Spacedocks take on the versus debate

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-07-11 12:26pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2017-07-11 12:10pm
The more reasonable supposition as to why Red Leader missed (narrowly) is (apart from Rule of Drama and the plot) is he got the timing very slightly wrong. The targeting computer wasn't actually firing the torpedos after all, simply telling the pilots when to fire. A split second delay is enough to miss.
And if it was a preprogramed manoeuvre they would have hit in the same spot as each other, resulting in one scorch mark. Just like Luke's did to go through the hole.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-07-11 12:33pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-10 05:01pm
Lord Revan wrote:
2017-07-10 02:26pm
2 very important facts we need to remember when discussing the final battle of ANH.

First as far as we know no-one in the rebellion knew that Luke had any talents in the Force and thus as far as anyone planning the attack knew Luke was talented pilot who just happened to be related to Clone Wars era Jedi.

As such and this is the second fact, enough of the rebel military command must have considered that there was enough of a chance for the attack to succeed without a presense of Force user (since they couldn't rely on one just appearing out of nowhere), they're desperate sure but not retarded and if there was no realistic chance for the attack to succeed without a Force user present, launching the attack would have been a waste of resources the rebels could afford to do.
while they clearly knew the force existed, I was not suggesting that they knew anything about luke being a force user. luke just happened to be part of the attack squadron. but its clear that this particular attack only succeeded due to luke being able to use the force. call it a stroke of luck for the rebellion.
You're missing my point (or intentionally ignoring it) my point wasn't that "rebels didn't know Luke couldn't use the Force", but rather my point was that "as far as they knew there was no-one avaible who could use the Force"
as for your second fact, did they really have a choice? it was either go down fighting with a slim to none chance to win, or just go down. as I pointed out to EF, they only had 30 minutes from the time that the DS entered orbit. and from all appearances, it seems that they had either not enough, or no ships present. or they were still being repaired from the battle of scarif. to be fair though, leia did think that they were being tracked, which they were.
Missing my point again. My point was that if rebel hardware wasn't able to get torp into the vent and only Force based tk was able to do that then the rebel plan wasn't a battle plan but a complex and ritualistic suicide pact, as "a powerful Force user appears out of nowhere on our side" has so low chance of actually happening as to not exist in practical terms. Therefore there must be a realistic if very low chance that the rebel hardware was capable of making the shot, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what you've been arguing.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-11 03:33pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2017-07-11 12:10pm
The more reasonable supposition as to why Red Leader missed (narrowly) is (apart from Rule of Drama and the plot) is he got the timing very slightly wrong. The targeting computer wasn't actually firing the torpedos after all, simply telling the pilots when to fire. A split second delay is enough to miss.
Image that doesn't look like they narrowly missed. that looks like his shot missed by over two meters to the left. if the computer only tells them when to fire the torpedoes, that are preprogrammed to suddenly do an almost impossible turn after a certain distance, when they are flying straight down a shaft, then it should have hit even with the shaft on a vertical axis. aka it should have hit above or below the shaft, not far left of it. after all, red leader had two fighters covering him from behind with no incoming fire from the front. so he had nothing to dodge at that point.

I still don't get why you think its more reasonable to invent "preprogrammed" torpedoes, when nothing in canon even hints at this being the case, than force powers that we know exists in universe. and as I said before, we have seen much more unrealistic feats from the other movies. its not a great stretch to think that the farmboy space wizard pushed the torpedoes into the shaft. after all, obi-wan did tell luke that the force not only controls your actions, but "it also obeys your commands". on the face of everything, it seems luke pushes the torpedoes in. I have seen nothing to contradict this. and no, I'm not ignoring anything you have said.

also, it is an exhaust port. a station that big must have a lot of exhaust. maybe the exhaust threw off the torpedoes.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-11 04:00pm

Lord Revan wrote: You're missing my point (or intentionally ignoring it) my point wasn't that "rebels didn't know Luke couldn't use the Force", but rather my point was that "as far as they knew there was no-one avaible who could use the Force"
which still means that the rebels didn't know that luke could use the force and is exactly what I just said. there is no difference there. and no, I'm not ignoring anything, intentionally or not. I never said they planned the attack around a force user. I just said it was a stroke of luck for the rebellion that they did have one.

