Spacedocks take on the versus debate

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-09 04:44pm

Oh yes, damnit. Still, the other points remain.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Batman » 2017-07-09 04:57pm

Oh I quite agree. But sorry you left yourself wide open with missing that one :P
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-09 05:05pm

The sad part is I did actually think about Vader choking people but inexplicably only remembered him interrogating poor Captain Antilles at the start.
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-09 05:07pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2017-07-09 02:44pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-09 01:10pm
Eternal_Freedom
not trying to be a dick here. I just don't think that, given all the canon evidence, they were preprogrammed. there is nothing to even hint that this was the case. plus, a much more experienced pilot than luke couldn't make the shot even using the targeting computer. luke using the force to guide the torpedoes in and shoving them down the shaft is the only explanation that makes sense with the given evidence.
Except the Rebel leaders clearly expected the shot to be possible for non-Force-users. Red Leader attempts the shot and almost makes it. The targeting computer appears to indicate nothing more than a distance and/or time to a firing point and an indication of when to fire (hence why it contains a wireframe image of the trench, numbers scrolling down at the fighter travels).

Also, Obi-Wan says to Luke, in rapid succession, "use the Force Luke," "let go, Luke" and "trust me" and that's it, all of which are before he turns off the targeting computer. Nothing said about push the torpedos down the shaft. Having just re-watched it, Luke takes a breath, holds it, fires, the torpedos enter the shaft, Luke breathes out and then pulls out of the trench. That leaves very little time indeed for any kind of telekinesis, which as we see in ESB and ROTJ, takes Luke at least many seconds and/or great focus and concentration (pulling his lightsabre, trying to lift his X-Wing, levitating crates, makign Threepio float etc), neither of which he has time for.

Frankly, given that we don't see Luke use any telekinesis at all until ESB, it seems an extremely foolish proposition to suggest that his first use of it is to force two fast-moving objects to make a right-angle turn down a narrow shaft in a battle while flying at full throttle in a narrow trench when he has a window of perhaps three seconds at absolute most.

Now, letting the Force control his timing, when he and Obi-Wan had already discussed that (and demonstrated it on the Falcon against the training remote) makes a lot more sense and requires far fewer leaps in logic.

Come to think of it, I'm struggling to think of anyone using telekinesis in ANH at all, never mind Luke.
its a stretch either way. there is no evidence that luke can telekinetically push the torpedoes into the shaft but there is also no evidence that the torpedoes are preprogrammed or such. as for his "training" on the falcon, that had more to do with reaction than timing. "Luke: with the blast shield down I can't even see. how am I supposed to fight? Obi-wan: your eyes can deceive you. don't trust them." the only way it would have been timing is if luke knew when the remote was going to fire. which would defeat the whole purpose.

does the force choke count as telekinesis?

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-09 05:08pm

batman beat me to it lol trying to type with a 17 month old on one arm is slow business lol

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-09 06:22pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-09 05:07pm

its a stretch either way. there is no evidence that luke can telekinetically push the torpedoes into the shaft but there is also no evidence that the torpedoes are preprogrammed or such. as for his "training" on the falcon, that had more to do with reaction than timing. "Luke: with the blast shield down I can't even see. how am I supposed to fight? Obi-wan: your eyes can deceive you. don't trust them." the only way it would have been timing is if luke knew when the remote was going to fire. which would defeat the whole purpose.

does the force choke count as telekinesis?
If, as you admit, there is no evidence either way, so we can fall back on conjecture, and for that we can apply occam's razor.

Option 1: Luke is suddenly, and without any training, able to use the Force to push two torpedoes into a right-angle turn within their own length into a narrow shaft with very little time in a high-stress environment, when he does not explicitly use telekinesis until the next film, and in a much more limited fashion.

or

Option 2: Luke trusts the Force to time the shot exactly right, and the torpedos are pre-programmed for a specific turn after a specific time - which is something we've been able to do with rockets since at least the late 50's/60's and with torpedoes since (IIRC) WW2.

