Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6627
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2017-12-15 04:17pm

In The Last Jedi, the Resistance makes a fighting retreat from the First Order, with the ships in visual range of each other. The distance between the First Order ships affects the turbolasers' damage done to the Resistance ships' shields. What does this tell us about both Star Wars shields and turbolasers in normal space combat? What does this change, if anything, in regards to combating Trek ships?

Discuss.
Image

User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 886
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Khaat » 2017-12-15 04:59pm

Haven't seen it yet. Is it possible that with the bad guys only behind them, the Resistance ships are able to "double rear" their deflector shields?
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6627
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2017-12-15 08:07pm

Khaat wrote:
2017-12-15 04:59pm
Haven't seen it yet. Is it possible that with the bad guys only behind them, the Resistance ships are able to "double rear" their deflector shields?
They do that, eventually, for story spoiler reasons. For most of the film, it doesn't matter as they are just out of effective turbolaser range, meaning that normal SW shields can hold up if just a bit farther away.
Image

User avatar
KraytKing
Padawan Learner
Posts: 275
Joined: 2016-04-11 06:39pm
Location: Wayland

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by KraytKing » 2017-12-16 12:19pm

A related question: in a movie stupid enough to give a massless bolt of energy in zero gravity an arc, can we really trust the range shown?

Not to say we should ignore it, mind you. Just that if it contradicts the OT, go with the OT.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

--Mace

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-12-18 08:07pm

I haven't seen the film yet, and I apologize for not knowing the answer to this question off the top of my head (been a long time since I did much Star Wars tech. debating), but do we know that turbolaser bolts are massless, or pure energy? They're obviously not lasers, name not withstanding, as has been gone over a billion times or so.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
CetaMan
Youngling
Posts: 113
Joined: 2015-08-28 02:44am
Location: Alberta, Canada (Eh?)

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by CetaMan » 2017-12-18 08:40pm

Its a significantly shorter range then what we have seen combat on-screen before. Probably just trying to make sure the audience can see all the ships for visual effects...

User avatar
KraytKing
Padawan Learner
Posts: 275
Joined: 2016-04-11 06:39pm
Location: Wayland

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by KraytKing » 2017-12-18 09:46pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-12-18 08:07pm
I haven't seen the film yet, and I apologize for not knowing the answer to this question off the top of my head (been a long time since I did much Star Wars tech. debating), but do we know that turbolaser bolts are massless, or pure energy? They're obviously not lasers, name not withstanding, as has been gone over a billion times or so.
You're right. Mostly tibanna. My mistake.


Regardless, it's deep space. Mass or not, there's no arc.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

--Mace

User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37272
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Contact:

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2017-12-21 01:22am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-12-18 08:07pm
I haven't seen the film yet, and I apologize for not knowing the answer to this question off the top of my head (been a long time since I did much Star Wars tech. debating), but do we know that turbolaser bolts are massless, or pure energy? They're obviously not lasers, name not withstanding, as has been gone over a billion times or so.
They have recoil, so mass is likely but not certain. Because Lasers do have recoil, it's very slight compared to a conventional gun of similar raw energy output but it exists. That's why a laser driven solar sail can work. The laser recoil is the opposite force to the laser driving energy the sail absorbs.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956

User avatar
KraytKing
Padawan Learner
Posts: 275
Joined: 2016-04-11 06:39pm
Location: Wayland

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by KraytKing » 2017-12-21 11:25am

Another little tidbit from the movie: at one point, we see Rey fire her pistol into a brick wall visibly multiple layers thick, leaving a hole at least a foot in diameter. More interestingly, much of the debris is shattered, but not vaporized. What does this mean for the debate?
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

--Mace

User avatar
Captain Seafort
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1597
Joined: 2008-10-10 11:52am
Location: Blighty

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Captain Seafort » 2017-12-22 08:50am

KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-21 11:25am
Another little tidbit from the movie: at one point, we see Rey fire her pistol into a brick wall visibly multiple layers thick, leaving a hole at least a foot in diameter. More interestingly, much of the debris is shattered, but not vaporized. What does this mean for the debate?
Probably not much - she hit one brick, it vaporised, the pressure wave blew a hole through the wall. We don't know how much of the bolt kept going after passing through the hole, or what sort of weapon she she had (beyond "a pistol", which could be anything from a snub .22-equivalent to a Webley Mk VI-equivalent).
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe - Albert Einstein

User avatar
Imperial528
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1750
Joined: 2010-05-03 06:19pm
Location: New England

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Imperial528 » 2017-12-24 04:45pm

Having just seen the movie, here are my thoughts:
Spoiler
The Supremacy bombards the resistance cruiser throughout much of the film. Given that it is perfectly able to hit the shields, and able to single-shot the resistance transports further away than the cruiser, I expect it is not a strict range limitation of the guns at play. Rather, if turbolasers experience a decrease in energy density over distance (in much the way a laser beam or particle beam diffracts or diverges, respectively) then at that range their guns may not be able to bring down the cruiser's shielding. This helps explain why the cruiser doesn't throw more power into the engines to run away as it did when it first opened up the distance: that would take too much power from the shields and risks giving the Supremacy the chance to overwhelm their shields.

I would conjecture that, supposing turbolasers are self contained plasma bursts, that over time the magnetic effect binding the bolt together fades in strength and the plasma starts spreading out.

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12295
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2017-12-27 11:24am

Captain Seafort wrote:
2017-12-22 08:50am
KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-21 11:25am
Another little tidbit from the movie: at one point, we see Rey fire her pistol into a brick wall visibly multiple layers thick, leaving a hole at least a foot in diameter. More interestingly, much of the debris is shattered, but not vaporized. What does this mean for the debate?
Probably not much - she hit one brick, it vaporised, the pressure wave blew a hole through the wall. We don't know how much of the bolt kept going after passing through the hole, or what sort of weapon she she had (beyond "a pistol", which could be anything from a snub .22-equivalent to a Webley Mk VI-equivalent).
It was stone, not brick. And the bolt had enough force afterwards to leave a smoking impact on a stone well past the building, say 30ft perhaps.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
CetaMan
Youngling
Posts: 113
Joined: 2015-08-28 02:44am
Location: Alberta, Canada (Eh?)

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by CetaMan » 2017-12-31 04:51pm

Better question, who actually cares about versus stuff anymore...

But to actually go on the topic, are we sure supremacy is firing turbos? they seem pretty similar to the autocannons fired by the dreadnaught. Perhaps its large mass drivers? Weird and with little support, but its yet another possibility for the worst space battles in SW movie history...

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-10 08:04pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2017-12-15 04:17pm
In The Last Jedi, the Resistance makes a fighting retreat from the First Order, with the ships in visual range of each other. The distance between the First Order ships affects the turbolasers' damage done to the Resistance ships' shields. What does this tell us about both Star Wars shields and turbolasers in normal space combat? What does this change, if anything, in regards to combating Trek ships?

Discuss.
Whatever the SSD Compensator* was lobbing at the Rebel fleet, it wasn't standard tubolaser bolts, since they had a strange arcing trajectory, began to arc as soon as they left Snoke's ship (from what I can recall), and thus behaved in a manner unlike any turbolaser bolts seen before, ever.

Though, the fact that the other ships weren't firing turbolasers at the fleet is still suggestive about turbolasers' maximum effective range.


*I don't know its canon name, but that's my fan name for Snoke's ship. :wink:
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Imperial528
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1750
Joined: 2010-05-03 06:19pm
Location: New England

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Imperial528 » 2018-01-10 08:29pm

The name of Snoke's ship is Supremacy, it's a *cringe* Mega-class star dreadnought.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-10 08:34pm

Truth be told, I like Compensator class better.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15253
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Batman » 2018-01-10 09:01pm

I could've lived with that thing never getting a name. It did essentially nothing and was destroyed in the movie it was introduced in. Executor at least got to crash into DS2.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-10 09:09pm

I actually don't mind it as a starship design, even if it is a bit overblown.

