How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

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How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby DarthPooky » 2017-01-10 01:33am

Just as the title Sayed how do you think Rogue One effects the debate. What do the Trekkies who think the feds or any other mainstream trek faction can win have to say. I know they will pick on the hole Kyber crystal superlaser thing but is there anything else you guys saw that my change some things.

There will be spoilers in this thread so if you haven't seen the movie by now WHATS WRONG WITH YOU GO SEE IT ITS AMAZING :D .

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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Lord Revan » 2017-01-10 02:04am

Honestly there's probably little to no real effect, what remains of the rabid trekkie side is more or less preaching to the choir and might not even know Rogue One exists and the rabid warsie side seems to be even more dead them they.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-01-10 10:18am

There's not much debate left.

The main points, I suppose:

--Death Star demonstrates two things, low-power shots and the ability to penetrate planetary shields. Arguably it demonstrates a third, accuracy, if you think that it shot the dish off the Scarif archives tower on purpose...

--Hyperspace travel is *fast*. The Rebels deploy a fighter-bomber strike onto Eadu pretty quickly after Cassian Andor tells them that Galen Erso is there, while he's en route. They can't have taken more than a few hours' travel time, and the implication is that the X-wings and Y-wings arrive only a couple hours after Andor's U-wing crashes on Eadu (it would have taken awhile for Jyn Erso to get to the base of that tower and climb all the way up to the landing pad). We already knew this thanks to Palpatine's shuttle arriving at Mustafar pretty fast, but it's nice to have corrobating proof.

--Star Destroyers can hover pretty close to the surface of a planet. Useful if you want to deploy that level of firepower up close and personal. As far as I know, Klingon ships are the only ones we've seen with this capability, perhaps Jem'Hadar and Breen? (talking full size starships of course, not shuttles or runabouts)
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-01-10 10:21am

On the other hand:

--X-Wing and Y-Wing strafing is pitifully powered. A Y-Wing's bomb lands right next to Galen Erso and Krennic. Galen lives long enough for last words and Erso survives.

--Death Star uses unique power generations and kyber crystals to ampfly their output. You can't scale directly down from it for firepower calcs.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-01-10 10:38am

Crazedwraith wrote:On the other hand:

--X-Wing and Y-Wing strafing is pitifully powered. A Y-Wing's bomb lands right next to Galen Erso and Krennic. Galen lives long enough for last words and Erso survives.


You mean Krennic survives, surely? Or that Jyn survives?
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-01-10 10:44am

Elheru Aran wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:On the other hand:

--X-Wing and Y-Wing strafing is pitifully powered. A Y-Wing's bomb lands right next to Galen Erso and Krennic. Galen lives long enough for last words and Erso survives.


You mean Krennic survives, surely? Or that Jyn survives?


The first. Apologies for the typo.

Krennic and Galen Erso are extremely close the the blast. Galen Erso dies shortly afterwards but Krennic survives.

I've forgotten how close Jyn Erso was to that blast actually.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-01-10 11:14am

She gets blown across the landing pad, IIRC, and almost goes down a crater. But yeah, still pretty abysmal results for a bang like that.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby RogueIce » 2017-01-10 12:23pm

It puts to rest, definitively, that they can't do planetary shields. Sure, Starkiller Base should have done that, but I'm sure people probably tried to play that up as "found tech from the Ancients" or whatever, along with the Hyperspace Gun itself - even though every ancillary source makes it clear the First Order built it off of existing Imperial research. Probably some of Galen Erso's own work, now that we have the context of Rogue One.

Speaking of which, Erso made it clear that even without him, they were going to finish the superlaser anyway. So none of that 'lone genius that can never be replicated' crap here.