Option 2 has fewer unknowns and builds on established facts - Luke is shown by Obi-Wan to let the Force guide his timing and reactions, and the torpedo shot is considered by the other Rebels to be possible for any pilot, even if very difficult - and thus is, IMO, more probable.

When you add to that that we have seen missile weapons with extremely capable guidance systems elsewhere (most prominently the missiles fired by Slave-1 against Obi-Wan's fighter over Geonosis in AOTC), and the fact that the other attack runs (Gold and Red Leaders) also made their approach down the trench, which requires the torpedoes to still make that 90 degree turn, it seems that the option 2 stated above is far more probable than the telekinesis idea.

And yes I forgot the Force choke. But I defy you to find me an example of telekinesis used anywhere in the eight films that would compare to the theoretical ability to force two torpedoes moving at speed into a 90 degree turn within two metres. The acceleration required is insane.
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“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-09 07:00pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2017-07-09 06:22pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-09 05:07pm

its a stretch either way. there is no evidence that luke can telekinetically push the torpedoes into the shaft but there is also no evidence that the torpedoes are preprogrammed or such. as for his "training" on the falcon, that had more to do with reaction than timing. "Luke: with the blast shield down I can't even see. how am I supposed to fight? Obi-wan: your eyes can deceive you. don't trust them." the only way it would have been timing is if luke knew when the remote was going to fire. which would defeat the whole purpose.

does the force choke count as telekinesis?
If, as you admit, there is no evidence either way, so we can fall back on conjecture, and for that we can apply occam's razor.

Option 1: Luke is suddenly, and without any training, able to use the Force to push two torpedoes into a right-angle turn within their own length into a narrow shaft with very little time in a high-stress environment, when he does not explicitly use telekinesis until the next film, and in a much more limited fashion.

or

Option 2: Luke trusts the Force to time the shot exactly right, and the torpedos are pre-programmed for a specific turn after a specific time - which is something we've been able to do with rockets since at least the late 50's/60's and with torpedoes since (IIRC) WW2.

Option 2 has fewer unknowns and builds on established facts - Luke is shown by Obi-Wan to let the Force guide his timing and reactions, and the torpedo shot is considered by the other Rebels to be possible for any pilot, even if very difficult - and thus is, IMO, more probable.

When you add to that that we have seen missile weapons with extremely capable guidance systems elsewhere (most prominently the missiles fired by Slave-1 against Obi-Wan's fighter over Geonosis in AOTC), and the fact that the other attack runs (Gold and Red Leaders) also made their approach down the trench, which requires the torpedoes to still make that 90 degree turn, it seems that the option 2 stated above is far more probable than the telekinesis idea.

And yes I forgot the Force choke. But I defy you to find me an example of telekinesis used anywhere in the eight films that would compare to the theoretical ability to force two torpedoes moving at speed into a 90 degree turn within two metres. The acceleration required is insane.
red leaders torpedoes impacted to the side of and maybe a tad above the shaft opening and that was using the targeting computer. if it was just a case of knowing when to hit the trigger, then the shot would have simply been above or below the shaft, not to the side. but as I said earlier, the pilots, who are used to using weapons like these, thought that it would be impossible even for a computer to hit a 2m hole. the torpedoes don't seem to turn 90 degrees on a dime in a slow motion examination of those frames. from the looks of it its more like a slow curve from launch. Image as you can see, the torpedoes are already changing their trajectory as soon as they come into frame. so maybe it is a combination of the two as you said. while I still don't buy the preprogrammed stuff, I think its more of a "let gravity do the work" kind of thing. then again, we may never know since lucas wasn't thinking about how the nuts and bolts of his stuff works when he created that monster.

on a side note, is it just me or are those torpedoes WAY bigger than they should be, given the size of the launcher ports on an X-wing? they look to be almost a meter wide in size. the launch ports are only about the size of a softball from the looks of it. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8&t=105s[/youtube] go to the first second as luke is getting in his X-wing. the launch port for the torpedoes is clearly visible. that's smaller than lukes head. wtf? :?

