Resource War

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texanmarauder
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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 01:27am

seanrobertson wrote:
2017-12-12 06:05pm

Mind you, I don't really understand how that Verteron Array pertains to the discussion at hand, at least apart from tech that existed before the Federation did.
I was just pointing out that the st galaxy had tech like that when it comes to the sol system. somebody mentioned it earlier in the thread.

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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 01:34am

honestly I just don't see the point of having a discussion using calcs from the old EU. the high end numbers are unrealistic and unsupportable and the low end are just as bad. for every feat supporting one set of numbers, there is another that debunks it. I think ill just leave yall to it. enjoy.

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Re: Resource War

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-12-13 12:36pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 01:34am
honestly I just don't see the point of having a discussion using calcs from the old EU. the high end numbers are unrealistic and unsupportable and the low end are just as bad. for every feat supporting one set of numbers, there is another that debunks it. I think ill just leave yall to it. enjoy.
Base Delta Zero's, the basis for the old calcs, are canon.
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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 12:41pm

Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 12:36pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 01:34am
honestly I just don't see the point of having a discussion using calcs from the old EU. the high end numbers are unrealistic and unsupportable and the low end are just as bad. for every feat supporting one set of numbers, there is another that debunks it. I think ill just leave yall to it. enjoy.
Base Delta Zero's, the basis for the old calcs, are canon.
no its not. Disney mentioned it in SWR as population extermination, which is not the same as the old EU NON CANON definition. disneys policy is if a non canon event or person is mentioned, only what is seen in the new canon is canon. not its EU history. you are just SOL on that one. population extermination can be done with far far less effort than a fleet of ISDs bombing a planet for god knows how long.

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Re: Resource War

Post by Khaat » 2017-12-13 01:23pm

Star Wars Rebels: Sabine My Rebel Sketchbook wrote:Base Delta Zero was the code for an Imperial military initiative used to cause widespread devastation on a planet. Although the Empire claimed that Base Delta Zero was part of planetary liberations, in actuality, the tactic was used to completely exterminate a planet's population.
I think you mean new canon definition, in a strikingly familiar format.
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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 01:44pm

Khaat wrote:
2017-12-13 01:23pm
Star Wars Rebels: Sabine My Rebel Sketchbook wrote:Base Delta Zero was the code for an Imperial military initiative used to cause widespread devastation on a planet. Although the Empire claimed that Base Delta Zero was part of planetary liberations, in actuality, the tactic was used to completely exterminate a planet's population.
I think you mean new canon definition, in a strikingly familiar format.
as opposed to the old EU non canon definition.....
Star Wars Imperial Sourcebook wrote: Defined as "the systematic complete destruction of all 'assets' of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids."
that is a huge difference there. wiping out the population from orbit, ergo causing widespread devastation, is not the same as stripping the first few inches of topsoil off the surface of a planet. its not even close. IIRC it required at least 3 cap ships, a number of smaller ships, and their entire fighter/bomber compliments a day to accomplish.

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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 01:58pm

plus, we have only seen an orbital bombardment once on screen, and that was SWR "Zero Hour". and the damage it did compared to the number of shots that missed the shield entirely was negligible.

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Re: Resource War

Post by Khaat » 2017-12-13 02:13pm

Zero Hour, where the Imperials were trying to knock out the shield and take prisoners? Or was there another one?
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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 02:29pm

Khaat wrote:
2017-12-13 02:13pm
Zero Hour, where the Imperials were trying to knock out the shield and take prisoners? Or was there another one?
that's it. there is no reason to think they weren't firing at full power. any conclusion stating otherwise would be pure speculation as there is nothing to prove variable yield turbolasers.

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Re: Resource War

Post by Khaat » 2017-12-13 02:36pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 02:29pm
there is no reason to think they weren't firing at full power. any conclusion stating otherwise would be pure speculation as there is nothing to prove variable yield turbolasers.
How about "we've seen turbolaser output far higher, so what's your explanation?"
Simplest solution: the OT and PT were LIES! [/sarcasm]
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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 02:41pm

Khaat wrote:
2017-12-13 02:36pm
How about "we've seen turbolaser output far higher, so what's your explanation?"
Simplest solution: the OT and PT were LIES! [/sarcasm]
details?

