Ferengi vs Hutts

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Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Q99 » 2017-08-28 02:44pm

Who do you think are the better merchants? Both are associated with green and making money and sometimes crime, and both sometimes show surprisingly badass military capability.


So, how do we think they match up in various respects? Would the Ferengi do well in Star Wars? Etc..

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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-08-28 02:47pm

Well, this should probably be in Star Trek vs. Star Wars, not Pure Star Trek, but aside from that...

The Hutts (or at least the ones the canon seems to focus on) tend to be basically space gangsters. The Ferengi seem to have a more diversified approach, with criminals and honest businessmen. I think they'll be more flexible, but less capable in the military and espionage arenas (even leaving aside any canonical tech. disparity).
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Q99 » 2017-08-29 05:59pm

Oops, I thought I was in the other one. My bad!
I think they'll be more flexible, but less capable in the military and espionage arenas
Though the Ferengi mercs we do see are fairly formidable.

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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2017-08-30 08:11am

Q99 wrote:
2017-08-28 02:44pm
Who do you think are the better merchants? Both are associated with green and making money and sometimes crime, and both sometimes show surprisingly badass military capability.


So, how do we think they match up in various respects? Would the Ferengi do well in Star Wars? Etc..
The Ferengi would do fine in Star Wars.

I think they're the better traders. Ferengi are about profit. Hutts seem to be about power. There's a subtle distinction, but the Ferengi are more peaceful, they don't go out of their way to piss people off (other than a couple who had it in for Picard). They are (mostly) law abiding and they abhor slavery. Morally they're better than the Hutts. Militarily they're better. Maybe not in ships, but in tactics and how they use them. And a Ferengi who is pissed off will sue you. A Hutt will try to kill you.

Ferengi also don't seem to do much around drugs / prostitution. They look down on women, sure, but outright sexual slavery?

And as such I think they'd do better in Star Wars than the Hutts. They seem to know how to play "the game" better. The Hutts are outlaws in Star Wars. I'm not sure the Ferengi would be.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-08-30 01:51pm

Agreed reg. the advantages of the Ferengi (at least on the all-too infrequent occasions when they're not being written as cartoon caricatures). And discounting the obvious advantages in FTL speed and power generation possessed by the Star Wars 'verse in general.

Except for one thing- they may not practice slavery exactly, but they do seem to regard women as sexual objects first and foremost, what with being required to not work, stay home, and be naked at all times. Aside from the reversal of clothes vs. no clothes, that's Saudi Arabia shit. I would expect a society where such practices are not only customary but legally obligatory to have what amounts to legalized rape, at least legalized spousal rape (even if that's something they'd be reluctant to acknowledge on a PG series like Trek).
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2017-09-13 08:11pm

Yeah that is icky. But at least to the Ferengi, they seem to approach it differently. When he's talking to Sisko in The Jem'Hadar, he says

QUARK: The way I see it, humans used to be a lot like Ferengi. Greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget.

SISKO: Quark, we don't have time for this.

QUARK: But you're overlooking something. Humans used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi. Slavery, concentration camps, interstellar wars. We have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We're nothing like you. We're better. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a lock to pick.



Now politics aside, he kinda has a point. The Ferengi didn't test nuclear weapons in their atmosphere because they never tried to kill each other in big wars. They're not expansionist. They... well to them they see some sort of distinction between "slavery" and "coercing sex out of workers who don't have much choice".

I'm sure the Federation doesn't see it their way (as neither do we in 2017) but ... like Jabba did? And feeding them, in chains, to monsters? Nah, that's not Ferengi.

But I mean, we're talking about which asshole is slightly not as stinky as the other here.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Gandalf » 2017-09-13 08:55pm

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
2017-09-13 08:11pm
Yeah that is icky. But at least to the Ferengi, they seem to approach it differently. When he's talking to Sisko in The Jem'Hadar, he says

QUARK: The way I see it, humans used to be a lot like Ferengi. Greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget.

SISKO: Quark, we don't have time for this.

QUARK: But you're overlooking something. Humans used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi. Slavery, concentration camps, interstellar wars. We have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We're nothing like you. We're better. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a lock to pick.
One of the ideas that I've sort of tinkered with was one in which the Ferengi were an inverse of humans. People argue that certain individualist tendencies in humanity make things like socialism impossible, because it will ultimately fall to human nature, like the fall of the "grand socialist experiment" that was the USSR. I looked at the Ferengi being the inverse, where their native tendencies were far more collectivist in nature, causing the failure of the "grand capitalist experiment" that was the Ferengi Alliance.

