going to die the second it showed up, they could have skipped the ten minutes of yo mama jokes, shield defying Poe RedBull sponsored stunt flying, and Memphis Bell IN SPACE shenanigans and just had the Supreacy show up and do what happened anyway without changing anything in the rest of the movie.

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-01-28 01:09pm

KraytKing wrote:
2018-01-28 10:36am
It's just a blindingly stupid thing to put in the movie. Either the writers know nothing of how space works or they think we don't. It's one of those things where you wonder how it got through animation without SOMEone saying it was stupid.
I can assure you, the art/tech people have no say in the matter. They can say it, but they can't change it. If Lord High Director or someone from on high demands it, it'll be done.

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by FedRebel » 2018-01-29 08:04am

fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-01-28 01:09pm
KraytKing wrote:
2018-01-28 10:36am
It's just a blindingly stupid thing to put in the movie. Either the writers know nothing of how space works or they think we don't. It's one of those things where you wonder how it got through animation without SOMEone saying it was stupid.
I can assure you, the art/tech people have no say in the matter. They can say it, but they can't change it. If Lord High Director or someone from on high demands it, it'll be done.
That has to change, that sentiment is what destroyed Star Trek

Given that Disney Star Wars has a revolving door of creators and they are legion, a writers bible and canon inquisition are necessitated

Prior to the acquisition things had to go through Lucas, occasionally Lucas himself would lobby for something insane (Maul and Darth Talon team up) and he had to be educated on his own universe.

If TLJ has demonstrated that the old checks and balances are gone, dark times be ahead

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-29 05:10pm

I don't think it would be appropriate for the art/tech. people to exercise a veto over the writers and directors- they're making films, not technical journals on the Star Wars universe.

That said, I do think that any large franchise needs certain basic rules reg. canon and themes that are set more or less in stone, and above all, a high degree of communication between different directors and writers (with someone in a position of overall authority to mediate disputes) to keep blatant contradictions and infighting from occurring.

I don't know enough of what's going on behind the scenes to say weather Star Wars currently has either of those, though.

Edit: I'll be interested to see how much of TLJ Abrams follows, or decides to retcon, on the next film. That could indicate a lot about how much communication is going on between directors and writers on different films.
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2018-01-31 04:20am

Patroklos wrote:
2018-01-28 12:35am
I am not sure why people are putting forward mass drivers as an explanation of why the Supremacy's fire arcs. A mass driver in a vacuum goes in a straight line too.
Would it appear so if all ships are accelerating?

In space, a ship would hold its velocity and could deactivate its engines. It needs its engines only to change its velocity.

And yet the fuel supplies of the Rebel fleet was dwindling.

Ergo: The Rebel fleet had its engines activated the whole time.

Ergo: The Rebel fleet was accelerating the whole time.

Ergo: The First Order fleet was accelerating too.

But if a First Order ship fires a mass-driver-projectile, it would - after leaving the mass driver - fly with a constant velocity while the Rebel fleet and the First Order fleet were accelerating.

Ergo: It makes sense that from the perspective of an observer that has the same velocity as the fleets and thus does not notice the fleets acceleration, the mass driver projectiles would not fly in a straight line.

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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-01-31 04:55am

WATCH-MAN wrote:
2018-01-31 04:20am
Patroklos wrote:
2018-01-28 12:35am
I am not sure why people are putting forward mass drivers as an explanation of why the Supremacy's fire arcs. A mass driver in a vacuum goes in a straight line too.
Would it appear so if all ships are accelerating?

In space, a ship would hold its velocity and could deactivate its engines. It needs its engines only to change its velocity.

And yet the fuel supplies of the Rebel fleet was dwindling.

Ergo: The Rebel fleet had its engines activated the whole time.

Ergo: The Rebel fleet was accelerating the whole time.

Ergo: The First Order fleet was accelerating too.

But if a First Order ship fires a mass-driver-projectile, it would - after leaving the mass driver - fly with a constant velocity while the Rebel fleet and the First Order fleet were accelerating.

Ergo: It makes sense that from the perspective of an observer that has the same velocity as the fleets and thus does not notice the fleets acceleration, the mass driver projectiles would not fly in a straight line.
They are in a chase, one directly behind the other, so what you would actually see (well measure as the distances are too close and the time too short to actuall SEE), is that the projectile would appear to slow its closing velocity as it approached the Raddus.

Its possible that given the beam of the Supremacy that if it was using a weapon's emplacement from one of its "wing" tips, meaning the firing angle does not coincide with the thrust vector of either ship so there would be a curve observed. I don't believe we observe this, or at least not at an offset we would be able to visibly notice it.

Another option is if the Raddus or the Supremacy moving off the escape vector for whatever reason at the time of firing. However, this seems unlikely as that would waste fuel in the case of the Raddus (especially if the Supremacy can follow suit) or would open the distance between the ships in the case of th Supremacy (the opposite of what the FO wants).

Additionally, just from simple observation the mass drivers don't make sense. For a mass driver to be effective given its damage mode, the round has to either really fast or really big. If you can do both great. From observation neither seem to be the case from the weapons we see hitting Raddus. If there are two ships in a chase situation, both undergoing engine burns on the same vector, and presumably given the tech level the change in velocity for each must be significant. Again in this situation we see, from an observer on either ship, the incoming fire appreciably slow down as it closed with the target. We don't see this. Also, unless the ships themselves are accelerating as fast as the mass driver is accelerating its projectiles (possible, but not probably, and then your armaments will never work in a chase), we shouldn't be able to discern any travel time at all for the shots fired. Given the distances shown and the velocities needed for a mass driver to be threatening (especially to SW tech level ships), it should be an instantaneous fire to hit to human observers.

So given that we don't see any noticeable slowing of the weapons fire, it appears to independently change direction relative to a constant vector source and target and near constant relative position between course and target, and and is actually able to close this distance when both are actively accelerating along the same vector the following should be true

1.) This projectile has some ability to self propel independently after being fired.
2.) This weapons own propulsion has to be able to accelerate itself faster than both the source and target vessel.
3.) It is guided.
4.) It can do all of this while still being able to fit a damage mechanism that dangerous to the Raddus, but that is diminished with either distance traveled or time in operation.

Given that, I postulate that these have to be some sort of missile, and the warhead and fuel and/or reaction mass of this missile are the same.

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Elheru Aran
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Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-01-31 11:57am

Patroklos wrote:
2018-01-31 04:55am
Given that, I postulate that these have to be some sort of missile, and the warhead and fuel and/or reaction mass of this missile are the same.
Not impossible; remember that weird homing-turbolaser shit from TFA?

It MAY be that the First Order decided to use missile tech and combine it in some fashion with energy weapons. Most missiles in SW seem to involve an energy sheath or some such anyway (proton torpedoes, concussion missiles in ROTJ)... the main exception I can recall are the buzz-droid missiles in ROTS. I'm sure there are more that I haven't thought of, of course.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

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