Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

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Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Balrog » 2016-08-23 12:30am

Krall's entire fleet of drone-ships from Star Trek Beyond vs. an Imperial Star Destroyer (Disney canon or Legends canon). Fight takes place in orbit above the abandoned world as in Star Trek Beyond. Can Krall succeed in capturing/forcing the ISD down onto the planet's surface?
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Abacus » 2016-08-23 12:44am

How many drones were there?
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Patroklos » 2016-08-23 12:48am

No. Quite obviously. Like, why would anyone think otherwise?

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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby U.P. Cinnabar » 2016-08-23 01:39am

Patroklos wrote:No. Quite obviously. Like, why would anyone think otherwise?


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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby NecronLord » 2016-08-23 04:26am

Patroklos wrote:No. Quite obviously. Like, why would anyone think otherwise?

They had no issues flying straight through shields and we've seen boarding pods work several times in the clone wars.

Including burrowing through destroyer hulls to deliver soldiers.

It's an open question if Star Wars shields even protect against boarding pods, in the episode I link screencaps from there's no mention of Ventress having to drop the shields, and if you're familiar with Brian Young's work there is severe doubt that star wars ships stop smallcraft docking.



There are many examples of small craft attacking or docking with hostile ships in star wars, without the shields offering protection.

Kraal has, conservatively eyeballing it, thousands of them. Most likely tens or hundreds of thosuands. His soldiers are basically stormtroopers but equipped with a gun that has energy blasts that jump from one human to another.

The star destroyer doesn't have a reliable means to deal with them (note how effective small craft are in star wars) nor does it have enough fighters to destroy them. Nor have Imperial/Republic/Star Wars shields ever stopped a boarding pod to my knowledge. Kraal can put thousands of drones on board, and unlike usual star trek fare, his troops are highly credible, led by a group of MACOs and redoubtably protected these androids are not demonstrably inferior to say, Imperial Naval security or stormtroopers with smallarms.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby NecronLord » 2016-08-23 04:46am

Empire Magazine states that Kraal's final attack wave comprises a quarter million ships.

The swarm army commanded by Krall (Idris Elba) is a fearsome force, and even Pegg admits to being amazed by its size. Lin says he experimented with his visual effects supervisor Peter Chiang on its size, starting with around 2000 ships, then 4000. “In the third act we ended up doing 250,000 ships.”

The swarm is intended to reflect the insurgency-based warfare of the 21st century. “We were very aware that good sci-fi and good Star Trek has allegorical elements. The big battleships that have been built for war are still around – but the tactics have shifted too.”

Pegg offers a little backstory on the swarm, which was originally a mining colony. “That's what the swarm is – sophisticated mining equipment. All those soldiers were just worker drones. Krall turned them into an army, and turned the swarm into a weapon. There's all this great backstory to be explored in the novelisation!”


Kraal can in principle put almost fourteen (each ship has two) of those drones on board for every crewman.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby SpottedKitty » 2016-08-23 06:51am

Abacus wrote:How many drones were there?

Haven't watched the film yet, but the clips I've seen so far show at least two or three sagans, maybe four. :wink:
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Abacus » 2016-08-23 07:16am

SpottedKitty wrote:
Abacus wrote:How many drones were there?

Haven't watched the film yet, but the clips I've seen so far show at least two or three sagans, maybe four. :wink:


Maybe I wasn't clear.

How *many* drones were there?
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby NecronLord » 2016-08-23 07:17am

I'm not sure what the in-joke is there. Someone explain.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Abacus » 2016-08-23 07:20am

NecronLord wrote:Empire Magazine states that Kraal's final attack wave comprises a quarter million ships.

The swarm army commanded by Krall (Idris Elba) is a fearsome force, and even Pegg admits to being amazed by its size. Lin says he experimented with his visual effects supervisor Peter Chiang on its size, starting with around 2000 ships, then 4000. “In the third act we ended up doing 250,000 ships.”

The swarm is intended to reflect the insurgency-based warfare of the 21st century. “We were very aware that good sci-fi and good Star Trek has allegorical elements. The big battleships that have been built for war are still around – but the tactics have shifted too.”

Pegg offers a little backstory on the swarm, which was originally a mining colony. “That's what the swarm is – sophisticated mining equipment. All those soldiers were just worker drones. Krall turned them into an army, and turned the swarm into a weapon. There's all this great backstory to be explored in the novelisation!”