It doesn't explain some of their other, uglier tendencies, but it's a fun way to frame the culture.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Swindle1984 » 2017-09-13 09:02pm

Gandalf wrote:
2017-09-13 08:55pm
Prometheus Unbound wrote:
2017-09-13 08:11pm
Yeah that is icky. But at least to the Ferengi, they seem to approach it differently. When he's talking to Sisko in The Jem'Hadar, he says

QUARK: The way I see it, humans used to be a lot like Ferengi. Greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget.

SISKO: Quark, we don't have time for this.

QUARK: But you're overlooking something. Humans used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi. Slavery, concentration camps, interstellar wars. We have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We're nothing like you. We're better. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a lock to pick.
One of the ideas that I've sort of tinkered with was one in which the Ferengi were an inverse of humans. People argue that certain individualist tendencies in humanity make things like socialism impossible, because it will ultimately fall to human nature, like the fall of the "grand socialist experiment" that was the USSR. I looked at the Ferengi being the inverse, where their native tendencies were far more collectivist in nature, causing the failure of the "grand capitalist experiment" that was the Ferengi Alliance.

It doesn't explain some of their other, uglier tendencies, but it's a fun way to frame the culture.

I'm confused as to why you think the Ferengi are collectivist. Sure, their culture is very conformist (everyone dresses the same, acts the same, etc. But then again, Trek does that to EVERY species, including the Federation.), but they absolutely worship the individual. Every Ferengi is looking out for number one, everything is about personal profit. If they were collectivist, everything would be about the group, not the individual. Hell, if the Ferengi had an equivalent to Moses, it would be Ayn Rand.

And the Ferengi Alliance seems to be doing just fine, with none of the gross instability and constant threat of secession/rebellion the USSR had.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Gandalf » 2017-09-13 09:53pm

Swindle1984 wrote:
2017-09-13 09:02pm
I'm confused as to why you think the Ferengi are collectivist. Sure, their culture is very conformist (everyone dresses the same, acts the same, etc. But then again, Trek does that to EVERY species, including the Federation.), but they absolutely worship the individual. Every Ferengi is looking out for number one, everything is about personal profit. If they were collectivist, everything would be about the group, not the individual. Hell, if the Ferengi had an equivalent to Moses, it would be Ayn Rand.

And the Ferengi Alliance seems to be doing just fine, with none of the gross instability and constant threat of secession/rebellion the USSR had.
The idea came from the Ferengi's religious belief's ultimately coming down to dying in profit that you can pay for a better reincarnation or afterlife. The episode Little Green Men mentions bidding on one's new life, so I took it a little further. I filled the gap with the idea that the Nagus is sort of a Pope-like figure, who is also the head of what is at times a theocratic state. It preaches free enterprise, but the FCA can beat up/blacklist people who get too far out of line, hence Liquidator Brunt and his goons. So I had the idea that the Nagus might be like the Ayatollah or something, a powerful position borne out of a revolutionary moment in their history. Children are indoctrinated to memorise the Rules of Acquisition from a young age.

But as we see throughout the show, prolonged contact with foreign cultures like the Federation has eroded the control of the FCA as its citizens can simply go elsewhere. A good example of that is the exchange Garak and Quark have about root beer and the Federation. Then it all falls apart at the end of the series, as we see in this exchange shortly Rom gets made into Grand Nagus (The Dogs of War);

"Zek instituted progressive income tax three months ago."
"You call that a reform? Taxes go against the very spirit of free enterprise. That's why they call it free."
"The government needed revenues to fund the new social programmes. Wage subsidies for the poor, retirement benefits for the aged, health care for-"
"Stop, stop, stop! I had no idea things had gotten so bad. This is all Moogie's fault. She's been polluting Zek's mind with notions of equality and compassion. Whatever happened to survival of the fittest? Whatever happened to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer? Whatever happened to pure, unadulterated greed?"
"Things change."
"And they're going to change back. The first thing I'm going to do is eliminate these so called reforms, before Ferenginar ends up looking like a Federation planet."
"Oh, I'm not sure the Congress of Economic Advisors will approve."
"I don't care who they are or what they are. As Nagus, I can do what I want."
"Not anymore. All regulations proposed by the Nagus have to be ratified by the Congress before they become law. You'll still be a powerful man. I wouldn't be sucking up to you otherwise."

