The Founders vs the Empire

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The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-03 06:06pm

A new wormhole is found right near the Founder homeworld connecting it to a Star Wars system in the mid areas- not core, not outer rim.

A SW ship comes through and through luck and surprise, they manage to capture it partially intact and interrogate some of the crew.

They recognize-
1) Crap, these Solids are way more hostile and dangerous than the Federation.

2) Crap, we don't get how his ship works and it'd take decades minimum to figure it out, and it's clearly too strong for us to win with Jem'Haddar, so, we're not even going to try, we'll leave all of those at home. Maybe we'll take some Vorta...

3) CRAP, they're going to notice this wormhole before too long and come out right in the core of the Dominion, likely taking out our homeworld first, but even if we run, they'd dismantle the whole Dominion before too long.

So they decide on a radical course of action- send much of their species, a million Changelings, in to try and subvert and take over the Empire if at all possible. Replace Emperor Palpatine by politics or directly replacing him (of course not knowing he's a Sith off the bat, though they can find out and re-evaluate plans accordingly), and try and make the Empire into a new buffer against Solids.

They start out one year before Rogue One.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Darth Tanner » 2017-04-04 07:23am

An interesting premise that depends on a few factors.

At what point in the ST timeline is this... if they have already engaged the Federation in war or are infected by the Sec31 plague then they are doomed as their ability to infiltrate is removed.

Overall the changelings have proven very succesful at infiltration and from Rebels and the films we know Imperial security is terrible for preventing even people who are not magic shape shifters from wandering onto their bases. The changelings also benefit from the fact the Empire is going to be falling apart within the next few years, replacing Palpatine is not required as it would pose a signficant threat to them seeing as he would have magic powers to detect them, they simply have to build up their influence so that once the New Republic takes control they have a much easier time steering that to their aims.

The changelings have an excellent starting position, a captured ship to infiltrate agents, presumably a captive crew and data banks to provide informaiton to allow for an effective integration into society and complete ignorance of their abiltiy to shapeshift and replace individuals by their targets

Main problem they will face is if more SW ships detect the wormhole before they are established... I think they could address this by simply infiltrating the local military or civil shipping organisation and get the area tagged as a navigational hazard... the risk will be seeing as a ship went straight through it that this is a busy route for the SW side so discovery might be almost immediate... in which case the Dominion resources ST side are toast and infiltration becomes a tool of hiding rather than one of conquest. Only real threat after this is force users being able to detect them, but seeing as Palpatine and Vader are only two individuals and the Inquisition seems to have been severely reduced by this point this might not be such a massive risk... until they try walking into the senate chamber.

Overall the main problem is the SW galaxy is so much vaster than the Dominion in terms of population and industry that there is no medium term hope even with complete success at infiltrating the leadership of the Empire/Republic that they could reduce it to a client state of the Dominion... it will take centuries for the Dominion to absorb SW tech for use its side of the wormhole and start building up numbers for a more active role in the SW galaxy... centuries in which discovery of the infiltration is almost guaranteed. Best they can hope for is to simply keep the Empire from discovering the wormhole and absorb the technology whilst presumably helping the Rebels destroy the centralised government or atleast keeping the civil war going. I don't think there is any chance of Vorta being brought in to administer SW worlds for a few millenia... but seeing as the Founders are so long lived such a long term plan might not be an issue, their technology advances from being able to access SW tech and potentially even resources if they can risk sending transports back through the wormhole to supply the Dominion a kcik start on producing its own SW level tech will give them complete control of the Milky Way... after a few millenia of development they would have the numbers to actively conquer the SW galaxy, especially if by this point their infiltration has left the SW side weak and disunited under a loose Republic rule.
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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-04-04 07:36am

They don't have to turn the Empire or post-Empire galaxy into a client state of the Dominion... but they can still rule the Empire/SW Galaxy without the Dominion overtly conquering the Empire. Like, if they replaced the post-Palpatine leadership or the New Republic's Mon Mothras, then technically they'll rule the galaxy even if they cannot blow their cover by proclaiming a public ordnance that officially has the galaxy as a Dominion colonial property. Like, if a Sith can long-game and take over the galaxy, then changelings can. Barring Jedi detection and if destabilization and incompetence are rife? Sure. It's not a question of gigajoules. It's a question of politics and infiltration.
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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-04 05:03pm

Darth Tanner wrote:At what point in the ST timeline is this... if they have already engaged the Federation in war or are infected by the Sec31 plague then they are doomed as their ability to infiltrate is removed.