Missing my point again. My point was that if rebel hardware wasn't able to get torp into the vent and only Force based tk was able to do that then the rebel plan wasn't a battle plan but a complex and ritualistic suicide pact, as "a powerful Force user appears out of nowhere on our side" has so low chance of actually happening as to not exist in practical terms. Therefore there must be a realistic if very low chance that the rebel hardware was capable of making the shot, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what you've been arguing.
actually, I think you missed the point I was making. or intentionally ignored it. I never said the shot was impossible. just damn near impossible. lets break this down so you can understand what I was saying. DS shows up. at that point, the rebels have no way to flee or enough time(30 minutes or less) to flee except for the pilots of those fighters and however many people han can shove into the falcon. that pretty much makes it do or die for the rebels. in the words of mitch Cameron of Stargate SG-1, "we're getting our asses kicked! its time to go all in!".
either they attack the DS out of desperation using the weakness found in the plans and succeed, or they all die with yavin 4 and the rebellion is stopped right then and there. the plan was to maneuver down a trench and fire torpedoes at a 2m wide target, which is an difficult, almost impossible shot to make with said torpedoes, even for a computer. the only reason THIS PARTICULAR OPERATION succeeded was because the last one to take a shot, luke, happened to be a force user and made use of said force. if they had time and more pilots, somebody else MAY have successfully made the shot, but we will never know since the plot didn't allow for it.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-11 05:21pm

Except the plan to hit the Death Star was being planned from the moment Leia and co arrived on Yavin, possibly before, as Leia says to the Rebel commander shes meets "you must use the information in this R2 unit to help plan your attack, it's our only hope."

They were planning the attack well before the Death Star arrived at Yavin. To repeat this for emphasis, this was not a last minute Hail Mary attack. If anything, Tarkin made it easier by bringing the Death Star to Yavin and saving the fighters a hyperspace flight to the target.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-07-11 06:06pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2017-07-11 05:21pm
Except the plan to hit the Death Star was being planned from the moment Leia and co arrived on Yavin, possibly before, as Leia says to the Rebel commander shes meets "you must use the information in this R2 unit to help plan your attack, it's our only hope."

They were planning the attack well before the Death Star arrived at Yavin. To repeat this for emphasis, this was not a last minute Hail Mary attack. If anything, Tarkin made it easier by bringing the Death Star to Yavin and saving the fighters a hyperspace flight to the target.
I would assume and it's not a bad assumption to make that planning for the attack against the Death Star started the moment rebel fleet was commited to Scarrif, sure the details couldn't be worked out until the rebels actually got the plans but some princible planning could be done based on known standard imperial tactics and strategies.

Tex must have slept thru the breafing scene as it is shows a plan clearly too complex and well thought to thrown together in few minutes, like a last minute hail mary plan would be.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-11 06:17pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2017-07-11 05:21pm
Except the plan to hit the Death Star was being planned from the moment Leia and co arrived on Yavin, possibly before, as Leia says to the Rebel commander shes meets "you must use the information in this R2 unit to help plan your attack, it's our only hope."

They were planning the attack well before the Death Star arrived at Yavin. To repeat this for emphasis, this was not a last minute Hail Mary attack. If anything, Tarkin made it easier by bringing the Death Star to Yavin and saving the fighters a hyperspace flight to the target.
they didn't have nearly enough information to plan an attack on the death star until leia gave them the plans. it would have been a blind attack.

how long from the time leia arrived to the time the death star arrived? we know they were being tracked with a homing beacon. why not jump to another system and get rid of it? instead they led the imperials to yavin. and if they had so much prep time, why didn't they evacuate the base in case of failure once it was discovered? why keep all the leadership, including leia and dodonna, at the base knowing that if the attack failed they would all die? like I said, leia thought they were being tracked and she was right. yet no precautions were taken? that makes no sense. "lets take our time to plan this attack, at least until the death star gets here. we don't know that it will work since it is a difficult, to say the least, shot to make with proton torpedoes. yes, we know the death star is coming but no, we wont evacuate in case you fail. we will just all die and the rebellion will be wiped out." they sent 30 fighters against a 160km wide battle station with god knows how many TIEs and turbolasers to go up against knowing that if they failed or were unable make the shot in time that they were all screwed. if that doesn't scream hail mary then I don't know what does. the fact is, once the death star made it to yavin they didn't have a choice but to launch the attack. as it was, if han hadn't intervened, luke wouldn't have made the shot at all and if luke wasn't a force user, there is an astronomically better than even chance he would have missed too, fantasy preprogramming or not.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-11 06:37pm