Other than seeing what a "single reactor" Death Star shot can do, there's not much else. I mean, you can rag on the bombing run but it's not like it would cancel out any higher showings from other sources that may be out there. For all we know they were using the equivalent of cluster bombs on that run, while other battles had them using bunker busters or the like. It's not definitive.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Iroscato » 2017-01-10 12:41pm

Elheru Aran wrote:She gets blown across the landing pad, IIRC, and almost goes down a crater. But yeah, still pretty abysmal results for a bang like that.

Plot shields: protecting our brave heroes, since The Epic of Gilgamesh. Accept no substitutes.

:P
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby DarthPooky » 2017-01-11 05:20pm

Honestly there's probably little to no real effect, what remains of the rabid trekkie side is more or less preaching to the choir and might not even know Rogue One exists and the rabid warsie side seems to be even more dead them they.


I meant the last holdouts in and debate. Also when I refer to the debate I tend to include the times it often comes up in casual conversation whether in real life or on the internet. As an aside I heard Darkstar didn't like Rogue One is he still around on the internet as in one of the last holdouts so to speak?

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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-01-11 05:41pm

DarthPooky wrote:
Honestly there's probably little to no real effect, what remains of the rabid trekkie side is more or less preaching to the choir and might not even know Rogue One exists and the rabid warsie side seems to be even more dead them they.


I meant the last holdouts in and debate. Also when I refer to the debate I tend to include the times it often comes up in casual conversation whether in real life or on the internet. As an aside I heard Darkstar didn't like Rogue One is he still around on the internet as in one of the last holdouts so to speak?


The debate is dead; it's passed out of pop culture for the most part. Its heyday was the early 00's, back when the prequels were fresh. Since then, both Trek and Wars entered major lulls-- Wars a period of gradual, toxic EU dribbles, and Trek a spate of lousy films and a halfhearted show in Enterprise.

There might be sparks on Reddit and a few other places, but honestly, nobody cares anymore, even the geeks.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-11 07:25pm

Crazedwraith wrote:On the other hand:

--X-Wing and Y-Wing strafing is pitifully powered. A Y-Wing's bomb lands right next to Galen Erso and Krennic. Galen lives long enough for last words and Erso survives.

--Death Star uses unique power generations and kyber crystals to ampfly their output. You can't scale directly down from it for firepower calcs.


The torpedo performance was embarrassing. By all rights, they should have been able to glass the base and everything for a few miles around with that one hit, going off of the old numbers. Unless we presume they were using weaker munitions to prevent collateral damage, which I suppose is possible.

But on the plus side for Star Wars debaters... wasn't their a Trek argument, back in the day, that the Death Star blast worked by means other than raw firepower, such as a chain reaction? Shouldn't the detailed footage of the blasts undermine that?
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby hunter5 » 2017-01-12 06:38am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:On the other hand:

--X-Wing and Y-Wing strafing is pitifully powered. A Y-Wing's bomb lands right next to Galen Erso and Krennic. Galen lives long enough for last words and Erso survives.

--Death Star uses unique power generations and kyber crystals to ampfly their output. You can't scale directly down from it for firepower calcs.


The torpedo performance was embarrassing. By all rights, they should have been able to glass the base and everything for a few miles around with that one hit, going off of the old numbers. Unless we presume they were using weaker munitions to prevent collateral damage, which I suppose is possible.

But on the plus side for Star Wars debaters... wasn't their a Trek argument, back in the day, that the Death Star blast worked by means other than raw firepower, such as a chain reaction? Shouldn't the detailed footage of the blasts undermine that?

I was under the impression that they loaded up the fighters with anti personnel weapons to assainate Jyn's father

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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Thanas » 2017-01-12 08:07am

DarthPooky wrote:Just as the title Sayed how do you think Rogue One effects the debate. What do the Trekkies who think the feds or any other mainstream trek faction can win have to say. I know they will pick on the hole Kyber crystal superlaser thing but is there anything else you guys saw that my change some things.

There will be spoilers in this thread so if you haven't seen the movie by now WHATS WRONG WITH YOU GO SEE IT ITS AMAZING :D .