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Re: Resource War

Post by Khaat » 2017-12-13 03:20pm

Well, Kanan is knocked off his space-bike by a (rough-estimates) grenade-sized (5m) explosion, in atmosphere, from orbit.

In the opening of A New Hope, the Tantive IV is rocked by a single shot from the pursuing Star Destroyer in a "close-up" shot, striking the 125-ish meter ship, specifically to knock out their shields (visual evidence, ~30m diameter flash, in space) and force them to shut down their reactor (audible audio and dialog on board) without destroying them. The Tantive IV wasn't peppered with grenade-sized explosions.

Precision targeting and a scaled offense (variable yield) is part of Imperial gunnery! Whodathunkit?! No, wait, that's a conclusion drawn from canon evidence, or as you like to say "unfounded speculation!"

So you going to last 3 months this time, before taking your ball and running home again?
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Re: Resource War

Post by seanrobertson » 2017-12-13 03:52pm

...to say nothing, of course, of the Empire asteroid vaping scene, in which we see firepower millions of times in excess of "Zero Hour" from guns which are absolutely tiny compared to the heaviest guns on a Star Destroyer.

Maybe it's discordant with a strict interpretation of the current canon policy, but I don't treat cartoon visuals with the same weight I do live-action footage. The former is a recreation of actual events; the latter, real footage of things as they actually happened, just like a proper documentary. I liken the distinction between a cartoon I saw about the Hiroshima nuke vs. actual pictures and videography... while the anime recaptured the who, where, how and why, the "what" was too incongruous with reality to analyze the bomb's yield (e.g., the way the civvies in the anime were lit afire, then stumbled about like zombies, only to violently explode into clouds of ash many seconds later).
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Re: Resource War

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-12-13 03:56pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 12:41pm
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 12:36pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 01:34am
honestly I just don't see the point of having a discussion using calcs from the old EU. the high end numbers are unrealistic and unsupportable and the low end are just as bad. for every feat supporting one set of numbers, there is another that debunks it. I think ill just leave yall to it. enjoy.
Base Delta Zero's, the basis for the old calcs, are canon.
no its not. Disney mentioned it in SWR as population extermination, which is not the same as the old EU NON CANON definition. disneys policy is if a non canon event or person is mentioned, only what is seen in the new canon is canon. not its EU history. you are just SOL on that one. population extermination can be done with far far less effort than a fleet of ISDs bombing a planet for god knows how long.
The TFA ICS mentions that the Resurgent can reduce the surface of worlds into slag, in other words an old BDZ. Since BDZ’s are mentioned and an old school BDZ is mentioned, assuming they are the same is only sensible, especially given that nothing mentioned shows any reason for them to conflict.
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Re: Resource War

Post by Formless » 2017-12-13 04:25pm

To add to these things, while I'm not much of a fan of The Game Theorists, Mat Pat has a video about Battlefront II(2017) analyzing Operation Cinder, and his conclusion is that a Climate Disruption Array (basically two dozen or so weaponized weather satellites) as shown in the game and comics can actually turn a planet's atmosphere into a boiling mass of plasma. So another method of BDZ that is arguably less energy intensive, but perhaps more efficient as well once you build the satellites, and its nothing to laugh at energy-wise either. Destroying a planet's crust was never the most efficient way of rendering a planet uninhabitable.
Last edited by Formless on 2017-12-13 04:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 04:27pm

Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 03:56pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 12:41pm
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 12:36pm

Base Delta Zero's, the basis for the old calcs, are canon.
no its not. Disney mentioned it in SWR as population extermination, which is not the same as the old EU NON CANON definition. disneys policy is if a non canon event or person is mentioned, only what is seen in the new canon is canon. not its EU history. you are just SOL on that one. population extermination can be done with far far less effort than a fleet of ISDs bombing a planet for god knows how long.
The TFA ICS mentions that the Resurgent can reduce the surface of worlds into slag, in other words an old BDZ. Since BDZ’s are mentioned and an old school BDZ is mentioned, assuming they are the same is only sensible, especially given that nothing mentioned shows any reason for them to conflict.
and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.