Lord Revan wrote:
2017-07-11 06:06pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2017-07-11 05:21pm
Except the plan to hit the Death Star was being planned from the moment Leia and co arrived on Yavin, possibly before, as Leia says to the Rebel commander shes meets "you must use the information in this R2 unit to help plan your attack, it's our only hope."

They were planning the attack well before the Death Star arrived at Yavin. To repeat this for emphasis, this was not a last minute Hail Mary attack. If anything, Tarkin made it easier by bringing the Death Star to Yavin and saving the fighters a hyperspace flight to the target.
I would assume and it's not a bad assumption to make that planning for the attack against the Death Star started the moment rebel fleet was commited to Scarrif, sure the details couldn't be worked out until the rebels actually got the plans but some princible planning could be done based on known standard imperial tactics and strategies.

Tex must have slept thru the breafing scene as it is shows a plan clearly too complex and well thought to thrown together in few minutes, like a last minute hail mary plan would be.
you all must be drinking the same koolaid to keep imagining reasons for some of the things that happen when a solid in universe explanation already exists.
and what known strategies and tactics existed for defending a 160km wide space station that was only just finished and nobody knew anything about?

and how complex could it be? the station only has that one weakness, two if you include its defenses being designed against only cap ships. and that one weakness only has one possible way to come at it without getting completely shredded. and then its only vulnerable against one of the two weapons used by snub fighters. this was all pointed out during the briefing scene.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Formless » 2017-07-12 12:35am

texanmarauder wrote:they didn't have nearly enough information to plan an attack on the death star until leia gave them the plans. it would have been a blind attack. [snip loaded questions about the time span]
I hate to break it to you, but what we see onscreen is final. What you imagine to be true is meaningless. And questions that you can't imagine the answer to have answers in the film and the franchise at large. They had their attack planned right down to the exact flight path they wanted the pilots to take once they were in the trench. We know because the audience sees the plan laid out in front of us at the briefing. The film does not put a clock onscreen like in 24, but Lucas is no moron who expects us to need one to realize that the Rebels had hours to formulate this attack plan. Precisely because they had an attack plan. Attack plans like that cannot be pulled out of some commander's ass in five minutes. And it is precisely because of things you yourself have said. What you refuse to do is admit that this means there was enough time to do... what they actually did.

And that's just the most obvious sign that they had more time to breath than you are giving them credit for. Things like the pilots getting briefed in a briefing room and not on the flight pads, Luke changing from his civilian outfit to a Rebel flight suit, the Rebels paying off Han, and even just the actual screen time taken up by the preparations for the battle (much longer than most modern filmmakers would spend on prep time) are plenty enough indicators of time going by for us to realize that this is not a seat of the pants make-shit-up emergency situation. Indeed, these same cues are used in other Star Wars films to indicate when this is not the case, like in the next damn movie. In The Empire Strikes Back, during the attack on Hoth we see the pilots get briefed... on the flight pads. We see people scrambling to prep an evacuation, and evacuate. We see all manner of activity to indicate that there is a time constraint on everything they do. The Imperial fleet is directly above their heads, and they know it, and the Imperial army has deployed by the time they are talking about leaving. But in ANH, the Death Star has not arrived yet. They know it will arrive because Leia was counting on the Falcon being tracked. She says this outright, but her chill attitude means she is already mentally planning around the tracking device. She is Force sensitive, after all, even if she does not know it yet. A major theme of the movie is the way the Force effects destiny. That's why the Rebels repeat "may the Force be with you" right before battle.

