Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby FaxModem1 » 2016-09-01 03:35pm

Is there any reason that they didn't do this, then? Anakin would have surely benefited from a cloned arm during the Clone Wars. Is there a reason Luke didn't receive a clone one between Empire Strikes Back and Force Awakens? Why has Grevious resorted to a mechanical shell and not received the rest of his body from some cloners?

Cloning, in the new Canon, seems to take however long it takes, with the person needing to need a decade to learn everything and mature, even at an accelerated rate. And there are defective products, as 99 showed us, who age too quickly.

A new arm or heart wouldn't need an education, but the cloners on Kamino seem to need a period of time to cook up a person, and assuming that they can make a part without needing to make the whole person. Can they craft, say, a lung just by itself?

If that's the case, where are Vader's spiffy new lungs so that he doesn't need a rebreather and suit to keep him alive? Or is it not covered under the Sith health plan?

If Star Wars has the potential for it, they don't seem to use it.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-09-01 03:46pm

Back in legendaries there was mention (in the Medstart Duology which is probably one the few times SW medtech is shown in detail) that some people reject even clone tissue, but as far as I know there's nothing said in current canon.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Elheru Aran » 2016-09-01 04:07pm

As for Vader: It is indeed a puzzle why they didn't go that route for him.

One surmise may be that due to the all-over-char-broil treatment, his nerve endings may have been too damaged to interface with new organs. Cybernetic replacements on the other hand might be more coarse (though Luke's bionic hand seems to be capable of pretty decent fine motor control) and not require as fine a connection as flesh to flesh.

Alternatively: It's no secret that cloning has often been speculated to have issues when it comes to the Force. It may have been that cloned limbs would have no midi-chlorians (or whatever) and thus Anakin's Force powers would have been further depleted. Silly idea, obviously.

More seriously: the Dark Side can use pain to its gain. Palpatine may have decided that he simply didn't have time for Vader to receive cloned limbs, and that the pain of living and dealing with cybernetic replacements would increase his power in the Dark Side; this is more or less outright stated in the old EU, which does include Boba Fett wanting to purchase cloned lungs to replace his own damaged lungs. The only impediment there seemed to have been one of cost and legality.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Batman » 2016-09-01 04:29pm

The cybernetic limbs wouldn't have any more midichlorians than cloned ones (if there's Force-using droids in the old EU I never ran across them) so that's a wash either way and the material is pretty consistent about that a clone DOES need a decade to reach adulthood. Whether or not they can do faster for body parts is anyone's guess, leave alone how much faster. Given that Anakin needed them pretty much yesterday even a time vastly lower than a decade might have been too long.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-09-01 06:18pm

there's also the fact that once Anakin/vader was sealed into the suit, removing it to the extent needed to replace the cybernetics posed a signifigant risk of killing Vader in the process, basically you couldn't used clone tissue for the orginal surgery as there was no time to clone anything (Vader was essentially alive only due to his force abilities) and after that it was deemed that that risk of Vader dying on the table was too great for the potential benefits.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Q99 » 2016-09-04 04:35pm

Star Trek IV.

Old Lady: "The doctor gave me a pill and I grew a new kidney! The doctor gave me a pill and I grew a new kidney!"
20th century doctor 1: "Fully functional?"
20th century doctor 2: "Fully functional!"


Though that seems the only time organ replacement is *that* easy!

Zor wrote:Replicators would be pretty damn useful. Sure they can't make a perfect souffle and Admiral Ackbar's chef cousin can prepare better space sushi, but they could be useful for increasing the menu options on a Star Destroyer or making replacement electrical insulation and similar replacement parts in the field.

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Replicators will destroy and re-create the galaxy's economy.

Consider Tatooine, where moisture farming is a huge industry. So much of Tatooine's economy is based on it being, well, a desert. With replicators? Living on a desert planet isn't so hard. A single small replicator can alleviate, not all the problems, but many of the problems that come from living in small resource-poor settlements,

Anywhere with a replicator can make a droid, another big business. Even if, say, the brains are priority intellectual property and/or can't be replicated, 90% of their parts are straightforward so now droid companies would *only* need to manufacture brains and designs.