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-09 11:29pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-09 12:09pm
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-07-09 08:22am
And I think we've seen torpedoes moving on their own with non-force users too.
try doing something that you have consistently refused to do this entire time and PROVE IT. you make claim after claim, accusation after accusation and have never proved it. so either prove it or shut your cockholster.
Other people have now showed you.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-10 12:06am

Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-07-09 11:29pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-09 12:09pm
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-07-09 08:22am
And I think we've seen torpedoes moving on their own with non-force users too.
try doing something that you have consistently refused to do this entire time and PROVE IT. you make claim after claim, accusation after accusation and have never proved it. so either prove it or shut your cockholster.
Other people have now showed you.
no, you made the claim, PROVE IT!

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-10 12:12am

READ THE THREAD.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-10 12:53am

Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-07-10 12:12am
READ THE THREAD.
read my last post. prove it. you made the claim, so prove it. its that simple. nobody has said anything about non force users torpedoes moving on their own. so you claimed it, now cough up the evidence. don't just give some pussy bullshit shift the burden of proof answer. actually prove it.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Thanas » 2017-07-10 03:11am

Texanmarauder, your wall of ignorance tactics in this thread are not good conduct. Shape up or prepare to ship out.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-10 10:34am

Thanas wrote:
2017-07-10 03:11am
Texanmarauder, your wall of ignorance tactics in this thread are not good conduct. Shape up or prepare to ship out.
not my ignorance. he makes claims and wont even try to prove them. he relies on everybody else to do it for him. is that not in forum rules? yes.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Thanas » 2017-07-10 12:23pm

It is also in the forum rules not to whine at moderaters per PM or talk back but instead follow the clearly spelled-out chain of command here. Yet you did both whine via PM and talk back, so I guess that makes you less competent in reading the forum rules than you think you are.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-10 12:26pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-09 07:00pm
red leaders torpedoes impacted to the side of and maybe a tad above the shaft opening and that was using the targeting computer. if it was just a case of knowing when to hit the trigger, then the shot would have simply been above or below the shaft, not to the side. but as I said earlier, the pilots, who are used to using weapons like these, thought that it would be impossible even for a computer to hit a 2m hole. the torpedoes don't seem to turn 90 degrees on a dime in a slow motion examination of those frames. from the looks of it its more like a slow curve from launch. Image as you can see, the torpedoes are already changing their trajectory as soon as they come into frame. so maybe it is a combination of the two as you said. while I still don't buy the preprogrammed stuff, I think its more of a "let gravity do the work" kind of thing. then again, we may never know since lucas wasn't thinking about how the nuts and bolts of his stuff works when he created that monster.
You're overstating something considerably here. On being told the target area is two metres wide, ONE pilot says it's impossible, not all or even some of them. And again, enough of them clearly thought it was possible or else they wouldn't have bothered letting the Y-Wings have a crack at the attack run before Luke tries it.

Also, "so maybe it is a combination of the two as you said" what are you referring to here? I gave two options, one yours (the telekinesis idea) and the other mine (the preprogrammed flight plan idea). I did not propose a combination of the two.

And I dunno where you get your "let gravity do the work" thing from, unless of course you saying that this is what you now think is a concession that your telekinesis idea was wrong. If so, say so.

That being said, the gravity of the Death Star is simply not strong enough to induce a turn that radical. The thing isn't big enough to cause more than, at most, 1g of surface gravity and considerably less given it's small size and the large amounts of empty space within the structure. The only way the torpedoes would arc that tightly under gravity alone is if they were moving very slowly, which they can't be, since they're fired from the X-Wing and accelerate away from it, and said X-Wing is moving very quickly indeed already.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-07-10 02:26pm

2 very important facts we need to remember when discussing the final battle of ANH.