Why make a stand at Yavin? This is explained quite explicitly in the original film, and expanded upon in Rouge One. In Rouge One the leaders of the Alliance outright state that the Rebellion is over the instant they learn about the existence of the Death Star. They have to blow up the Death Star ASAP in order to keep everyone together. Plus, those factions that were threatening to pull out didn't want to wage open warfare, so its obvious why they wouldn't be sending more ships. And one of the few who did have ships was licking their wounds after the battle of Scarif. Or have you not seen that film? Oh, and there was the destruction of Alderaan. No doubt they lost a lot of assets there, too. So thirty ships might seem like a pitiful effort, but it might very well have been the best they could do no matter what. Losing allies sucks.

Moreover, The Empire Strikes Back shows us what happens when they are forced to evacuate a base in emergency circumstances-- people get lost in the shuffle, important people like Leia and Han. Soldiers die, equipment gets left behind, ships have to risk getting blown out of the sky. Its a mess. Literally everything bad that happens afterward in the film can be traced back to the fundamental messiness of an evacuation. So its no wonder the Rebels would make their stand at Yavin rather than evacuate and lose everything-- morale, equipment, personnel, political will, and general organization. That last part is crucial, because it is diametrically opposed to your assertion that they should have evacuated the leaders. If you haven't watched the film in a while, General Donna and Leia are actively taking part in the battle by listening to the comms, and organizing the effort. Also, Mon Mothma was at the Rebel base during Rogue One, but we see neither hide nor hair of her in ANH. Ge, its almost like the political leaders were evacuated and the only leader left behind was Donna, a general, and Leia, who literally just got there at most one day before the Death Star arrived, if not less time than that. Military leaders staying behind to organize a battle? Who would have imagined that! :roll:
you all must be drinking the same koolaid to keep imagining reasons for some of the things that happen when a solid in universe explanation already exists.
Your explanation has been noted, and judged incompatible with the evidence in the film. Try again, with less repetition of shit we've heard already.
and what known strategies and tactics existed for defending a 160km wide space station that was only just finished and nobody knew anything about?
The same way you defend a planet, maybe?

In case you haven't watched the film in a few years, the Empire didn't actually know what the Death Star's weakness was, and the only one who thought it might have a genuine fatal flaw throughout the film was Vader. That's why Vader was so hell bent on retrieving the stolen plans at the beginning of the movie. The Rebel's advantage was that their plan was, if you will pardon the cliche, just insane enough to work. The Rebel pilots themselves express their skepticism, because its a hell of an unintuitive plan. More to the point, though, one of Tarkin's aids actually comes to him and says that his men have analyzed the Rebel attack pattern and concluded that there is a genuine risk they could die. Tarkin's response?

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"

Tarkin died because in his arrogance he ignored Vader's intuitions and the expert opinions of his men. Its like you are so close to understanding the film, yet are so caught up in the desire to "win" the argument you can't quite understand what the film is trying to tell you. Tarkin didn't mount a defense at all. He trusted that the Death Star was impervious because the Death Star is huge and blistering with firepower. Vader was the one who had fighters deployed when told that the turbolaser batteries were too inaccurate to hit starfighters. Vader knew the whole time that the Rebels had a trump card. Vader has the Force, and thus intuitions about fate and destiny that Tarkin and the other Imperial suits did not have.

That's why the Rebels won. Not because Luke had the Force, but because Tarkin lacked the insight to take the threat of starfighter attacks seriously.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-07-12 10:15am

In a way Tarkin's defeat was symbolic of the defeat Galactic Empire itself later at Endor, sure the final nail is struck a year later at Jakku but Endor was the turning point.

At Endor Emperor Palpatine was too confident that his plan would work and was struck down from an angle that in his arrogance he had failed to see meaning that Anakin's love for his son and desire for redemption were stronger then Palpatine's domination of Vader.

