Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

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Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby Darth Thanatos » 2016-06-08 06:10pm

The shipyards above the fourth moon of the gas giant Vari were infiltrated by Federation commandos, who were able to disable the facility's security systems, after which a Starfleet, eh, starfleet( :? ), that had been sitting in a relatively stable asteroid field to avoid detection, swooped in, and made off with several just-completed and fueled ships. This collection consists of:
1 Imperial II-class star destroyer.
1 Victory II-class star destroyer.
1 Gladiator-class star destroyer- relatively lightly armed, this design(which I didn't invent!) has three massive hangers which normally would contain various TIE craft, but currently are empty.
3 Imperial II-class frigates, a lighter and smaller variant of the Imperial II star destroyer.
7 Tartan-class corvettes
The enemy also has their original ships, but the skeleton crews they would be left with are too small for battle, so their computers have been programmed to send them back to the nearest starbase. They were already full to bursting with additional personnel to needed command the Imperial ships. How the Federation gained the schedules of the shipyards and the knowledge to use the new ships is currently unknown. However, that is for the sequel to this post. :angelic:

You are an Imperial admiral sent with a force of three Imperial-II star destroyers (yours, unlike the stolen ones, have full fighter complements) and an Interdictor to intercept the fleet and recapture, or, if you must, destroy it. You have been assigned a full legion of stormtroopers for boarding the ships, plus the usual standard soldiers( In my mind: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/9f/RSTE64_6276ded3_14_1.png/revision/latest?cb=20130301195606 ) and two shadow troopers. Use those wisely. Every Federation crewmember will for certain be armed with a hand phaser, and a large percentage of the Feds will likely be outfitted with more powerful phaser rifles in the event of boarding.
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby NecronLord » 2016-06-08 08:03pm

I go and blockade Earth and begin firing teraton shots into the middle of the pacific until the United Federation of Planets surrenders its polity to me, and excecutes whoever had the front to attack the Empire; and of course keep a garrison there at least until they return the ships to me.

EDIT: Grammar.
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2016-06-08 08:11pm

That's definitely one way to go.

I think I would adopt a slightly less, um, genocidal approach. chase down the captured ships, drag them out of hyperspace with the Interdictor, and destroy them. A single ISD-II, a VSD-II and another light SD, all of which are barely finished, with no fighters and skeletons crews that are unfamiliar with the ships, will be no match for three fully-crewed ISD-IIs.

Once this is done, jump to the starbase and obliterate it in retribution. Have diplomats inform the Federation that any further attacks will result in Earth suffering a BDZ.
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby Esquire » 2016-06-08 09:50pm

What EF said, basically. A trio of ISDs can absolutely defeat a gaggle of poorly-manned, under-armed stolen warships; after either forcing the Federation hijackers to surrender or destroying them, our Imperial admiral would certainly take steps to ensure that this dangerously aggressive fringe government did not continue to pose a threat to Imperial security... by, say, destroying a Starfleet station or two, every ship involved in the hijacking, and putting a few craters into Earth's moon from low orbit just to emphasize the point. Elaborate boarding actions are unnecessary, and even if they were the Imperial troops could simply flood key spaces with nerve gas or fragmentation grenades and send in the NBC-protected stormtroopers. A less imposing shipboard infantry force than Starfleet Security I can't imagine.
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby Darth Thanatos » 2016-06-08 09:54pm

NecronLord wrote:I go and blockade Earth and begin firing teraton shots into the middle of the pacific until the United Federation of Planets surrenders its polity to me, and excecutes whoever had the front to attack the Empire; and of course until they return the ships to me.

Well... that's one way to do it. :roll:
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby Darth Thanatos » 2016-06-08 09:56pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:That's definitely one way to go.

I think I would adopt a slightly less, um, genocidal approach. chase down the captured ships, drag them out of hyperspace with the Interdictor, and destroy them. A single ISD-II, a VSD-II and another light SD, all of which are barely finished, with no fighters and skeletons crews that are unfamiliar with the ships, will be no match for three fully-crewed ISD-IIs.

Once this is done, jump to the starbase and obliterate it in retribution. Have diplomats inform the Federation that any further attacks will result in Earth suffering a BDZ.


