Spacedocks take on the versus debate

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 11:21am

Rhadamantus wrote:When the star destroyers are moving around the planet in a pincher movement.
I have never seen such a scene.

I have never seen star destroyers "moving around a planet in a pincher movement".

Maybe you could provide a link to a youtube clip with such a scene.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-04 11:29am

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:When the star destroyers are moving around the planet in a pincher movement.
I have never seen such a scene.

I have never seen star destroyers "moving around a planet in a pincher movement".

Maybe you could provide a link to a youtube clip with such a scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3QRjSQ2v9c
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-04 11:37am

They are. You will be enlightened later.

MASS is not the same as GRAVITY.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 11:38am

Thank you - although somehow I could have guessed that you will provide a link to the whole movie. That only shows that you are spiteful.

Maybe you can say me where exactly I have to look - maybe a time from this video?

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 11:41am

NecronLord wrote:They are.
I assume you mean that velocity and speed are the same.


NecronLord wrote:You will be enlightened later.
Thank you. And I mean that honestly. I'm always willing to learn.


NecronLord wrote:MASS is not the same as GRAVITY.
I never assumed they are.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-04 11:53am

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Thank you - although somehow I could have guessed that you will provide a link to the whole movie. That only shows that you are spiteful.

Maybe you can say me where exactly I have to look - maybe a time from this video?
Here is the pincher movement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZigWFyK2o&t=256s
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-04 11:58am

Okay Watch Man. Which takes more energy to accelerate with a given force - a stone in free space, no planets around, or one on the ground?

Put it another way, if the fighter appears to travel at 2000 Gs from a 1G planet (Leia is not a pancake) and the repulsors actually are Wells-style gravity-ignorers (they're not) that is still only taking 1G for a small period of its fight away. It's still going 1999 Gs on engine power.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 12:10pm

Rhadamantus wrote:Here is the pincher movement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZigWFyK2o&t=256s
I see star destroyers and other ships and starfighters flying around.

But I do not see star destroyers making a pincher movement oder flying as fast as you claim they are able to.

If you can see there a pincher movement or star destroyers and other ships and starfighters flying as fast as you claim they are able to, you should explain where exactly you are seeing this.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-04 12:11pm

That is why Ackbar is yelling it's a trap. Read the book and watch the movie.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-04 12:17pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:
NecronLord wrote:They are.
I assume you mean that velocity and speed are the same.
They are not. Speed is a scalar quantity showing how much distance is travelled per unit of time. Velocity is a vector quantity which describes sped and direction. Hence one can accelerate (change velocity) without changing speed if one turns (changes direction). This is why you feel centrifugal/centripetal force acting on you when a car goes around a tight corner - your velocity changes and you experience a force even though your speed remains the same.

EDIT: Also of great importance, especially when talking about velocity in space, is what that velocity is relative to, or more simply "how fast am I going compared with Earth's surface/the Moon/the Sun/the centre of the galaxy.

Case in point, on Earth, at the equator, if you're standing still you have zero velocity relative to Earth's surface, but 463 m/s velocity relative to Earth's core (as the planet is rotating) - that's actually well above the speed of sound at sea level incidentally. Also, you have a velocity of ~30km/s relative to the Sun (from the Earth's orbit) and (I can't recall the exact figure) several hundred km/s relative tot he centre of the galaxy (from the Sun orbiting the galaxy's centre of mass).
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Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 12:21pm

NecronLord wrote:Okay Watch Man. Which takes more energy to accelerate with a given force - a stone in free space, no planets around, or one on the ground?

Put it another way, if the fighter appears to travel at 2000 Gs from a 1G planet (Leia is not a pancake) and the repulsors actually are Wells-style gravity-ignorers (they're not) that is still only taking 1G for a small period of its fight away. It's still going 1999 Gs on engine power.
According to my layman's understanding of physics, as long as you do not change the potential energy of the stone by lifting it up, the needed energy should be the same in both cases.

Moving a stone horizontally on the surface of a planet (friction ignored) shouldn't need more energy than moving the same stone in space where is no significant gravitation.

But lifting the stone 1 m up on the planet should - according to my layman's understanding of physics - need more energy as moving the stone 1 m horizontally as the potential energy is increased in the first case but not in the second case.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 12:23pm

Rhadamantus wrote:That is why Ackbar is yelling it's a trap. Read the book and watch the movie.
I have seen the movie.

And I have heard Ackbar yelling: "It's a trap."

But I have not seen a pincher movement or star destroyers and other ships and starfighters flying as fast as you claim they are able to.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-04 12:28pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:That is why Ackbar is yelling it's a trap. Read the book and watch the movie.
I have seen the movie.

And I have heard Ackbar yelling: "It's a trap."

But I have not seen a pincher movement or star destroyers and other ships and starfighters flying as fast as you claim they are able to.
The Imperial Fleet is present (or parts at least) when Luke, Han and co arrive in their shuttle. It is absent (out of sight, presumably around the far side of the planet or at least under the horizon) when the Rebel Fleet arrives. A short period later (long enough for Lando to approach the shield and veer off) the Imperial Fleet re-appears and closes to pin the Rebels between them and the Death Star.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-04 12:28pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:That is why Ackbar is yelling it's a trap. Read the book and watch the movie.
I have seen the movie.