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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Iroscato » 2017-01-12 09:15am

Thanas wrote:
DarthPooky wrote:Just as the title Sayed how do you think Rogue One effects the debate. What do the Trekkies who think the feds or any other mainstream trek faction can win have to say. I know they will pick on the hole Kyber crystal superlaser thing but is there anything else you guys saw that my change some things.

There will be spoilers in this thread so if you haven't seen the movie by now WHATS WRONG WITH YOU GO SEE IT ITS AMAZING :D .


Are you dyslexic?

Possibly, he strikes me more as simply being quite young. I find his upbeat posting quite refreshing from us jaded old bastards ;)

As to the OP - the debate is done with, any holdouts on the Trek side are simply "extremists" comparable to crearionists in their inability to admit defeat and accept reality, and also take this shit waaaaaay too seriously.
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Juubi Karakuchi » 2017-01-12 09:21am

hunter5 wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:On the other hand:

--X-Wing and Y-Wing strafing is pitifully powered. A Y-Wing's bomb lands right next to Galen Erso and Krennic. Galen lives long enough for last words and Erso survives.

--Death Star uses unique power generations and kyber crystals to ampfly their output. You can't scale directly down from it for firepower calcs.


The torpedo performance was embarrassing. By all rights, they should have been able to glass the base and everything for a few miles around with that one hit, going off of the old numbers. Unless we presume they were using weaker munitions to prevent collateral damage, which I suppose is possible.

But on the plus side for Star Wars debaters... wasn't their a Trek argument, back in the day, that the Death Star blast worked by means other than raw firepower, such as a chain reaction? Shouldn't the detailed footage of the blasts undermine that?

I was under the impression that they loaded up the fighters with anti personnel weapons to assainate Jyn's father


That was kind of what I was thinking. Also, if I remember correctly, his death takes place out on the landing platform, so some of the blast may have gone straight through.

I can only think of two interconnected explanations as to why they would use reduced firepower. One is that they knew (or thought it very likely) that Rebel agents were on the ground, and did not consider them expendable. The other is that they didn't want to be known as crazed nuclear terrorists. The Rebel Alliance seems to take its 'good guy' image very seriously, to the point where they were willing to kick whole groups out for crossing the line. Nuking Eadu (when a few conventional bombs would do the job just as well) would be making life very easy for Imperial propagandists.

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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-01-12 09:27am

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:I can only think of two interconnected explanations as to why they would use reduced firepower. One is that they knew (or thought it very likely) that Rebel agents were on the ground, and did not consider them expendable. The other is that they didn't want to be known as crazed nuclear terrorists. The Rebel Alliance seems to take its 'good guy' image very seriously, to the point where they were willing to kick whole groups out for crossing the line. Nuking Eadu (when a few conventional bombs would do the job just as well) would be making life very easy for Imperial propagandists.


They didn't know there were Rebels in the area. Blue Leader tries to call off the strike, entirely when Cassian calls in his position. But it's explicitly said it's too late they've already engaged.

Eadu is an isolated outpost out in bumfuck nowhere. There's no indication there's anything there other the legit military target research base building the planet killing superweapon.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby hunter5 » 2017-01-12 02:20pm

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
hunter5 wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
The torpedo performance was embarrassing. By all rights, they should have been able to glass the base and everything for a few miles around with that one hit, going off of the old numbers. Unless we presume they were using weaker munitions to prevent collateral damage, which I suppose is possible.

But on the plus side for Star Wars debaters... wasn't their a Trek argument, back in the day, that the Death Star blast worked by means other than raw firepower, such as a chain reaction? Shouldn't the detailed footage of the blasts undermine that?

I was under the impression that they loaded up the fighters with anti personnel weapons to assainate Jyn's father


That was kind of what I was thinking. Also, if I remember correctly, his death takes place out on the landing platform, so some of the blast may have gone straight through.