And as Formless pointed out we saw the briefing and it wasn't a "I threw this together in 2 minutes because we're in a hurry" style of briefing but the plan was clear and obvious right down to clearly defined roles for the groups.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 11:54am

Formless wrote:
2017-07-12 12:35am
texanmarauder wrote:they didn't have nearly enough information to plan an attack on the death star until leia gave them the plans. it would have been a blind attack. [snip loaded questions about the time span]
I hate to break it to you, but what we see onscreen is final. What you imagine to be true is meaningless. And questions that you can't imagine the answer to have answers in the film and the franchise at large. They had their attack planned right down to the exact flight path they wanted the pilots to take once they were in the trench. We know because the audience sees the plan laid out in front of us at the briefing. The film does not put a clock onscreen like in 24, but Lucas is no moron who expects us to need one to realize that the Rebels had hours to formulate this attack plan. Precisely because they had an attack plan. Attack plans like that cannot be pulled out of some commander's ass in five minutes. And it is precisely because of things you yourself have said. What you refuse to do is admit that this means there was enough time to do... what they actually did.

And that's just the most obvious sign that they had more time to breath than you are giving them credit for. Things like the pilots getting briefed in a briefing room and not on the flight pads, Luke changing from his civilian outfit to a Rebel flight suit, the Rebels paying off Han, and even just the actual screen time taken up by the preparations for the battle (much longer than most modern filmmakers would spend on prep time) are plenty enough indicators of time going by for us to realize that this is not a seat of the pants make-shit-up emergency situation. Indeed, these same cues are used in other Star Wars films to indicate when this is not the case, like in the next damn movie. In The Empire Strikes Back, during the attack on Hoth we see the pilots get briefed... on the flight pads. We see people scrambling to prep an evacuation, and evacuate. We see all manner of activity to indicate that there is a time constraint on everything they do. The Imperial fleet is directly above their heads, and they know it, and the Imperial army has deployed by the time they are talking about leaving. But in ANH, the Death Star has not arrived yet. They know it will arrive because Leia was counting on the Falcon being tracked. She says this outright, but her chill attitude means she is already mentally planning around the tracking device. She is Force sensitive, after all, even if she does not know it yet. A major theme of the movie is the way the Force effects destiny. That's why the Rebels repeat "may the Force be with you" right before battle.

Why make a stand at Yavin? This is explained quite explicitly in the original film, and expanded upon in Rouge One. In Rouge One the leaders of the Alliance outright state that the Rebellion is over the instant they learn about the existence of the Death Star. They have to blow up the Death Star ASAP in order to keep everyone together. Plus, those factions that were threatening to pull out didn't want to wage open warfare, so its obvious why they wouldn't be sending more ships. And one of the few who did have ships was licking their wounds after the battle of Scarif. Or have you not seen that film? Oh, and there was the destruction of Alderaan. No doubt they lost a lot of assets there, too. So thirty ships might seem like a pitiful effort, but it might very well have been the best they could do no matter what. Losing allies sucks.

Moreover, The Empire Strikes Back shows us what happens when they are forced to evacuate a base in emergency circumstances-- people get lost in the shuffle, important people like Leia and Han. Soldiers die, equipment gets left behind, ships have to risk getting blown out of the sky. Its a mess. Literally everything bad that happens afterward in the film can be traced back to the fundamental messiness of an evacuation. So its no wonder the Rebels would make their stand at Yavin rather than evacuate and lose everything-- morale, equipment, personnel, political will, and general organization. That last part is crucial, because it is diametrically opposed to your assertion that they should have evacuated the leaders. If you haven't watched the film in a while, General Donna and Leia are actively taking part in the battle by listening to the comms, and organizing the effort. Also, Mon Mothma was at the Rebel base during Rogue One, but we see neither hide nor hair of her in ANH. Ge, its almost like the political leaders were evacuated and the only leader left behind was Donna, a general, and Leia, who literally just got there at most one day before the Death Star arrived, if not less time than that. Military leaders staying behind to organize a battle? Who would have imagined that! :roll:
you all must be drinking the same koolaid to keep imagining reasons for some of the things that happen when a solid in universe explanation already exists.
Your explanation has been noted, and judged incompatible with the evidence in the film. Try again, with less repetition of shit we've heard already.
and what known strategies and tactics existed for defending a 160km wide space station that was only just finished and nobody knew anything about?
The same way you defend a planet, maybe?