Ships with replicators can just *make* many kinds of replacement parts. Consider we see mechanics at pretty much every town and port in SW (and quite sensibly so!), you're probably talking tens of billions of technically skilled people losing/changing jobs on a low-end.

We see a good number of poor people in Star Wars, and being poor in that sense is downright hard with replicators around, considering basic food and clothing costs almost vanish. The Coruscant underworld transforms. Slavery likely decreases galaxy-wide- it's far easier for people to avoid debt slavery, and there's less call for several broad categories of slaves like labor slavery.

And for medical? Not only can replicators handle a lot of Trek medical tech, if they can replicate bacta too...

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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby FaxModem1 » 2016-09-06 02:27am

Lord Revan wrote:there's also the fact that once Anakin/vader was sealed into the suit, removing it to the extent needed to replace the cybernetics posed a signifigant risk of killing Vader in the process, basically you couldn't used clone tissue for the orginal surgery as there was no time to clone anything (Vader was essentially alive only due to his force abilities) and after that it was deemed that that risk of Vader dying on the table was too great for the potential benefits.


Could Vader never get out of his suit completely? I'm sure he could remove some of it while in his meditation chamber, as we saw his helmet removed in Empire Strikes Back. I'm sure holographic organs during the surgery will be something he can use as they quickly put in new ones. So, either the Empire couldn't do it, because it would be too hard to take apart Vader, but the Federation could. Or Palpatine is a dick about insurance premiums and didn't want to risk helping Vader, but the Empire can't make organic limbs, only robotic ones. They also can't do shit when it comes to restoring hair and scarring.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Q99 » 2016-09-06 06:12am

FaxModem1 wrote:Could Vader never get out of his suit completely? I'm sure he could remove some of it while in his meditation chamber, as we saw his helmet removed in Empire Strikes Back. I'm sure holographic organs during the surgery will be something he can use as they quickly put in new ones. So, either the Empire couldn't do it, because it would be too hard to take apart Vader, but the Federation could. Or Palpatine is a dick about insurance premiums and didn't want to risk helping Vader, but the Empire can't make organic limbs, only robotic ones. They also can't do shit when it comes to restoring hair and scarring.


He could remove the helmet, but even that only for a short time in a special chamber- remember how removing it in RotJ was a "But you'll die," thing.

Other parts were far more integrated. And notably, Anakin felt he could've improved on the design (his original bionic hand was the only part he'd worked on himself and he felt it was the most real-feeling), were he able to do so safely.

So, the Federation may be able to fix him up, but the Empire can't.

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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-09-06 04:29pm

Q99 wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:Could Vader never get out of his suit completely? I'm sure he could remove some of it while in his meditation chamber, as we saw his helmet removed in Empire Strikes Back. I'm sure holographic organs during the surgery will be something he can use as they quickly put in new ones. So, either the Empire couldn't do it, because it would be too hard to take apart Vader, but the Federation could. Or Palpatine is a dick about insurance premiums and didn't want to risk helping Vader, but the Empire can't make organic limbs, only robotic ones. They also can't do shit when it comes to restoring hair and scarring.


He could remove the helmet, but even that only for a short time in a special chamber- remember how removing it in RotJ was a "But you'll die," thing.

Other parts were far more integrated. And notably, Anakin felt he could've improved on the design (his original bionic hand was the only part he'd worked on himself and he felt it was the most real-feeling), were he able to do so safely.

So, the Federation may be able to fix him up, but the Empire can't.

we got to remember that Vader's organs are royally fucked up, it's not just his lungs pretty much all vital organs apart from the brains are unable to function without support.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby FaxModem1 » 2016-09-07 01:23am

What else of Vader was in need of repair and/or replacement? If he had access to Federation medicine, just how much of him would they have had to work on?
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-09-07 04:00am

FaxModem1 wrote:What else of Vader was in need of repair and/or replacement? If he had access to Federation medicine, just how much of him would they have had to work on?