Oh yea, no plague. Post cure, no virus in the picture.


Overall the changelings have proven very succesful at infiltration and from Rebels and the films we know Imperial security is terrible for preventing even people who are not magic shape shifters from wandering onto their bases. The changelings also benefit from the fact the Empire is going to be falling apart within the next few years, replacing Palpatine is not required as it would pose a signficant threat to them seeing as he would have magic powers to detect them, they simply have to build up their influence so that once the New Republic takes control they have a much easier time steering that to their aims.


Here's a thought though- Will the Changelings want the Empire to collapse? It's a police state with a security apparatus that suits their purposes well, while the Rebellion is looking to form a much less centralized republic (heck, in TFA they even have rotating capitals for the purpose of diffusing power!). They could view throwing the Rebellion under the bus a good way to advance the position of their ages, and even replacing Mon Mothma could just lead to a lot of people leaving the alliance if they try and form a new centralized state with her and the other Rebel leadership. They may view succeeding Palpatine as a much superior option and the Rebels a threat to be eliminated.


Another thing to consider, a lot of the Changelings we saw are either their battlefield generals or probably their best agents. Other changelings may not have the experience as spies sent into the heart of AQ powers. Innate advantages, of course, but many may not be as clever or tricky. You'd want your best agents to be Martok or the like.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-04-04 06:20pm

Shape shifters exist in Star Wars but that is it from a movie lore standpoint.

A direct attack by a changeling seems like a very bad idea against Palpatine or Vader, assuming they could even get that close. The ability of force users at precognition is extremely sketchy to the point of being a crap shoot. The force danger sense however is considerably more sensitive, especially when someone is hostile.

A Founder is not going to know this given that knowledge of the Jedi and their abilities were poorly understood even when they were running around for thousands of years. Pre-Rogue One the purge has apparently reduced information to myths and superstitious religion. Even if the Founders were to take Vader and Palpatine seriously, the amount of bullshit circulating about the Force would make trying to figure out effective strategies impossible.

One fuck up by a Changeling and I would expect the same measures used by the Federation to detect Shape-Shifters to be deployed. With the amount of droids running around and the authoritative regime of the Empire, putting those measures in place to test Imperial forces should not be that difficult if sufficiently motivated. At the very least that would make the higher levels of the Empire difficult or impossible to infiltrate.

Do the Founders even have enough individuals to infiltrate on a galactic level ?

Slowly trying to integrate and infiltrate an entire galaxy worth of organisations could take a very long time. The chances of detection over that time rise to the point of being inevitable.
Trying to 'take over' an existing power or provoke them seems like a really stupid thing to do when a mistake could bring down an unprecedented hell.
It might be a lot simpler to sell out the ST galaxy in exchange for a better off position in the Empire.
The Empire could go in guns blazing but even Palpatine should see the merit in doing the same kind of deal the Dominion arranged with the Cardassians.

Sell out, join the Empire and act as the foothold the Empire can use to dominate all the other powers. Play it right, the Empire leaves the Founders to act as administrators much like they leave the Vorta. As long as they bow at the right times, the Founders could be left alone and happily watch solids kill each other until they are the only ones left standing and / or they gain the edge required to stop being a bitch to SW powers.


The Founders could become the new clone producers for the entire SW galaxy as slave labour or produce cannon fodder for the Empire that is fanatically loyal to Palpatine. Jem Hadar Stormtroopers would be fucking horrifying and the ST galaxy would make the perfect testing grounds to do whatever the Empire wanted before bringing the finished versions into their own galaxy.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby FaxModem1 » 2017-04-04 07:21pm

Honestly, I see the Founders climbing up the Imperial hierarchy, and making another front for the Empire's Civil War. Imagine if the Warlords from Legends all started rebelling around the same time, and the utter chaos the Empire would have to deal with?