And honestly, Executor's death was pathetic. Though not more pathetic than that dreadnought losing all its dorsal point-defense guns to a single fighter in TLJ.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2179
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-01-23 01:20pm

One of several pathetic things in TLJ, from all but one of the bombers dying before they could release their payloads, to the drama of the last one barely opening its bomb bay doors, to the first order not having enough of a clue to job some missiles at the retreating rebel ships.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-24 11:48pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-01-23 01:20pm
One of several pathetic things in TLJ, from all but one of the bombers dying before they could release their payloads,
That seems a very realistic outcome of an assault on a dreadnought by a horribly outnumbered and outgunned force. Which was kind of the point of the scene. Poe was being stupid, not the film.
to the drama of the last one barely opening its bomb bay doors,
Damaged ships malfunction.
to the first order not having enough of a clue to job some missiles at the retreating rebel ships.
Missiles are almost never used in Star Wars films, save at close range by fighters. Strange, maybe, but hardly something that can be held against TLJ specifically.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22023
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2018-01-25 01:58am

Imperial528 wrote:
2017-12-24 04:45pm
Having just seen the movie, here are my thoughts:
Spoiler
The Supremacy bombards the resistance cruiser throughout much of the film. Given that it is perfectly able to hit the shields, and able to single-shot the resistance transports further away than the cruiser, I expect it is not a strict range limitation of the guns at play. Rather, if turbolasers experience a decrease in energy density over distance (in much the way a laser beam or particle beam diffracts or diverges, respectively) then at that range their guns may not be able to bring down the cruiser's shielding. This helps explain why the cruiser doesn't throw more power into the engines to run away as it did when it first opened up the distance: that would take too much power from the shields and risks giving the Supremacy the chance to overwhelm their shields.

I would conjecture that, supposing turbolasers are self contained plasma bursts, that over time the magnetic effect binding the bolt together fades in strength and the plasma starts spreading out.
Here's my take on it.
Spoiler
We've known for a while that Star Wars shields have a deflector component. There is some lateral deflection that becomes larger with range, and then a component that actually absorbs any impacts. So it need not be a limitation on range or energy density, but the range at which the deflector component of shields becomes unable to sufficiently deflect a shot to cause a miss.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est

User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2179
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-01-25 01:54pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-24 11:48pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-01-23 01:20pm
One of several pathetic things in TLJ, from all but one of the bombers dying before they could release their payloads,
That seems a very realistic outcome of an assault on a dreadnought by a horribly outnumbered and outgunned force. Which was kind of the point of the scene. Poe was being stupid, not the film.
to the drama of the last one barely opening its bomb bay doors,
Damaged ships malfunction.
to the first order not having enough of a clue to job some missiles at the retreating rebel ships.
Missiles are almost never used in Star Wars films, save at close range by fighters. Strange, maybe, but hardly something that can be held against TLJ specifically.
It boiled down to Paige struggling to reach a bloody button, that's the problem. And then there's BB-8's efforts to fix Poe's starfighter's weapons, using its dome as a makeshift plug.

The film did get one thing right though- because the First Order can track the rebel ships through hyperspace they had no need to bring along an Interdictor.

Is TLJ the first film to mention starship fuel though? I'm struggling to recall any instances of it.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-25 02:11pm

I think its the first mention in a film, yeah, unless you count Starkiller Base draining a Star for fuel in TFA. Though the EU mentioned starship fuel, of course, and one presumes they do have it, and can eventually run out of it.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10451
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-25 02:19pm

We'd also seen Starfighters tanking up with something in ANH but first time for Cap ships.

I can only assume the Resistance ships were short stocked to start with since the FO ships seeming had no constraints on them.
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Maximum range of turbolasers (Last Jedi spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-25 02:27pm

They evacuated in a hurry. Maybe they left their fuel reserves on the ground?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

Post Reply