They went from being apparently taxless (albeit with a lot of bribes) to that in three months. There's other content in the same episode, but the implication is a quick and non-violent restructuring of Ferengi society and government away from their fiscal religion to something more progressive. It's something I wish got explored more, so I wound up creating this whole head canon around it for a fanfic I wrote a decade ago which is now lost to time. :P
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Formless » 2017-09-14 06:12pm

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
2017-08-30 08:11am
And a Ferengi who is pissed off will sue you. A Hutt will try to kill you.
Not entirely true. The Ferengi have professionals called "Eliminators" who serve the same purpose as bounty hunters in Star Wars do for the Empire and the Hutts. They are assassins in all but name. True, most Ferengi find them to be despicable and consider it a profession full of psychos, but they somehow manage to find business, just like Ferengi pirates. Or Quark's relative that made a fortune as an arms dealer.

Its clear that Ferengi would prefer to rip you off with scams and lies, but they do know how to make a profit off of violence.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2017-09-15 04:30am

Formless wrote:
2017-09-14 06:12pm
Prometheus Unbound wrote:
2017-08-30 08:11am
And a Ferengi who is pissed off will sue you. A Hutt will try to kill you.
Not entirely true. The Ferengi have professionals called "Eliminators" who serve the same purpose as bounty hunters in Star Wars do for the Empire and the Hutts. They are assassins in all but name. True, most Ferengi find them to be despicable and consider it a profession full of psychos, but they somehow manage to find business, just like Ferengi pirates. Or Quark's relative that made a fortune as an arms dealer.

Its clear that Ferengi would prefer to rip you off with scams and lies, but they do know how to make a profit off of violence.
But they're not endorsed by the Grand Negus. That's just criminal / psychotic agents within the Ferengi Alliance. Every alliance has those. What I meant is, it's not Negus / Ferengi Alliance policy to use violence. The worst the FA will officially do is give someone that Black Mark thing, to cut off their business ties. Which to a Ferengi is a fate worse than death.

They don't care about war - after all, War is Good for Business. But Peace is Good for Business too. But they don't seem to do it themselves.

Look at the most violent Ferengi we found - Bok. He was fired for the crap he pulled off.

The Ferengi who took over the Enterprise were pirates - they also took over some Klingon ships - unless the official position of the FA is "declare war on the Klingons *and* the Federation", they were renegades.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Simon_Jester » 2017-09-15 06:40am

If we look at the old EU (the new one is still so new it isn't really in a 'mature' state)...

The Hutts are the way they are because they are in effect the vestigial remnant of an older alien empire that contested with Star Wars humans for dominance of the Milky Way. That may explain why they seem to be in it for the power, more so than the money.

If there were some kind of direct conflict, I'd bet on the Hutts to win, not the Ferengi. In long-term economic conflict, the Ferengi will do relatively less bad, because I think the point that they're more enthusiastic about actual commerce... But I think the Hutts can adjust to that and do about as well as they ever did.

Sure, the Ferengi are better merchants, but I doubt they're better merchants than everyone in Star Wars. By which I don't mean "the average Ferengi is no more skillful than the average non-Ferengi." I mean "the total population of Ferengi are no better than the top 1% of everyone else's space merchants." Star Wars isn't short of people who know how to trade, and even if Ferengi are naturally better at it than most people, that doesn't make them better at it than everyone. The Hutts have already acclimated to an economic climate like that, so I expect they could cope with the arrival of the Ferengi without their power structure falling apart.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Q99 » 2017-09-15 06:50am

The Ferengi Alliance does use the very formidable D'Kora class marauder ship outside of pirates- Goss's ship negotiated over rights to the Barzan wormhole, and another, the Krayton, at a trade conference. So they've got a fleet.

Bok was fired, but for operating on his own initiative and engaging in risky plans out of revenge, rather than being too violent.

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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2017-09-15 09:33am

Q99 wrote:
2017-09-15 06:50am
The Ferengi Alliance does use the very formidable D'Kora class marauder ship outside of pirates- Goss's ship negotiated over rights to the Barzan wormhole, and another, the Krayton, at a trade conference. So they've got a fleet.

Bok was fired, but for operating on his own initiative and engaging in risky plans out of revenge, rather than being too violent.
I think he was officially fired for doing stuff not netting a a profit :D

Because there is no profit to be had, in the long term, through violence.

D'Koras can match a Galaxy, and they do have a fleet. Of course they do :D So did the East India Company.

I'm not saying they're good guys. They're not. They're ultra/hyper capitalists who put profit before almost anything else. But they do seem less... twat-like than the Hutts. If you piss off a Ferengi, he'll fuck you over monetarily. If you... I dunno, don't dance sexy enough, a Hutt will feed you to a monster heh.