And I have heard Ackbar yelling: "It's a trap."

But I have not seen a pincher movement or star destroyers and other ships and starfighters flying as fast as you claim they are able to.
They moved around the planet in the space of minutes.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 12:35pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:
NecronLord wrote:They are.
I assume you mean that velocity and speed are the same.
They are not. Speed is a scalar quantity showing how much distance is travelled per unit of time. Velocity is a vector quantity which describes sped and direction. Hence one can accelerate (change velocity) without changing speed if one turns (changes direction). This is why you feel centrifugal/centripetal force acting on you when a car goes around a tight corner - your velocity changes and you experience a force even though your speed remains the same.

EDIT: Also of great importance, especially when talking about velocity in space, is what that velocity is relative to, or more simply "how fast am I going compared with Earth's surface/the Moon/the Sun/the centre of the galaxy.

Case in point, on Earth, at the equator, if you're standing still you have zero velocity relative to Earth's surface, but 463 m/s velocity relative to Earth's core (as the planet is rotating) - that's actually well above the speed of sound at sea level incidentally. Also, you have a velocity of ~30km/s relative to the Sun (from the Earth's orbit) and (I can't recall the exact figure) several hundred km/s relative tot he centre of the galaxy (from the Sun orbiting the galaxy's centre of mass).
Thank you.

I believe I understand the difference.

My problem is that, if I'm not mistaken, in my native language there is no such differentiation.

I just used an Oxford Dictionay and whether I entered speed or velocity, the translation is the same word from my native language. That's why I never assumed that there may be a difference. It may be that physicist are using words of my native language in a different way than is common. But if than I'm not familiar with it.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 12:42pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:The Imperial Fleet is present (or parts at least) when Luke, Han and co arrive in their shuttle. It is absent (out of sight, presumably around the far side of the planet or at least under the horizon) when the Rebel Fleet arrives. A short period later (long enough for Lando to approach the shield and veer off) the Imperial Fleet re-appears and closes to pin the Rebels between them and the Death Star.
But we have never seen the Imperial Fleet moving behind the planet and back.

One moment it is at the Death Star.

Another moment - a not specified time later - it is not at the Death Star - presumably behind the planet.

Another moment - a not specified time later - it is again at the Death Star.

We have not seen them moving.

We have not seen them behind the planet.

We do not know how much time passed between all three moments.

Rhadamantus wrote:They moved around the planet in the space of minutes.
Please provide evidence that the fleet moved around the planet in the space of minutes.

I have not seen this with my own eyes in the movie.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-04 12:45pm

The novels themselves are canon too, you know.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 12:50pm

Rhadamantus wrote:The novels themselves are canon too, you know.
And does the novel gives distances, time or velocity/speed of the fleet?

Did the novel state that the fleet moved around the planet in the space of minutes and made a pincher movement.

Maybe you can quote the text passages where such data is provided or such a feat is described.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-04 12:58pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:The Imperial Fleet is present (or parts at least) when Luke, Han and co arrive in their shuttle. It is absent (out of sight, presumably around the far side of the planet or at least under the horizon) when the Rebel Fleet arrives. A short period later (long enough for Lando to approach the shield and veer off) the Imperial Fleet re-appears and closes to pin the Rebels between them and the Death Star.
But we have never seen the Imperial Fleet moving behind the planet and back.

One moment it is at the Death Star.

Another moment - a not specified time later - it is not at the Death Star - presumably behind the planet.

Another moment - a not specified time later - it is again at the Death Star.

We have not seen them moving.

We have not seen them behind the planet.

We do not know how much time passed between all three moments.
Well were else do you think the damn ships went? They're around the Death Star when the capured shuttle arrives, are absent when the Rebel Fleet turns up, then re-appear a considerable distance away then close in on the Rebels shortly thereafter. The time between them being not-seen when the Rebel ships drop out of hyperspace and them appearing is, at most, minutes. They must have been on the far side of the Endor moon as we don't see them around the Moon when Lando and co drop out of hyperspace - and we see that approach from Lando's perspective.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing here. "we do not see them move?" Really?

We know that several hours, more likely a day or more, passes between the strike team's shuttle arriving and the Rebel Fleet arriving (since the characters go through a day/night cycle), and then we see the (very short) span of time between "Rebels arrive" and "Imperial Fleet appears."

By your logic, we can't say that the Rebel fleet moved away from the Death Star and in among the Imperial Fleet because we didn't see them move. Honestly there is canon purism and then there's being obtuse on purpose.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-04 12:58pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:The novels themselves are canon too, you know.
And does the novel gives distances, time or velocity/speed of the fleet?

Did the novel state that the fleet moved around the planet in the space of minutes and made a pincher movement.

Maybe you can quote the text passages where such data is provided or such a feat is described.
I would suggest you actually watch the movie. Given this was an easily noticeable plot point, that you somehow missed.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-04 01:10pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:
NecronLord wrote:They are.
I assume you mean that velocity and speed are the same.
They are not.
You and I know this, but...