In case you haven't watched the film in a few years, the Empire didn't actually know what the Death Star's weakness was, and the only one who thought it might have a genuine fatal flaw throughout the film was Vader. That's why Vader was so hell bent on retrieving the stolen plans at the beginning of the movie. The Rebel's advantage was that their plan was, if you will pardon the cliche, just insane enough to work. The Rebel pilots themselves express their skepticism, because its a hell of an unintuitive plan. More to the point, though, one of Tarkin's aids actually comes to him and says that his men have analyzed the Rebel attack pattern and concluded that there is a genuine risk they could die. Tarkin's response?

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"

Tarkin died because in his arrogance he ignored Vader's intuitions and the expert opinions of his men. Its like you are so close to understanding the film, yet are so caught up in the desire to "win" the argument you can't quite understand what the film is trying to tell you. Tarkin didn't mount a defense at all. He trusted that the Death Star was impervious because the Death Star is huge and blistering with firepower. Vader was the one who had fighters deployed when told that the turbolaser batteries were too inaccurate to hit starfighters. Vader knew the whole time that the Rebels had a trump card. Vader has the Force, and thus intuitions about fate and destiny that Tarkin and the other Imperial suits did not have.

That's why the Rebels won. Not because Luke had the Force, but because Tarkin lacked the insight to take the threat of starfighter attacks seriously.
ill concede to the attack planning bit, but even if tarkin didn't take the threat seriously, vader did and was on the verge of defeating the attack. that is also in the film. only hans intervention saved the day on that score. as for the whole preprogrammed theory, its agreed that is conjecture with no evidence. therefore the only reasonable explanation, besides inventing things happening in the movie and more conjecture, is that luke used the force to push the torpedoes into the shaft to make an almost impossible shot. I stand by that. which is of course, what this whole argument was actually about.
Why make a stand at Yavin? This is explained quite explicitly in the original film
where?

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-12 12:06pm

The attack plan animation shows the torpedoes make the sharp downward turn to enter the chute, just like they did when deployed.

Image

Do you really think the rebel commanders didn't program the torpedoes to make that turn when they had someone run up a video presentation of them doing it?
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 12:14pm

Lord Revan wrote: And as Formless pointed out we saw the briefing and it wasn't a "I threw this together in 2 minutes because we're in a hurry" style of briefing but the plan was clear and obvious right down to clearly defined roles for the groups.
while I do concede that they could have been planning before they got the relevant info on its weakness, the briefing scene doesn't exactly reflect this. the briefing lasted less than two minutes, gave a plan of attack with a few details and that's it. it didn't say, "red squadron will cover gold squadron while gold squadron makes their way down this trench to this shaft and drops torpedoes in it" or any information about the defenses beyond "designed for a large scale assault" or give any kind of details like that. dodonna literally gives a couple of details about the stations defenses and says "you will be required to maneuver down this trench to this exhaust port to fire torpedoes down a 2m shaft to start a chain reaction to blow up the ds", no call for questions, man your ships and may the force be with you. (not exact words i know) there were no "clearly defined roles" given. I'm assuming that he left that up to the pilots themselves. so while I do concede that they could have been planning it since they found out about the death star, lets not pretend that the briefing was anything short and the bare minimum. because that's all it was.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 12:24pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-07-12 12:06pm
The attack plan animation shows the torpedoes make the sharp downward turn to enter the chute, just like they did when deployed.



Do you really think the rebel commanders didn't program the torpedoes to make that turn when they had someone run up a video presentation of them doing it?
are you saying that torpedoes have to be preprogrammed to make a turn? that they cant lock onto a target and turn to hit it? it also shows the fighter pulling up the instant the trigger is pulled. also, we didn't see red leaders torpedoes make that turn. we didn't even see the impact. all we saw was him pulling up through an explosion. the only torpedoes we see make that turn is lukes when using the force. que more "give Texan wall of ignorance shit for disagreeing with putting conjecture over what is seen on film. since I cant quote pictures, I wont. Image

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-12 12:29pm

The point is that the rebels were not reliant on Luke pushing the torpedoes into the shaft, they very clearly, from the generals planning the mission to the pilots, expected their torpedoes to be able to make the turn shown on the display.

Do you disagree with that?
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 12:33pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-07-12 12:29pm
The point is that the rebels were not reliant on Luke pushing the torpedoes into the shaft, they very clearly, from the generals planning the mission to the pilots, expected their torpedoes to be able to make the turn shown on the display.