That's very much the Founders playbook, take over a high official, probably not the one at the very top, but enough to put things on a path towards no longer being a threat. Taking over a lot of key positions in COMPNOR, or the ISB, and throwing them at each other would be just one possibility.
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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby FedRebel » 2017-04-04 10:02pm

Q99 wrote:A new wormhole is found right near the Founder homeworld connecting it to a Star Wars system in the mid areas- not core, not outer rim.


Inner Rim or Mid Rim? Ballpark the SW aperture, in the vicinity of...Naboo, etc.

A SW ship comes through and through luck and surprise, they manage to capture it partially intact and interrogate some of the crew.


I am assuming a small independent freighter.....

Jives with me assuming the Dominion interdicted a small independent freighter, after the Federation started commerce with Dominion members the Founders brought the smackdown (Odyssey Incident.) Likely any unknown freighter is being intercepted and boarded by Jem'Hadar at this timeframe.


The Dominion's primary avenues are diplomacy and infiltration. At a minimum they can place themselves in a position to establish commerce and acquire older civil grade weapons and defensive tech which would give them a slight boost

If they choose to gamble, Changeling infiltrators would sow misinformation that the Dominion is at parity and Super Battleships are exclusively deployed to facilitate the illusion

So they decide on a radical course of action- send much of their species, a million Changelings, in to try and subvert and take over the Empire if at all possible. Replace Emperor Palpatine by politics or directly replacing him (of course not knowing he's a Sith off the bat, though they can find out and re-evaluate plans accordingly), and try and make the Empire into a new buffer against Solids.

They start out one year before Rogue One.


Here's a fun thought...

The Dominion quietly sponsors the Rebellion.
Changelings infiltrate the Imperial Navy to the extent where patrols steer clear of the wormhole (flip-side they quietly co-opt Rebellion leadership.)
The Dominion "gives" the Rebels an instant army with Jem'Hadar cloning vats, plus use of the cloaking shroud in exchange for some "obsolete" weapon and shield infrastructure (and some Class 2 Hyperdrives)

Upto Skarif, Rogue One goes as normal.

When it comes to the Battle of Skarif, Jem'Hadar join the reinforcements beaming down en-mass before the shield gate closes.

The Imperial garrison is completely routed, the Vorta Handlers help themselves to the archives, the heroes get a copy of 'Stardust'

Admiral Raddus: We have to get that shield down to receive the plans
Jem'Hadar: No problem! *Super Battleship warp rams the shield gate*

Fkeet bugs out before the Devastator and DS arrive, The Jem'Hadar and Vorta "volunteer" to remain to cover the Rebel fleet's evacuation. Dominion transporters have impressive range (DS9 to Empok Nor, about a Parsec.)

Miraculously "Director Krennic" escaped and has returned to the Death Star much to Tarkin's annoyance, the DS fires to purge the Jem'Hadar entrenchments and deny further access to the archives (unaware that the Vorta cleaned house and beamed everything to a Dominion ship lurking in the next star system

All of a sudden the Dominion gets scarce from the Rebellion's ranks. "Director Krennic" provides the ISB with actionable intel to purge the Rebellion in very short order....and regained the prestige that Tarkin stripped when "Krennic" divines the Rebel Base.

The Empire stagnates in blissful ignorance of any threats, Changelings are in every position to keep the wormhole a secret and siphon infrastructure as needed.

Back in the Gamma Quadrant, The Dominion is building their own Death Stars

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-04 10:58pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:Shape shifters exist in Star Wars but that is it from a movie lore standpoint.

A direct attack by a changeling seems like a very bad idea against Palpatine or Vader, assuming they could even get that close. The ability of force users at precognition is extremely sketchy to the point of being a crap shoot. The force danger sense however is considerably more sensitive, especially when someone is hostile.


Though if they replaced enough soldiers in the area, swarming 'em is a possibility. Changelings aren't a match for a Sith, but they're still pretty dangerous.


One fuck up by a Changeling and I would expect the same measures used by the Federation to detect Shape-Shifters to be deployed. With the amount of droids running around and the authoritative regime of the Empire, putting those measures in place to test Imperial forces should not be that difficult if sufficiently motivated. At the very least that would make the higher levels of the Empire difficult or impossible to infiltrate.


Hm, the methods used were a blood test (which *is* spoofable we've seen, if pretty tricky to do so), and using auto-phasers to sweep rooms for changelings hiding as inorganics, which is tricky.