New spine at the very least, we known that least parts of his spine is replaced with implants, his vocal cords are also gone for all intents and purposes (remember the weak labored voice Vader had at end of ROTJ), most of Vader's senses are mechinically assisted or replaced due to the damage to the organs, also it's not outright stated I suspect his heart is at the very least mechinically assisted as well.

and that's just the stuff I remember from the top of my head.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Q99 » 2016-09-07 06:51am

Lord Revan wrote:we got to remember that Vader's organs are royally fucked up, it's not just his lungs pretty much all vital organs apart from the brains are unable to function without support.


Yea. Heck, even with trek tech he may be stuck in a Pike chair.

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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-09-09 03:06am

Q99 wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:we got to remember that Vader's organs are royally fucked up, it's not just his lungs pretty much all vital organs apart from the brains are unable to function without support.


Yea. Heck, even with trek tech he may be stuck in a Pike chair.

possibly and I'm I wrong or is "wars" written "wras" in the title?
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Q99 » 2016-09-09 01:12pm

Lord Revan wrote:possibly and I'm I wrong or is "wars" written "wras" in the title?


So it appears.

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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Zor » 2016-09-16 12:00am

I believe that, to a degree, Vader's suit was made deliberately crude by Palpatine's Orders specifically to keep him in check.

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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Sgt_Artyom » 2016-09-16 12:57am

Zor wrote:I believe that, to a degree, Vader's suit was made deliberately crude by Palpatine's Orders specifically to keep him in check.

Zor


Pretty sure that came up in "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader", http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Lor ... arth_Vader.

If I recall correctly, I think the suit kept him in constant pain to help fuel his anger, strengthening his affinity with the dark side and to keep him from properly healing.

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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby FaxModem1 » 2016-09-16 01:02am

Zor wrote:I believe that, to a degree, Vader's suit was made deliberately crude by Palpatine's Orders specifically to keep him in check.

Zor


If that's the case, who would be a better model for Star Wars medical tech to analyze?

Also, guess the Sith really do have an awful health plan :lol:
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby DarthPooky » 2016-09-17 01:16am

Consider Tatooine, where moisture farming is a huge industry. So much of Tatooine's economy is based on it being, well, a desert. With replicators? Living on a desert planet isn't so hard. A single small replicator can alleviate, not all the problems, but many of the problems that come from living in small resource-poor settlements,


I'm not so sure remember a replicator needs the material's to make whatever it needs to make so to make water it would need water which defeats the hole purpose. For food since TGFFA doesn't have factories to make the organic slug that we think is the raw food stock I don't think they would end hunger in star wars. Unless they can use ordinary organic matter then that mite be diferent.

We see a good number of poor people in Star Wars, and being poor in that sense is downright hard with replicators around, considering basic food and clothing costs almost vanish. The Coruscant underworld transforms. Slavery likely decreases galaxy-wide- it's far easier for people to avoid debt slavery, and there's less call for several broad categories of slaves like labor slavery.


Anywhere with a replicator can make a droid, another big business. Even if, say, the brains are priority intellectual property and/or can't be replicated, 90% of their parts are straightforward so now droid companies would *only* need to manufacture brains and designs.

Ships with replicators can just *make* many kinds of replacement parts. Consider we see mechanics at pretty much every town and port in SW (and quite sensibly so!), you're probably talking tens of billions of technically skilled people losing/changing jobs on a low-end.

We see a good number of poor people in Star Wars, and being poor in that sense is downright hard with replicators around, considering basic food and clothing costs almost vanish. The Coruscant underworld transforms. Slavery likely decreases galaxy-wide- it's far easier for people to avoid debt slavery, and there's less call for several broad categories of slaves like labor slavery.

And for medical? Not only can replicators handle a lot of Trek medical tech, if they can replicate bacta too...