Do you disagree with that?
no I don't. nor did I ever suggest that this was the case. nor did I ever say the shot was impossible. only near impossible. big difference between a slim chance and no chance.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-12 12:37pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-12 12:33pm
no I don't. nor did I ever suggest that this was the case. nor did I ever say the shot was impossible. only near impossible. big difference between a slim chance and no chance.
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-09 01:10pm
Eternal_Freedom
not trying to be a dick here. I just don't think that, given all the canon evidence, they were preprogrammed. there is nothing to even hint that this was the case. plus, a much more experienced pilot than luke couldn't make the shot even using the targeting computer. luke using the force to guide the torpedoes in and shoving them down the shaft is the only explanation that makes sense with the given evidence.
The orthodox interpretation is that Luke used the force to know the precise moment to fire, to improve his skill as a pilot - this is foreshadowed in the film when Obi Wan describes Anakin Skywalker as the finest starfighter pilot in the galaxy. No one is saying Luke did not use the force, but your claim that he was using it to shove the torpedoes down the shaft is...



I think you may have got that idea from this well known comedic video?
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 01:09pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-07-12 12:37pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-12 12:33pm
no I don't. nor did I ever suggest that this was the case. nor did I ever say the shot was impossible. only near impossible. big difference between a slim chance and no chance.
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-09 01:10pm
Eternal_Freedom
not trying to be a dick here. I just don't think that, given all the canon evidence, they were preprogrammed. there is nothing to even hint that this was the case. plus, a much more experienced pilot than luke couldn't make the shot even using the targeting computer. luke using the force to guide the torpedoes in and shoving them down the shaft is the only explanation that makes sense with the given evidence.
The orthodox interpretation is that Luke used the force to know the precise moment to fire, to improve his skill as a pilot - this is foreshadowed in the film when Obi Wan describes Anakin Skywalker as the finest starfighter pilot in the galaxy. No one is saying Luke did not use the force, but your claim that he was using it to shove the torpedoes down the shaft is...



I think you may have got that idea from this well known comedic video?
nope. although I have seen it. as I said before, given the fact that there are several examples throughout the movies of force sensitives using the force for various things, like force guided reactions for Anakin during the pod races, or rey using jedi mind tricks and pulling lukes lightsaber to her and defeating an albeit injured vader wannabe who had years of experience using the force versus her zero training whatsoever, is it so hard to believe? at least luke had some training from obi-wan. and ill admit "shoving them down the shaft" is more an out of hand explanation. its more using the force to make sure they hit the target, which still involves some use of telekinesis.
The orthodox interpretation is that Luke used the force to know the precise moment to fire, to improve his skill as a pilot - this is foreshadowed in the film when Obi Wan describes Anakin Skywalker as the finest starfighter pilot in the galaxy. No one is saying Luke did not use the force, but your claim that he was using it to shove the torpedoes down the shaft is...
orthodox. that's an interesting word. 1
a :  conforming to established doctrine especially in religion. in other words, the commonly accepted explanation for what you want it to be.


that implies that this little theory has been proven beyond doubt. it hasn't. even EF admitted that it was only conjecture. if we go on visuals alone, aka the film, the only shots we see making that turn are lukes. the novel has no mention of torpedoes being preprogrammed. and we have an inaccurate graphic from the briefing. that's not enough to say that they were preprogrammed. again, if the computer tells you when to fire while traveling straight at the target port, then if you mistime that shot the impact would be above or below the shaft, not off to the far left.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 01:11pm

also, in that quote you used, where did I say the shot was impossible? I said a much more experienced pilot couldn't make the shot. again, big difference.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Thanas » 2017-07-12 02:17pm

You are ignoring plenty of evidence of SW weapons being able to maneuver rapidly (like the missiles in ROTS) in favor of sticking your fingers in your ears about how the torpedoes were obviously force influenced. Impressive.

Are you related to Trump?
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 03:00pm

Thanas wrote:
2017-07-12 02:17pm
You are ignoring plenty of evidence of SW weapons being able to maneuver rapidly (like the missiles in ROTS) in favor of sticking your fingers in your ears about how the torpedoes were obviously force influenced. Impressive.