Speed is a scalar quantity showing how much distance is travelled per unit of time. Velocity is a vector quantity which describes sped and direction. Hence one can accelerate (change velocity) without changing speed if one turns (changes direction). This is why you feel centrifugal/centripetal force acting on you when a car goes around a tight corner - your velocity changes and you experience a force even though your speed remains the same.
Reasonably certain this is going to go over his head.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by NecronLord » 2017-07-04 01:14pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Okay Watch Man. Which takes more energy to accelerate with a given force - a stone in free space, no planets around, or one on the ground?
According to my layman's understanding of physics, as long as you do not change the potential energy of the stone by lifting it up, the needed energy should be the same in both cases.

Moving a stone horizontally on the surface of a planet (friction ignored) shouldn't need more energy than moving the same stone in space where is no significant gravitation.

But lifting the stone 1 m up on the planet should - according to my layman's understanding of physics - need more energy as moving the stone 1 m horizontally as the potential energy is increased in the first case but not in the second case.
If you have a H.G. Wells type gravity-nullifying system, your ship is functionally operating as if it is in open space at all times. Agreed?

You'll notice that most of the calculations involved just treat it as straight accelleration in open space without taking into account the planet's gravity. 1G is an irrelevance compared to the feats of speed that Star Wars and Star Trek ships accomplish with consummate ease. It's less than 1% the accelleration of either faction's ships, we generally don't bother taking it into account.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 01:36pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Well were else do you think the damn ships went?
I do not know as I have not seen where they went or how long they stayed there.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:They're around the Death Star when the capured shuttle arrives,
No - only a few ships are there when the capured shuttle arrives.

Image

Where is the rest of the fleet?

Maybe out of sight?
Eternal_Freedom wrote:are absent when the Rebel Fleet turns up,
The few ships that were seen when the shuttle arrived where not seen where they were seen last when the Rebel Fleet arrived.

But where were these few ships and the rest of the Imperial Fleet?

We do not know.

Maybe they were still behind the planet?

Maybe they were already on their way to the position where they were noticed by the Rebel Fleet?

Maybe they were already were they were when they were noticed by the Rebel Fleet?

That we did not see them when the Rebel Fleet approached the Death Star seems to me to be irrelevant as the Rebel fleet approached the Death Star from another vector. Noticing that the shield is still up, they changed their vector to evade a collision with the shield around the Death Star and departed on another vector flying into the direction of the waiting Imperial Fleet.


Eternal_Freedom wrote:then re-appear a considerable distance away then close in on the Rebels shortly thereafter.
Did the Imperial Fleet really re-appeared only after the Rebel Fleet arrived - or where they there already?

How fast were the Imperial Fleet approaching the Death Star after they were noticed by the Redel Fleet?

Eternal_Freedom wrote:The time between them being not-seen when the Rebel ships drop out of hyperspace and them appearing is, at most, minutes.
Maybe.

But is it relevant that we did not see the Imperial Fleet when the Rebel fleet dropped out of hyperspace?

Did we see the position where the Imperial fleet was when it was noticed by the Rebel Fleet before the Rebel Fleet noticed the Imperial Fleet?

Did we see the vector from which the Imperial fleet approached the position they were on when the Rebel Fleet noticed them?

Was this position or vector empty then?
Eternal_Freedom wrote:They must have been on the far side of the Endor moon as we don't see them around the Moon when Lando and co drop out of hyperspace - and we see that approach from Lando's perspective.
Yes. We would have seen at the approach of the Rebel Fleet if the Imperial Fleet were between the Rebel Fleet and the Death Star.

But would we have seen the Imperial Fleet if it were not between the Rebel Fleet and the Death Star - e.g. on the position they were on when they were noticed by the Rebel Fleet or on it's way to this position?
Eternal_Freedom wrote:I honestly don't know what you're arguing here. "we do not see them move?" Really?
I argue that I have never seen on screen with my own eyes a Star Wars ship moving as fast as Rhadamantus is claiming they are able to fly.

It may be that, considering dialogue, one could conclude that they are able to fly as fast.

But I have never seen this.

There is no visual confirmation.

And there is no reason why they should be moving like slugs all the time we see them if they are able to move as fast as Rhadamantus is claiming.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 01:39pm

NecronLord wrote:Reasonably certain this is going to go over his head.
arrogant swellhead.

With such an attitude, I do not think it wise if you try to explain anything to me.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by WATCH-MAN » 2017-07-04 01:41pm

NecronLord wrote:If you have a H.G. Wells type gravity-nullifying system, your ship is functionally operating as if it is in open space at all times. Agreed?
I'm not familiar with "H.G. Wells type gravity-nullifying system".
NecronLord wrote:You'll notice that most of the calculations involved just treat it as straight accelleration in open space without taking into account the planet's gravity. 1G is an irrelevance compared to the feats of speed that Star Wars and Star Trek ships accomplish with consummate ease. It's less than 1% the accelleration of either faction's ships, we generally don't bother taking it into account.
And?

It seems that you have not really read what is argued here because you are making a still disputed claim to the premise of your argument.

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