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Re: Resource War

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-12-13 04:33pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 04:27pm
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 03:56pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 12:41pm


no its not. Disney mentioned it in SWR as population extermination, which is not the same as the old EU NON CANON definition. disneys policy is if a non canon event or person is mentioned, only what is seen in the new canon is canon. not its EU history. you are just SOL on that one. population extermination can be done with far far less effort than a fleet of ISDs bombing a planet for god knows how long.
The TFA ICS mentions that the Resurgent can reduce the surface of worlds into slag, in other words an old BDZ. Since BDZ’s are mentioned and an old school BDZ is mentioned, assuming they are the same is only sensible, especially given that nothing mentioned shows any reason for them to conflict.
and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.
a. Presumably a similar amount of time as previously.
b. The millenium falcon just can't slag a planet's surface. That's not how heat dispersion works.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 04:43pm

Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 04:33pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 04:27pm
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 03:56pm


The TFA ICS mentions that the Resurgent can reduce the surface of worlds into slag, in other words an old BDZ. Since BDZ’s are mentioned and an old school BDZ is mentioned, assuming they are the same is only sensible, especially given that nothing mentioned shows any reason for them to conflict.
and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.
a. Presumably a similar amount of time as previously.
b. The millenium falcon just can't slag a planet's surface. That's not how heat dispersion works.
key word "presumably". in other words, you have no idea. and just FYI, kyber crystals, the objects that increases their firepower, are in very short supply. meaning that only a few ships even have them. the rest are stuck with conventional turbolasers.

and yes, the falcon could. it would just take a long longer, and a small bit at a time.

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Re: Resource War

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-12-13 04:48pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 04:43pm
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 04:33pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 04:27pm

and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.
a. Presumably a similar amount of time as previously.
b. The millenium falcon just can't slag a planet's surface. That's not how heat dispersion works.
key word "presumably". in other words, you have no idea. and just FYI, kyber crystals, the objects that increases their firepower, are in very short supply. meaning that only a few ships even have them. the rest are stuck with conventional turbolasers.

and yes, the falcon could. it would just take a long longer, and a small bit at a time.
The key words are order of magnitude. The site consensus we have here is that ISD firepower is in the neighborhood of 2 petatons. There is, as you have mentioned, quite a bit of wiggle room in how that number was derived, and if you were arguing for say 500 teratons because the Resurgent has more powerful turbolasers, that'd be quite reasonable. However, you're not arguing for single order of magnitude differences. You are arguing for something in the neighborhood of 6 orders of magnitude, and the calculations, while uncertain, aren't nearly uncertain enough to make your position tenable.
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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 04:56pm

Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 04:48pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 04:43pm
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-12-13 04:33pm

a. Presumably a similar amount of time as previously.
b. The millenium falcon just can't slag a planet's surface. That's not how heat dispersion works.
key word "presumably". in other words, you have no idea. and just FYI, kyber crystals, the objects that increases their firepower, are in very short supply. meaning that only a few ships even have them. the rest are stuck with conventional turbolasers.

and yes, the falcon could. it would just take a long longer, and a small bit at a time.
The key words are order of magnitude. The site consensus we have here is that ISD firepower is in the neighborhood of 2 petatons. There is, as you have mentioned, quite a bit of wiggle room in how that number was derived, and if you were arguing for say 500 teratons because the Resurgent has more powerful turbolasers, that'd be quite reasonable. However, you're not arguing for single order of magnitude differences. You are arguing for something in the neighborhood of 6 orders of magnitude, and the calculations, while uncertain, aren't nearly uncertain enough to make your position tenable.
I assume you are talking per shot. site consensus my ass. its nowhere near 2 gigatons, or a fraction of 2 gigatons, much less petatons and has never demonstrated firepower that high. 200 gigatons is the highest number from any publication that I know of and thats only .2 teratons. now you are claiming the bullshit number of petatons? whoever told you that is a fucking liar. if they had that kind of firepower, then they wouldn't need the fucking death star. that wasn't the case. basing calculations on something that never happened seems to be a regular occurrence here. my understanding of those calculations is that saxton pretty much tweaked how a BDZ works to his liking, and derived his figures from that.