Again I don't think so there still would be a cost replicate stuff because of the obvious energy requirement's the cost of the material's and so on. As far as slavery they still would need to construct stuff just the same besides we see the federation constructing lots of stuff most notably ships. We also see that replicators cant replicate many things even simple organic compounds so to say replicators can make entire droids and any replacement part for a ship I find dubious.

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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-09-17 03:36am

replicators might change somethings but at least in the legendaries it was implied slave labor was at least partly a punishment for "misdeed" (read:opposing the Hutts or the Sith) and droids could do the work that organic slaves could and even more efficiently.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby FaxModem1 » 2016-09-17 03:10pm

DarthPooky wrote:
Consider Tatooine, where moisture farming is a huge industry. So much of Tatooine's economy is based on it being, well, a desert. With replicators? Living on a desert planet isn't so hard. A single small replicator can alleviate, not all the problems, but many of the problems that come from living in small resource-poor settlements,


I'm not so sure remember a replicator needs the material's to make whatever it needs to make so to make water it would need water which defeats the hole purpose. For food since TGFFA doesn't have factories to make the organic slug that we think is the raw food stock I don't think they would end hunger in star wars. Unless they can use ordinary organic matter then that mite be diferent.


The only time we ever see evidence of water being a scarcity in Trek is in the Voyager pilot, Caretaker. Though, this was with the Kazon, who did not create their warp technology, but were slaves of the Trabe, and overthrew them, and Neelix, who was a scavenger and was also rather primitive compared to Voyager. It should be noted that both the Trabe and the Kazon don't have access to transporters or replicators.

This is also the only time we have any evidence of there being huge water tanks on board a ship that aren't specifically meant for holding aquatic life forms.

So, we don't really have much evidence of a ship needing water to replicate a glass of water, storage of water, or other needs. To be fair, Voyager does install a garden in Cargo Bay 2 to offset oxygen generation and food production, but this was due to the replicators being offline at the time, and fears of their emergency rations running out.

Still, I'd imagine that a lot of people would not want to work for a 'quarter portion' when they can order a piece of cheesecake from their replicator instead.

We see a good number of poor people in Star Wars, and being poor in that sense is downright hard with replicators around, considering basic food and clothing costs almost vanish. The Coruscant underworld transforms. Slavery likely decreases galaxy-wide- it's far easier for people to avoid debt slavery, and there's less call for several broad categories of slaves like labor slavery.


Anywhere with a replicator can make a droid, another big business. Even if, say, the brains are priority intellectual property and/or can't be replicated, 90% of their parts are straightforward so now droid companies would *only* need to manufacture brains and designs.

Ships with replicators can just *make* many kinds of replacement parts. Consider we see mechanics at pretty much every town and port in SW (and quite sensibly so!), you're probably talking tens of billions of technically skilled people losing/changing jobs on a low-end.

We see a good number of poor people in Star Wars, and being poor in that sense is downright hard with replicators around, considering basic food and clothing costs almost vanish. The Coruscant underworld transforms. Slavery likely decreases galaxy-wide- it's far easier for people to avoid debt slavery, and there's less call for several broad categories of slaves like labor slavery.

And for medical? Not only can replicators handle a lot of Trek medical tech, if they can replicate bacta too...

Again I don't think so there still would be a cost replicate stuff because of the obvious energy requirement's the cost of the material's and so on. As far as slavery they still would need to construct stuff just the same besides we see the federation constructing lots of stuff most notably ships. We also see that replicators cant replicate many things even simple organic compounds so to say replicators can make entire droids and any replacement part for a ship I find dubious.


Geordi replicates replacement engine parts for other ships all the time on TNG, with the caveat that he needs to scan the engine part to have the computer replicate it, so droid parts might be required in order for them to duplicate them. It's also worth noting that two people, Chakotay and Janeway, with a few canisters donated from Voyager, were creating a rather comfortable home for themselves within weeks, with there being no huge tracts of farmland or crops to keep them fed.