Kraal can in principle put almost fourteen (each ship has two) of those drones on board for every crewman.



Thank you for the sources there NecronLord.

Seeing this I can unequivocally state that the ISD is screwed. The battle would last maybe thirty-minutes.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2016-08-23 08:56am

Can they defeat a Death Star? :D
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby NecronLord » 2016-08-23 09:23am

Going by the canonical numbers of crew they'd have a numeric advantage (for 'Luke Skywalker didn't kill a million people nuh-uh' reasons sources make the crew of the Death Star very small, but it seems unlikely given the large volume, which would allow the Death Star crew to retreat and regroup.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-08-23 09:47am

Abacus wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Empire Magazine states that Kraal's final attack wave comprises a quarter million ships.

The swarm army commanded by Krall (Idris Elba) is a fearsome force, and even Pegg admits to being amazed by its size. Lin says he experimented with his visual effects supervisor Peter Chiang on its size, starting with around 2000 ships, then 4000. “In the third act we ended up doing 250,000 ships.”

The swarm is intended to reflect the insurgency-based warfare of the 21st century. “We were very aware that good sci-fi and good Star Trek has allegorical elements. The big battleships that have been built for war are still around – but the tactics have shifted too.”

Pegg offers a little backstory on the swarm, which was originally a mining colony. “That's what the swarm is – sophisticated mining equipment. All those soldiers were just worker drones. Krall turned them into an army, and turned the swarm into a weapon. There's all this great backstory to be explored in the novelisation!”


Kraal can in principle put almost fourteen (each ship has two) of those drones on board for every crewman.



Thank you for the sources there NecronLord.

Seeing this I can unequivocally state that the ISD is screwed. The battle would last maybe thirty-minutes.


So... we've found something in canon Trek that can semi-reliably kill an ISD via conventional warfare? Is this a first?
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Elheru Aran » 2016-08-23 09:50am

The Romulan Republic wrote:So... we've found something in canon Trek that can semi-reliably kill an ISD via conventional warfare? Is this a first?


Not really. The Borg, for example, could probably give an ISD a hard time (granted if you go with low end ISD numbers...). V'Ger was pretty powerful. Q, of course. Even the Narada might have been able to do it, but we didn't see a whole lot in terms of its capabilities. There are a few others, I'm sure.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-08-23 09:52am

I think most of those (particularly the Borg) would have been hotly disputed back in the day.

Q I think could... but I also wouldn't classify what Q can do under "conventional warfare"- hence why I worded it in that manner.

Edit: Of course, we should grant the ISD its obvious escape clause- its ability to jump to hyperspace and simply run. However, that depends on it having time to do so (may be in doubt if its in a gravity well and not expecting to have to flee immediately when its attacked, but I haven't seen Beyond yet), as well as on the commander not being overconfident enough to fight it out.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2016-08-23 10:00am

If we go with Legends canon for the ISD, doesn't that give it something like 1500g sublight acceleration? Even if it can't jump to hyperspace it should be able to get away at sublight. I don't know what estimates there are for Krall's drones sublight performance but as an eyeball I don't think it was that high.

Plus the whole high-gigaton/low-teraton range flak bursting turbolasers thing should prove effective at clearing close swarms of lightly-armoured targets.

EDIT: wookipedia lists sublight acceleration for ISDI/II as ">2300g" for Legends canon.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-08-23 10:05am

So then it depends on weather they can close on the ISD rapidly, before it can either destroy them all with long-range fire or flee?

Which means this pretty much has to be an ambush scenario to work.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby NecronLord » 2016-08-23 10:23am

The Romulan Republic wrote:I think most of those (particularly the Borg) would have been hotly disputed back in the day.

Q I think could... but I also wouldn't classify what Q can do under "conventional warfare"- hence why I worded it in that manner.

Edit: Of course, we should grant the ISD its obvious escape clause- its ability to jump to hyperspace and simply run. However, that depends on it having time to do so (may be in doubt if its in a gravity well and not expecting to have to flee immediately when its attacked, but I haven't seen Beyond yet), as well as on the commander not being overconfident enough to fight it out.