First as far as we know no-one in the rebellion knew that Luke had any talents in the Force and thus as far as anyone planning the attack knew Luke was talented pilot who just happened to be related to Clone Wars era Jedi.

As such and this is the second fact, enough of the rebel military command must have considered that there was enough of a chance for the attack to succeed without a presense of Force user (since they couldn't rely on one just appearing out of nowhere), they're desperate sure but not retarded and if there was no realistic chance for the attack to succeed without a Force user present, launching the attack would have been a waste of resources the rebels could afford to do.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-10 04:55pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote: You're overstating something considerably here. On being told the target area is two metres wide, ONE pilot says it's impossible, not all or even some of them. And again, enough of them clearly thought it was possible or else they wouldn't have bothered letting the Y-Wings have a crack at the attack run before Luke tries it.

Also, "so maybe it is a combination of the two as you said" what are you referring to here? I gave two options, one yours (the telekinesis idea) and the other mine (the preprogrammed flight plan idea). I did not propose a combination of the two.

And I dunno where you get your "let gravity do the work" thing from, unless of course you saying that this is what you now think is a concession that your telekinesis idea was wrong. If so, say so.

That being said, the gravity of the Death Star is simply not strong enough to induce a turn that radical. The thing isn't big enough to cause more than, at most, 1g of surface gravity and considerably less given it's small size and the large amounts of empty space within the structure. The only way the torpedoes would arc that tightly under gravity alone is if they were moving very slowly, which they can't be, since they're fired from the X-Wing and accelerate away from it, and said X-Wing is moving very quickly indeed already.
let me rephrase. I was speculating that it was a combo of the two. my apologies. not sure why I worded it that way.
as for overstating how difficult the shot is, I don't think I did. as I have said before, I'm not very good at articulation, so I will sum up with a quote from a reddit article.
reddit article wrote:Remember also, the Death Star was designed to take on a fleet of battlecruisers. The whole point of the trench run by Red and Gold team was that it was an incredible Hail Mary pass to save the rebel base (and thus the rebellion itself) from instant annihilation, where they used every spare pilot they could find to fly small, cobbled-together ships down the trench where the big guns couldn't shred them, and even THEN they only succeeded with moments to spare by losing most of the team and having one of their boys just so happen to be the greatest pilot and Force user of his generation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/co ... _is_not_a/ the attack on the ds was a must. it was either try a damn near impossible shot and maybe make it or do nothing and lose everything for sure. IIRC they only had 30 mins from the time that the DS entered orbit. that's probably not enough time to evacuate the base, people, equipment and so on. so there is no reason why they would hold anybody back if this was an all or nothing. another question is how long does it take for them to preprogram torpedoes? and I will remind you, that the force exists. we see it used in the movies. there is no evidence whatsoever that the torpedoes were preprogrammed except conjecture and speculation.

in your first option, you mentioned luke being able to use telekinesis with no training. Anakin was able to use the force to enhance his reflexes with no training or even knowing that he was doing it, to pod race at speeds that no human could handle without said force. he was also able to use the force to read minds or whatever he was doing to correctly guess the pictures on the pad during his interview with the jedi council. rey was able to not only use telekinesis to pull the lightsaber to her, she was able to use mind tricks and also also defeat a mostly trained vader wannabe with years of training, including from luke himself, the first time she ever picked up a lightsaber. and that was literally with no training in the force whatsoever. given all of that, pushing two torpedoes into a 2 meter hole after minimal training for a few hours doesn't seem like a big deal.

speaking of conjecture, I was proposing a combination of the two ideas to show luke "nudging" the torpedoes instead of just force shoving them into the opening. you are right that gravity alone wouldn't do the trick. I was trying to come up with a third option.

and something else I just noticed from rewatching the trench run. wedge says "my scope shows the tower but I cant see the exhaust port. are you sure the computer can hit it?" that explicitly implies that the computer is aiming the torpedoes, yet luke didn't even use the computer. again, the same pilot is questioning if the computer can hit a target that, while in the trench, his computer cant even see yet.

earlier, you mentioned the missiles from slave 1. yes, we saw one in action during AOTC . but there is a big difference between a missile that's locked on and a torpedo that is little more than a cone shaped warhead.

even with computer targeting, we only see one blast point next to the shaft. what happened to the other torpedo?