They're very similar, but I'd rather meet a Ferengi than a Hutt.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Gandalf » 2017-09-15 01:19pm

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
2017-09-15 04:30am
But they're not endorsed by the Grand Negus. That's just criminal / psychotic agents within the Ferengi Alliance. Every alliance has those. What I meant is, it's not Negus / Ferengi Alliance policy to use violence. The worst the FA will officially do is give someone that Black Mark thing, to cut off their business ties. Which to a Ferengi is a fate worse than death.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Q99 » 2017-09-15 04:22pm

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
2017-09-15 09:33am

I think he was officially fired for doing stuff not netting a a profit :D

Because there is no profit to be had, in the long term, through violence.
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Crew: "No ransom? F that, we're out, we're not going into the red for you."

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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-09-15 05:20pm

It should be noted that there's things that Ferengi wouldn't do even for profit (or at least the prospect of getting profit must be really high), they're not unfamiliar with the concept of "not worth the risk" even if where that limit is depends on the ferengi in question.

Generally speaking while D'koras seem to be a match 1 on 1 with the Galaxy (and by extension Vor'chas and D'Derixes as those are the KDF and IRSN equilevants for the GCS) the Ferengi Alliance doesn't seem to be a match to most powers that in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant (or at least they don't want to take the risk of testing that) so while called a "marauder" the D'Koras we've seen have done little marauding and seem more like armed merchant ships then pirate raiders.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Q99 » 2017-09-15 06:00pm

I imagine the primary purpose of the D'Kora is to frighten anyone away from messing with Ferengi trade ships - I bet they get paid bounties for pouncing on anyone who does and/or most traders pay long term protection fees -and the occasional mercenary/profit seeking job. But primarily, "Don't mess with our traders, we have Grade-A warships."

I do wish DS9 had had the FKR Alliance hire some to assist in the war ^^ Especially when the energy drain weapon hit, that'd be cool.

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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Simon_Jester » 2017-09-15 09:01pm

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
2017-09-15 09:33am
Q99 wrote:
2017-09-15 06:50am
The Ferengi Alliance does use the very formidable D'Kora class marauder ship outside of pirates- Goss's ship negotiated over rights to the Barzan wormhole, and another, the Krayton, at a trade conference. So they've got a fleet.

Bok was fired, but for operating on his own initiative and engaging in risky plans out of revenge, rather than being too violent.
I think he was officially fired for doing stuff not netting a a profit :D

Because there is no profit to be had, in the long term, through violence.

D'Koras can match a Galaxy, and they do have a fleet. Of course they do :D So did the East India Company.

I'm not saying they're good guys. They're not. They're ultra/hyper capitalists who put profit before almost anything else. But they do seem less... twat-like than the Hutts. If you piss off a Ferengi, he'll fuck you over monetarily. If you... I dunno, don't dance sexy enough, a Hutt will feed you to a monster heh.

They're very similar, but I'd rather meet a Ferengi than a Hutt.
To be fair, Jabba the Hutt may well be one of the worst Hutts ever in terms of sheer capricious malice.

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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Batman » 2017-09-15 09:23pm

Jabba wasn't actually all that much (or at all) worse then real world criminals.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-09-15 09:52pm

Q99 wrote:
2017-09-15 06:00pm
I imagine the primary purpose of the D'Kora is to frighten anyone away from messing with Ferengi trade ships - I bet they get paid bounties for pouncing on anyone who does and/or most traders pay long term protection fees -and the occasional mercenary/profit seeking job. But primarily, "Don't mess with our traders, we have Grade-A warships."

I do wish DS9 had had the FKR Alliance hire some to assist in the war ^^ Especially when the energy drain weapon hit, that'd be cool.
So essentially, a very-well paid privateer fleet? Or private military contractors, to use the more modern terminology?
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by NecronLord » 2017-09-24 09:37am

Moved.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Captain Seafort » 2017-09-24 11:15am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-09-15 09:52pm
So essentially, a very-well paid privateer fleet? Or private military contractors, to use the more modern terminology?
I think Prometheus has the right analogy - they're Indiamen. Nothing to be sneezed at, given that there were a few cases of Indiamen driving off proper warships, including ships of the line.
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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Q99 » 2017-09-24 03:46pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-09-15 09:52pm
So essentially, a very-well paid privateer fleet? Or private military contractors, to use the more modern terminology?
Exactly. The Federation has deep pockets, Ferengi love money. We could see them debate hedging whether to risk the Dominion victory and them wiping out the Ferengi... but then deciding the current setup is better for business.

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Re: Ferengi vs Hutts

Post by Gandalf » 2017-09-24 08:39pm

It would certainly be interesting to similarly see Ferengi trading with the Dominion during season seven, when the war was taking its toll on the Dominion too.
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