I can only think of two interconnected explanations as to why they would use reduced firepower. One is that they knew (or thought it very likely) that Rebel agents were on the ground, and did not consider them expendable. The other is that they didn't want to be known as crazed nuclear terrorists. The Rebel Alliance seems to take its 'good guy' image very seriously, to the point where they were willing to kick whole groups out for crossing the line. Nuking Eadu (when a few conventional bombs would do the job just as well) would be making life very easy for Imperial propagandists.

Anti personnel weapons would explain why the platform was even left intact after taking a direct hit

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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby RogueIce » 2017-01-12 03:38pm

Elheru Aran wrote:The debate is dead; it's passed out of pop culture for the most part. Its heyday was the early 00's, back when the prequels were fresh. Since then, both Trek and Wars entered major lulls-- Wars a period of gradual, toxic EU dribbles, and Trek a spate of lousy films and a halfhearted show in Enterprise.

There might be sparks on Reddit and a few other places, but honestly, nobody cares anymore, even the geeks.

If we're going on that, then maybe if ST: Discovery takes off (unlikely, but you never know) and with Disney making a new SW movie every year, maybe it'll get interest back. Not that it matters too much unless the new ST show goes nuts with the effects budget.

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
hunter5 wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
The torpedo performance was embarrassing. By all rights, they should have been able to glass the base and everything for a few miles around with that one hit, going off of the old numbers. Unless we presume they were using weaker munitions to prevent collateral damage, which I suppose is possible.

But on the plus side for Star Wars debaters... wasn't their a Trek argument, back in the day, that the Death Star blast worked by means other than raw firepower, such as a chain reaction? Shouldn't the detailed footage of the blasts undermine that?

I was under the impression that they loaded up the fighters with anti personnel weapons to assainate Jyn's father


That was kind of what I was thinking. Also, if I remember correctly, his death takes place out on the landing platform, so some of the blast may have gone straight through.

I can only think of two interconnected explanations as to why they would use reduced firepower. One is that they knew (or thought it very likely) that Rebel agents were on the ground, and did not consider them expendable. The other is that they didn't want to be known as crazed nuclear terrorists. The Rebel Alliance seems to take its 'good guy' image very seriously, to the point where they were willing to kick whole groups out for crossing the line. Nuking Eadu (when a few conventional bombs would do the job just as well) would be making life very easy for Imperial propagandists.

On Rebels, scoring proton bombs is a big deal for them. And back in the OT ICS - albeit this is Legends now - they only equipped the fighters over Yavin with a pair of torpedoes each because they were in short supply.

If heavier ordnance is difficult to come by - which makes plenty of sense - they may limit it to when you absolutely, positively need something big blown up. If lesser but easier to acquire munitions can do the job, and blasting a dude on a landing pad doesn't exactly require nuclear weapons, they'd be equipped with those.

And anyway, who cares? If we've seen fighter-scale ordnance make bigger booms before, Rogue One does not invalidate that, it just means they used something different for this mission. It's like pulling up videos of F-15s making different sized explosions just means that *gasp* there's more than one type of bomb in the world
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-01-12 04:04pm

RogueIce wrote:And anyway, who cares? If we've seen fighter-scale ordnance make bigger booms before, Rogue One does not invalidate that, it just means they used something different for this mission. It's like pulling up videos of F-15s making different sized explosions just means that *gasp* there's more than one type of bomb in the world


ST's low showings get harped on about endlessly. I see no reason not to give SW the same treatment.

All these excuses are basically hogwash. If lasers pump out kilotons in standard operation. They've got no reason not to vape whole facility.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby RogueIce » 2017-01-12 04:13pm

Crazedwraith wrote:ST's low showings get harped on about endlessly. I see no reason not to give SW the same treatment.

Well obviously there would need to be details on that, which this thread is not about, but ultimately I prefer to take a more holistic view. But that's just me. I think it's bullshit to just take the low and ignore the high, unless you can explicitly justify it.

All these excuses are basically hogwash. If lasers pump out kilotons in standard operation. They've got no reason not to vape whole facility.