It also ignores that Krall is shown to be a very smart cookie and not above ramming his dispensible craft to disable the enemy FTL (for those who've not seen the film, he does this to the Enterprise when it tries to retreat). Assuming he was able to determine where it is on an ISD through educated guesswork, or just that he might destroy the engine bells in the early part of the engagement before 'retreat' occurs to the enemy.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby NecronLord » 2016-08-23 10:29am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Plus the whole high-gigaton/low-teraton range flak bursting turbolasers thing should prove effective at clearing close swarms of lightly-armoured targets.


Image

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Am I remembering the dialogue right here?

Star Wars ships aren't nearly as good at getting rid of smallcraft as people here traditionally made out.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2016-08-23 10:41am

Yeah, the DS1 turbolasers couldn't stop 30 fighters in loose formation. But 250,000 in an extremely close formation? You don't have to hit individuals targets to take out multiple ships if the bolts can smash through tens or dozens of ships in the swarm.

Hence why I said it "should prove effective at clearing close swarms of lightly-armoured targets." You can't compare this hypothetical situation to Yavin as the situation is too different. Especially since the DS1 guns were explicitly built for fending off capships not fighters, whilst in Legends cannon massed fire from ISDs/SSDs was a threat to Rebel fighters. And again, those Rebel fighters were a) aware of the possibility/danger and b) actively maneuvering to avoid getting hit whilst Krall's swarm didn't IIRC, the swarm moved and relied on attrition and numbers to wear down targets (I may be wrong, I only saw Beyond once and it's been a couple weeks).

Plus the (by ST standards) ridiculous sublight acceleration of the ISD means that it has to be an ambush situation, as TRR pointed out. Which precludes using the entire swarm, since by the time thy form up the ISD can say "fuck it" and retreat at high speed.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby tezunegari » 2016-08-23 11:01am

Can Krall's little mosquitos actually penetrate an ISDs armor plating?

Or are they going to go splat?
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-08-23 11:11am

They can always swarm the hanger bay if they can get through the shields.

Or maybe go through the bridge windows like that A wing at Endor.

Not every inch of an ISD is imperiously armoured.

Edit: Although: Does an ISD have hanger bay doors? I mean physical doors that can be closed, not just a force field.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby NecronLord » 2016-08-23 11:13am

tezunegari wrote:Can Krall's little mosquitos actually penetrate an ISDs armor plating?

Or are they going to go splat?


Look at the screencaps of a venator? It's not that thick. Separatist pods use the same mechanism exactly.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby NecronLord » 2016-08-23 11:18am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Yeah, the DS1 turbolasers couldn't stop 30 fighters in loose formation. But 250,000 in an extremely close formation? You don't have to hit individuals targets to take out multiple ships if the bolts can smash through tens or dozens of ships in the swarm.

Hence why I said it "should prove effective at clearing close swarms of lightly-armoured targets." You can't compare this hypothetical situation to Yavin as the situation is too different. Especially since the DS1 guns were explicitly built for fending off capships not fighters, whilst in Legends cannon massed fire from ISDs/SSDs was a threat to Rebel fighters. And again, those Rebel fighters were a) aware of the possibility/danger and b) actively maneuvering to avoid getting hit whilst Krall's swarm didn't IIRC, the swarm moved and relied on attrition and numbers to wear down targets (I may be wrong, I only saw Beyond once and it's been a couple weeks).

Plus the (by ST standards) ridiculous sublight acceleration of the ISD means that it has to be an ambush situation, as TRR pointed out. Which precludes using the entire swarm, since by the time thy form up the ISD can say "fuck it" and retreat at high speed.


The point is the flakbursts don't exist and aren't even tried in any serious way vs fighters in Star Wars.

The swarm didn't try to evade but nu-Trek guns have a firing rate of upward of 1500 RPM and a near 100% hit ratio vs missiles on the connie (I've done a thread on this in the past) and accuracy to within about two meters - far better than Turbolasers. There's no point trying to evade them - they'd be extremely effective vs Wars fighters too.
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Re: Krall's Fleet vs. an ISD

Postby SpottedKitty » 2016-08-23 11:55am

Abacus wrote:
SpottedKitty wrote:Haven't watched the film yet, but the clips I've seen so far show at least two or three sagans, maybe four. :wink:

Maybe I wasn't clear.

How *many* drones were there?

Yes, that's what I said. Maybe the joke's worn a bit thin nowadays — the "sagan" is supposed to be the standard unit for "a reallyreallyreallybig, huge, unimaginably enormous number". Named after St. Carl, of course.
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