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Re: Resource War

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-12-13 05:08pm

Now you're just being deliberately dense. He said "ISD firepower," not "turbolaser firepower" meaning he was talking about the entire ship and all it's weapons combined, not per shot you moron.
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Re: Resource War

Post by Batman » 2017-12-13 05:27pm

Oh, and just for perspective-the Death Star blast was about 2.4 billion petatons, all in one go. 'if they had that kind of firepower, then they wouldn't need the fucking death star' my kevlar-clad behind
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Re: Resource War

Post by Formless » 2017-12-13 06:12pm

Also, lets go deeper into Operation: Cinder for a moment. All of this is back of the envelope and assumes we are trying to turn Earth's atmosphere into a uniform plasma over 310,000 degrees Fahrenheit or 172204.4444 degrees Celsius, as claimed in Mat Pat's video. This will be an upper limit calculation, since in reality the atmosphere will probably just boil off before it turns into a uniform purple glowing plasma. I mean literally leave orbit, as will soon become apparent from the numbers:

Going by this Quora response, the basic calorimetric equation is Q = m*Cp*deltaT, where the mass of the Earth's atmosphere is 5.1480*10^18 kg and its Cp (that is, heat capacity) is roughly 1012 J/(Kg*K). The mean temperature of the Earth is 289.15K, and we want to raise it approximately 172188.4444 degrees. Plugging that into the equation we get:

Q= 5.1480*10^18 kg * 1012 J/(Kg*K) * 172188.4444 K

Spoilers: this is a huge number. Q= 8.9706*10^26 J

That of course is the final energy output for the whole array after several hours of constantly bombarding the planet's atmosphere with energy. Supposedly the array around Naboo had about twenty satellites. So when we divide the energy by 20 we get 4.4853*10^25 J per-weather satellite. And canonically according to the books in continuity with TFA and The Last Jedi, the Climate Disruption Array destroyed Naboo's atmosphere in just a matter of hours, rendering it inhospitable for life. Also, I don't know what the efficiency losses are here, so the actual energy levels could be higher-- or lower, since again, the Climate Disruption Array would more likely strip the atmosphere entirely from the planet's surface before it actually reaches that temperature.

Conclusion: Star Wars still has amazing energy generation technology even in the new TFA canon, and its not just limited to the Death Star. I see no reason a Star Destroyer couldn't have weapons every bit as powerful as the old canon or as powerful as this site has been saying they are since the late 90's. Indeed, the only question I have is why Operation: Cinder didn't just use conventional BDZ style bombardment, but I can mentally chalk that up to the satellites being deemed more efficient than turbolasers for planetary depopulation. Turbolasers waste a lot of energy melting the actual surface whereas the CDA laser sats heat the atmosphere until everything is dead and the infrastructure has been thoroughly scorched. Perhaps they were even tested in BDZ operations, for all we know.
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Re: Resource War

Post by KraytKing » 2017-12-13 07:31pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-12-13 04:27pm
and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.
One can assume that, since it is a military vessel in a primarily hostile galaxy, the designers do not want it spending weeks blasting a planet, especially given the speed of Star Wars travel. If it did take weeks to slag a world, then it would not be mentioned. It would be useless. The Falcon is never mentioned to be able to slag worlds because it effectively can't, because someone would come fuck it up before it could finish. The same holds true for the Star Destroyer mentioned.
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Re: Resource War

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-12-13 07:49pm

I'm curiuos where you got the whole "turn the atmosphere into plasma" thing? those arrays cause massive storms. not turn the atmo into plasma. and naboo survived.

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