But they're not hogwash. They wanted one of their operatives within blaster rifle range to take out the target. You're not going to use mini-nukes when you know one of your guys is within the blast zone. And I'm talking about Cassian here, not Jyn being on the landing pad, because Cassian being there was part of the plan. The Y-wings were a backup to him.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-01-12 05:01pm

RogueIce wrote:But they're not hogwash. They wanted one of their operatives within blaster rifle range to take out the target. You're not going to use mini-nukes when you know one of your guys is within the blast zone. And I'm talking about Cassian here, not Jyn being on the landing pad, because Cassian being there was part of the plan. The Y-wings were a backup to him.


No. Cassian was there without orders. By the time he radioed in his position (that he was there) it was too late to call off the Y-Wing strike because they were already engaged.

The General/Blue Leader wanted to call off the strike because of the operative's presence. Y-Wings are not a sensible back up. If anything you'd want troops to back up your pitiful bombing strike to confirm/finish off the kill.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby RogueIce » 2017-01-13 12:12am

Crazedwraith wrote:No. Cassian was there without orders. By the time he radioed in his position (that he was there) it was too late to call off the Y-Wing strike because they were already engaged.

The General/Blue Leader wanted to call off the strike because of the operative's presence. Y-Wings are not a sensible back up. If anything you'd want troops to back up your pitiful bombing strike to confirm/finish off the kill.

He went with a sniper rifle, he was absolutely there on orders. The secret orders he was given to assassinate Galen, given by the General on his way out of Yavin. They only tried calling it off because Jyn was going up on the platform itself, but Cassian was totally meant to snipe Galen.

I honestly can't remember why the Y-wings were sent. Part of me says it's because they crashed and the strike was sent as a Plan B, but they were still able to communicate with Yavin in trying to call off the strike when Cassian saw Jyn so that doesn't seem likely, and may be confusing things with Scarif.

Basically I can't recall in sufficient detail why Cassian was being sent to snipe Galen but at the same time the Alliance sent Y-wings out to bomb the base. Probably just to ensure Galen bought it? In any event, the General definitely knew Cassian would be in rifle range, because I do distinctly remember him pulling Cassian aside and telling him it was a kill mission, not a rescue. Which would likely have influenced the kind of ordnance the Y-wings would be carrying.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-01-13 03:13am

I only saw the film once so I may be wrong but I'd already heard about that scene beforehand and paid special attention.

You may be right I may go misremembering. Cassian may only have been calling in Jyn's position at ground zero rather than his own. What it was it certainly wasnt taken into account for the attack.

It seems incredulous that starfighters have a switch to dial down their guns to a fraction of a percent of their max put put though.
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Re: How does Rogue One efect the vs debate

Postby Lord Revan » 2017-01-13 03:49am

It was definetly Jyn whose position was called, Cassian was on the ridge near the facility (same ridge were Chirrut and Baze were just further up), also it might not matter but the craft used in Eadu were all X-wings not a single Y-wing was present at attack.

It seems incredulous that starfighters have a switch to dial down their guns to a fraction of a percent of their max put put though.
It's not that odd, after all if they can do that you won't need dedicated ground support craft because your fighters can engage trooops and vehicles near your own assets without risk of destroying them thru collateral damage. after all nuclear level firepower is gonna have massive collateral damage so you really can't use that too close to your own assets. Hell nuclear bombs have a (leathal) blast radius that's kilometers, you kind of want something that's smaller then that, unless you are willing to give yourself a massive achilles heel of having no air support once the enemy is closer then the blast radius of your massive overkill bombs.

If I inputted the values correctly even a 1Kt bomb gives a "near total" fatality rate from as far as almost 300 meters that's around the effective combat range of most rifles and that's just "near total" range the "wide spead destruction" and "3rd degree burns" radii both being around 700 meters or so and those numbers go up fast. You would most definetly want something smaller then that.
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