Do the Founders even have enough individuals to infiltrate on a galactic level ?


They did have that huge 'ocean'. Even if it's pretty shallow and not much beyond what we saw, I'd think they'd have a million+ pretty easy (there's a possibility that they have a gigantic population, but we'll still with a lower end).

Trying to 'take over' an existing power or provoke them seems like a really stupid thing to do when a mistake could bring down an unprecedented hell.
It might be a lot simpler to sell out the ST galaxy in exchange for a better off position in the Empire.
The Empire could go in guns blazing but even Palpatine should see the merit in doing the same kind of deal the Dominion arranged with the Cardassians.


Ah, but they know you should Never Trust the Solids, they wouldn't willingly put their survival in the hands of the solids... especially not if they find out that the Sith have reputations as untrustworthy even for Solids.

If Sidious saw them as a potential threat, he'd wipe them out regardless of deals.

The Founders, ideally, want to take the choice out of Solid's hands. Considering by the scenario staying hidden is consider to be highly unlikely, they'll want contact to be on their terms... and their initial intel tells them the Empire is a dangerous power. If you can't hide and you can't beat, well, for a changeling, subvert is the natural next option.

The Founders could become the new clone producers for the entire SW galaxy as slave labour or produce cannon fodder for the Empire that is fanatically loyal to Palpatine. Jem Hadar Stormtroopers would be fucking horrifying and the ST galaxy would make the perfect testing grounds to do whatever the Empire wanted before bringing the finished versions into their own galaxy.


However, this would involve giving Jem'hadar tech to Palpatine, and once he has them, does he really *need* a race of shapeshifters who can potentially turn on him around? If possible, he'd concentrate them in as few places as possible under excuses, kill them, and the Empire would milk the 'changeling menace' of the stragglers for the next several lifetimes.



FedRebel wrote:Inner Rim or Mid Rim? Ballpark the SW aperture, in the vicinity of...Naboo, etc.


Inner Rim, in an area high traffic enough that covering up for too long would be tricky even with shenanigans done.

Miraculously "Director Krennic" escaped and has returned to the Death Star much to Tarkin's annoyance, the DS fires to purge the Jem'Hadar entrenchments and deny further access to the archives (unaware that the Vorta cleaned house and beamed everything to a Dominion ship lurking in the next star system

All of a sudden the Dominion gets scarce from the Rebellion's ranks. "Director Krennic" provides the ISB with actionable intel to purge the Rebellion in very short order....and regained the prestige that Tarkin stripped when "Krennic" divines the Rebel Base.

The Empire stagnates in blissful ignorance of any threats, Changelings are in every position to keep the wormhole a secret and siphon infrastructure as needed.

Back in the Gamma Quadrant, The Dominion is building their own Death Stars


Pretty good plan to gain a good position, though I don't think they have the industry to build a Death Star in any reasonable timeframe.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Solauren » 2017-04-18 05:03pm

The dominion wouldn't need a 'reasonable time frame'. So long as they can keep the wormhole a secret from everyone else, they can take their time, tool up.


Also, in Legends at least, we have several examples of people doing 'back water' builds of a Death Star, and it working just fine.

i.e Death Star Prototype in Maw Installation, and the Penstar alignment creating Death Star III (IIRC). The Dominion should be able to do that once they 'tech up'.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-18 05:46pm

Solauren wrote:The dominion wouldn't need a 'reasonable time frame'. So long as they can keep the wormhole a secret from everyone else, they can take their time, tool up.


Also, in Legends at least, we have several examples of people doing 'back water' builds of a Death Star, and it working just fine.

i.e Death Star Prototype in Maw Installation, and the Penstar alignment creating Death Star III (IIRC). The Dominion should be able to do that once they 'tech up'.



I'm placing the wormhole in a position where keeping it a secret is something they can do for maybe years, not indefinitely, and I'd also hazard that teching up would take decades (gaining the expertise takes many years, for starters, and then it has to be passed along).