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-10 05:01pm

Lord Revan wrote:
2017-07-10 02:26pm
2 very important facts we need to remember when discussing the final battle of ANH.

First as far as we know no-one in the rebellion knew that Luke had any talents in the Force and thus as far as anyone planning the attack knew Luke was talented pilot who just happened to be related to Clone Wars era Jedi.

As such and this is the second fact, enough of the rebel military command must have considered that there was enough of a chance for the attack to succeed without a presense of Force user (since they couldn't rely on one just appearing out of nowhere), they're desperate sure but not retarded and if there was no realistic chance for the attack to succeed without a Force user present, launching the attack would have been a waste of resources the rebels could afford to do.
while they clearly knew the force existed, I was not suggesting that they knew anything about luke being a force user. luke just happened to be part of the attack squadron. but its clear that this particular attack only succeeded due to luke being able to use the force. call it a stroke of luck for the rebellion.

as for your second fact, did they really have a choice? it was either go down fighting with a slim to none chance to win, or just go down. as I pointed out to EF, they only had 30 minutes from the time that the DS entered orbit. and from all appearances, it seems that they had either not enough, or no ships present. or they were still being repaired from the battle of scarif. to be fair though, leia did think that they were being tracked, which they were.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-10 06:04pm

texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-10 12:53am
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-07-10 12:12am
READ THE THREAD.
read my last post. prove it. you made the claim, so prove it. its that simple. nobody has said anything about non force users torpedoes moving on their own. so you claimed it, now cough up the evidence. don't just give some pussy bullshit shift the burden of proof answer. actually prove it.
I forgot where they said Red Leader was a force user.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-10 09:50pm

Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-07-10 06:04pm
texanmarauder wrote:
2017-07-10 12:53am
Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-07-10 12:12am
READ THE THREAD.
read my last post. prove it. you made the claim, so prove it. its that simple. nobody has said anything about non force users torpedoes moving on their own. so you claimed it, now cough up the evidence. don't just give some pussy bullshit shift the burden of proof answer. actually prove it.
I forgot where they said Red Leader was a force user.
that's because they didn't and TMK, he wasnt. but his torpedoes went wild, even using the targeting computer. one Impacted to the left of the shaft and the other missed entirely from the lack of scorch marks. that or they somehow both hit the same exact spot even though they were launched simultaneously. so either the torpedoes are simply not capable of that tight a turn on their own, or their targeting was getting jammed. not sure on that last one, but I think there was a reference to it in the novel.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-07-10 09:56pm

It's also possible the jamming effected when they took turns.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-10 10:05pm

Rhadamantus wrote:
2017-07-10 09:56pm
It's also possible the jamming effected when they took turns.
if that is true then that would render the preprogramming theory all but debunked and give credence to the "luke guides the torpedoes in with the force" theory as being the only viable option. after all, we know the force exists and can be used and such. the preprogramming idea is only conjecture as we have never seen a torpedo programmed as such.

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Batman » 2017-07-10 10:07pm

No it doesn't.
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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by texanmarauder » 2017-07-10 10:22pm

Batman wrote:
2017-07-10 10:07pm
No it doesn't.
care to elaborate?

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Re: Spacedocks take on the versus debate

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-07-11 12:10pm

The more reasonable supposition as to why Red Leader missed (narrowly) is (apart from Rule of Drama and the plot) is he got the timing very slightly wrong. The targeting computer wasn't actually firing the torpedos after all, simply telling the pilots when to fire. A split second delay is enough to miss.
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