Are you related to Trump?
big difference between missiles and proton torpedoes. I assume you mean the missiles fired by the vulture droids that carry buzz droids? and I'm not ignoring anything. that seems to be the go to excuse people have when somebody disagrees with their made up explanation.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 03:01pm

and leave your daddy out of this.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Thanas » 2017-07-12 03:48pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-12 03:00pm
Thanas wrote:
2017-07-12 02:17pm
You are ignoring plenty of evidence of SW weapons being able to maneuver rapidly (like the missiles in ROTS) in favor of sticking your fingers in your ears about how the torpedoes were obviously force influenced. Impressive.

Are you related to Trump?
big difference between missiles and proton torpedoes. I assume you mean the missiles fired by the vulture droids that carry buzz droids? and I'm not ignoring anything. that seems to be the go to excuse people have when somebody disagrees with their made up explanation.

So your explanation is that the rebel alliance wasted two entire attack runs because it is clear that nobody ever believes proton torpedoes can make such turns without force assistance.

My god you are a bit dense.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Formless » 2017-07-12 03:58pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-12 11:54am
ill concede to the attack planning bit, but even if tarkin didn't take the threat seriously, vader did and was on the verge of defeating the attack. that is also in the film. only hans intervention saved the day on that score.
That does not matter one bit. Every battle has twists and turns. By nature, they are unpredictable. Han showing up was not planned for by the Rebels, because he outright told Leia he wasn't interested in joining the Rebellion. It does not matter if Vader nearly defeated the starfighter attack, what matters is that a) he didn't defeat it and b) Tarkin's own men realized the Rebels could win despite not knowing what weakness they were exploiting. Everyone in the film except Tarkin realized the Rebel plan could work, but no one knew Luke was Force sensitive or else the Rebels would have given him the first pass at the trench, not the last one. Or not even bother with letting non-force sensitive pilots take a shot at it at all, for that matter. Luke was the nobody from the galactic sticks who was only allowed in the seat of an X-Wing because a couple of his friends among the existing fighter pilots vouched for him. And Luke himself needed Obi-Wan's encouragement to turn off his targeting computer. Its a major plot point of the film that his force sensitivity was another unexpected turn in the battle, just like Han and Chewie showing up. Everyone in the film believe that their targeting computers were up to the task of hitting the exhaust port, and for all we know they actually were-- we will never know, however, because Luke successfully hit the mark using only his intuition.

The plot of A New Hope isn't subtle about all of this. Luke's decision was most pivotal to his personal growth, but not necessarily the battle. The next time they needed to blow up a Death Star they sent their only Jedi on the ground mission to destroy the shield generator, and they managed to blow that one up just fine. Seriously, how long has it been since you watched the films?
as for the whole preprogrammed theory, its agreed that is conjecture with no evidence.
It is directly evidenced by the film. It is not conjectural, or up for debate. It is a fact. Every time they talk about using their targeting computer to hit the exhaust port and the very fact that Luke turns his off in favor of intuitive marksmanship they are telling the audience "these torpedoes are programmed by the targeting computers specifically for this mission." Concede this point, or shut the hell up. No one wants to hear you repeat the same lies over and over again.
Why make a stand at Yavin? This is explained quite explicitly in the original film
where?
"This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

"We have no time for our sorrows, commander. You must use the information in this R2 unit to help plan the attack. Its our only hope."

And oh, yeah, this last one: "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"

Its like this is a plot point that permeates the whole film or something. The Death Star represents an existential threat to the Rebellion itself, and both sides of the conflict are in agreement on that point. So blowing it up sooner rather than later is a necessity.

(by the way, in fairness for something I said earlier, re-watching the Death Star conference scene there is one guy there who is even more pessimistic than Vader about the threat the stolen technical plans represent, but only in the sense that Vader is confident he can get the plans back)



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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-12 04:49pm

Thanas wrote:
So your explanation is that the rebel alliance wasted two entire attack runs because it is clear that nobody ever believes proton torpedoes can make such turns without force assistance.

My god you are a bit dense.
that is NOT what I said. I thought putting words in peoples mouths and deliberately twisting shit around was below the supermods.

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