The Death Star 3 was something of a bluff (the Pentastar purposefully used it in a sacrifice play after all) and made from a 'worldcraft' the Empire did most of the construction work on, the Darksaber (another attempt) didn't work, and the Maw, while hidden, was a facility with the Empire's best and brightest and with lots of resources.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Darth Tanner » 2017-04-19 04:30am

Q99 wrote:I'm placing the wormhole in a position where keeping it a secret is something they can do for maybe years, not indefinitely,


See I'd see this issue in reverse, detection of the wormhole depends on someone stumbling across it early, the longer the dominion has to infiltrate the local military or civil administration the better their chances of getting it flagged as a navigational hazard or military testing ground ect and the issue goes away. Detection of the wormhole is a game loser for the Dominion assuming they dont do the bizarre plan of abandoning the Gamma Quadrent and hiding out amongst the SW galaxy.

The Bajoran wormhole went undetected for millenia in direct proximity to major space faring races.
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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-19 08:33am

Darth Tanner wrote:See I'd see this issue in reverse, detection of the wormhole depends on someone stumbling across it early, the longer the dominion has to infiltrate the local military or civil administration the better their chances of getting it flagged as a navigational hazard or military testing ground ect and the issue goes away. Detection of the wormhole is a game loser for the Dominion assuming they dont do the bizarre plan of abandoning the Gamma Quadrent and hiding out amongst the SW galaxy.

The Bajoran wormhole went undetected for millenia in direct proximity to major space faring races.


I'm putting it on a trade route major enough that people won't just stop-using it.

Also, because otherwise the situation would be more boring.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Darth Tanner » 2017-04-19 09:10am

Q99 wrote:I'm putting it on a trade route major enough that people won't just stop-using it.

Also, because otherwise the situation would be more boring.


Space is big, the local commerce guild saying stay 5,000,000km away from this space hazard and putting a beacon there is not going to stop a trade route that is probably hundreds of light years wide. Otherwise how has the wormhole gone undiscovered for the hundreds of thousands of years of space travel prior to it.
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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-19 10:44am

Because the Wormhole just formed. And it has, uh, gravity pulsating thingies that intermittently hyperspace something or other.

Anyway, they've got years of secrecy, but not indefinitely.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Solauren » 2017-04-21 09:46pm

Now, the question is, can the dominion COLLAPSE the wormhole if need be?

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-21 10:04pm

Nope- Let's say it's the first thing they try, because not-facing the empire > taking a risk of facing it.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby FaxModem1 » 2017-04-21 10:41pm

Question, can a force user be alerted to danger while sleeping? Even Palpatine sleeps, and it would seem to be the best time to take him out.
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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-04-21 11:09pm

FaxModem1 wrote:Question, can a force user be alerted to danger while sleeping? Even Palpatine sleeps, and it would seem to be the best time to take him out.


Given that Darth Plageuis was murdered in his sleep by his apprentice/Sidious, I would assume not, though that may have been a special case with Sidious, as another Force user, being able to mask himself to this danger-sense (something we know he was able to do, since in the Prequels he's in close proximity to many of the most powerful known Jedi (Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin etc) with nary a suspicion being raised).
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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-22 01:44am

Yea, Sidious was really, really good at hiding himself, and managed to catch an awake council member off-guard.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Imperial528 » 2017-04-22 02:15pm

From my understanding, though I haven't read the novel about Plageuis, the key element in Palpatine's assassination of him is that Plageuis had grown complacent, or worse, trusted Palpatine.

The last people Sith can trust are each other. It's outright in the Rule of Two.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby seanrobertson » 2017-04-22 02:56pm

Imperial528 wrote:From my understanding, though I haven't read the novel about Plageuis, the key element in Palpatine's assassination of him is that Plageuis had grown complacent, or worse, trusted Palpatine.


Very true. Plus, IIRC, Sidious got his master drunk as well.
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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Solauren » 2017-04-24 11:12am

seanrobertson wrote:
Imperial528 wrote:From my understanding, though I haven't read the novel about Plageuis, the key element in Palpatine's assassination of him is that Plageuis had grown complacent, or worse, trusted Palpatine.


Very true. Plus, IIRC, Sidious got his master drunk as well.


And Plageuis was using a breath-mask, which was the first thing Sidious targetted. That wasn't a DIRECT threat to Plageius.

And he was used to being around Palpatine when he tossed lighting, so that might not have set off his danger sense.

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Re: The Founders vs the Empire

Postby Q99 » 2017-04-24 01:53pm

Some of the highest skilled changelings can even turn into fire somehow, so they're pretty dangerous.


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