It's also worth noting that the Enterprise-D was able to donate a replicator to an elderly couple's house, which is on its own power grid, because the rest of the planet is destroyed, in "The Survivors", with him offering to have Worf install it. It was about the size of a dishwasher, as you can see it here: Worf and Picard offer to install a replicator inside the house. Unless the old couple's house includes an equivalent of the Enterprise-D's power generation, replicators can be installed into households.

It's also worth noting that over the course of a day, the Enterprise-D transformed a Bajoran refugee camp with supplies, medicines, blankets, etc. in "Ensign Ro" in exchange for some information. It is worth noting that they didn't offer to install any replicators, whether because the Bajorans didn't have the power generation to do so, or because of political reasons(ie, the Prime Directive), is unknown.

Lord Revan wrote:replicators might change somethings but at least in the legendaries it was implied slave labor was at least partly a punishment for "misdeed" (read:opposing the Hutts or the Sith) and droids could do the work that organic slaves could and even more efficiently.


Didn't the Empire also use slave labor to build the Death Star? Do they have a logical reason for that, or was it a standing order from Palpatine because he was a Sith? Though, despotic regimes do that in Trek too. Sisko makes mention of how Terek Nor(Deep Space Nine) was built by Bajoran slave labor when Dukat wants to reclaim all 'Cardassian built property' in Deep Space Nine.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-09-17 03:22pm

the Death Star was built with wookiee slaves for punishment for their action after the clone wars (in legendaries that is) though the novel "Death Star" implied that it wasn't built exclusively with slaves and droids and convicts were used as well and there wasn't really any logical reason beyond a brutal way of punishment implied.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Elheru Aran » 2016-09-17 03:30pm

For replicating water, technically all you would really need is some way of combining hydrogen and oxygen in the appropriate proportion. We can even do that nowadays (though not quite as easily as they do on Trek, of course). Hydrogen is freely available in space; oxygen is likely in reasonably plentiful supply from the shipboard recyclers (at least I haven't watched any episode of Trek in recent memory where oxygen starvation was a problem).
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Simon_Jester » 2016-09-17 06:15pm

[Puts on mental arithmetic and high school chemistry hats]

Water is very dense compared to air, though. At room temperature, a mole* of air molecules takes up roughly 24 liters. About 20% of that is oxygen, call it 4.8 liters of oxygen gas, corresponding to 0.2 moles. A bit of multiplication gives us the result that 960 liters (about one cubic meter) of air should contain 40 times more oxygen, or eight moles of oxygen gas.

That's sixteen moles of oxygen atoms, since oxygen comes in two-atom molecules. That's in turn enough to make sixteen moles of water molecules, which will have a mass of 16*18.0 or about 288 grams.

So you would have to use up all the oxygen in a cubic meter of air to make 288 milliliters of water- enough to fill up a twelve ounce soda can about 4/5 of the way to the top. Synthesizing water from air is not a very good idea, especially since it will be difficult to get that oxygen back if you need it to breathe later. You might actually be better off storing oxygen as water and splitting it off by electrolysis (venting the hydrogen into space); this is less mass-efficient than storing pure liquid oxygen, but doesn't require a refrigerated tank.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby Batman » 2016-09-17 06:49pm

'Water' is freely available in space, no need to synthesize it. Just nab a comet, Plus we're already doing okay with recycling waste water and most of the water used by human stays water, it's just somewhat less clean than it was when it went into/onto us. Even without replicator technology to take the stuff apart, take out the contaminants, and reintegrate into water (a technology they rather obviously have by the 24th century) simple filtering should let them reuse the vast majority of their water many times over. Replicating the stuff other than from used water to clean it would be silly.
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Re: Applications of Federation tech in the Star Wras?

Postby FaxModem1 » 2016-09-18 04:50am

I wanted to note how effective dermal regenerators are, even in the hands of an amateur like Dukat, though he could be rather skilled, due to how sordid his personal history is.

Woman with scar

Dukat treats scar

Voila, scar is gone

I don't believe the Empire has anything like this, or at least not to this effect.
Image


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