You are supposed to destroy them only if absolutely necessary. Lord Vader Force chokes you for incompetence :P
"Love does not lead to the Dark Side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled. But passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you, not condemn you." - Jolee Bindo, on the subject of the Jedi forbidding love.

If you want to really make a Hobbit mad at you, quote Anna from Frozen and tell them foot size doesn't matter.

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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby U.P. Cinnabar » 2016-06-08 11:19pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:That's definitely one way to go.

I think I would adopt a slightly less, um, genocidal approach. chase down the captured ships, drag them out of hyperspace with the Interdictor, and destroy them. A single ISD-II, a VSD-II and another light SD, all of which are barely finished, with no fighters and skeletons crews that are unfamiliar with the ships, will be no match for three fully-crewed ISD-IIs.

Once this is done, jump to the starbase and obliterate it in retribution. Have diplomats inform the Federation that any further attacks will result in Earth suffering a BDZ.


All the above, except use the ion cannon on the ISDs to disable the stolen ships. Instead of hitting the starbase, jump directly to the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards and bomb them to hell and gone, and BDZ Mars as well.

Then have the 24 ISD IIs of the, um, Diplomatic Corps inform the Feds that should they think they have any rights, let alone the right to attack the Empire, that the next three candidates for BDZ will be Andor, Tellar Prime, and Vulcan, with the rest of the Federation forced to watch on all Federation information and entertainment channels.
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-06-08 11:21pm

OP gives you only three SDs.

My answer presumes that I am limited to the forces I have.

Darth Thanatos wrote:The shipyards above the fourth moon of the gas giant Vari were infiltrated by Federation commandos, who were able to disable the facility's security systems, after which a Starfleet, eh, starfleet( :? ), that had been sitting in a relatively stable asteroid field to avoid detection, swooped in, and made off with several just-completed and fueled ships. This collection consists of:
1 Imperial II-class star destroyer.
1 Victory II-class star destroyer.
1 Gladiator-class star destroyer- relatively lightly armed, this design(which I didn't invent!) has three massive hangers which normally would contain various TIE craft, but currently are empty.
3 Imperial II-class frigates, a lighter and smaller variant of the Imperial II star destroyer.
7 Tartan-class corvettes
The enemy also has their original ships, but the skeleton crews they would be left with are too small for battle, so their computers have been programmed to send them back to the nearest starbase. They were already full to bursting with additional personnel to needed command the Imperial ships. How the Federation gained the schedules of the shipyards and the knowledge to use the new ships is currently unknown. However, that is for the sequel to this post. :angelic:

You are an Imperial admiral sent with a force of three Imperial-II star destroyers (yours, unlike the stolen ones, have full fighter complements) and an Interdictor to intercept the fleet and recapture, or, if you must, destroy it. You have been assigned a full legion of stormtroopers for boarding the ships, plus the usual standard soldiers( In my mind: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/9f/RSTE64_6276ded3_14_1.png/revision/latest?cb=20130301195606 ) and two shadow troopers. Use those wisely. Every Federation crewmember will for certain be armed with a hand phaser, and a large percentage of the Feds will likely be outfitted with more powerful phaser rifles in the event of boarding.


Well, my sympathies are with the Federation, so my preference would be to deliberately throw the battle somehow and then surrender and defect, or flee during the chaos. Of course, then the Empire would probably just send a bigger fleet with a more ruthless and loyal commander, and then the Federation would be fucked. :(

However, as to how one could win this as an Imperial officer...

Shouldn't be hard.

I'm going to presume that I can't track the stolen ships through hyperspace, as they'll be of similar speed to my own fleet, have a head start, and be in hyperspace before I arrive (I'm a bit iffy about how tracking through hyperspace works). I will assume, however, that I can track the Starfleet vessels at warp. I am also going to presume that I have carte blanche from the Emperor or whichever emissary/subordinate of his is in charge of this region/fleet to handle the situation as I see fit, provided that I do not betray the Empire and that I recover or destroy the stolen vessels (presumably my superiors would prefer recovery if possible).

I trace the Starfleet ships to their destination, drop out of hyperspace, and disable them and board, then interrogate the senior officers for information on the destination of the stolen ships (presuming they're not with the Starfleet vessels). I then self-destruct the captured Starbase (since I doubt I can spare the personnel to hold it).

For engaging the stolen vessels themselves... this is a trickier battle. The interdictor can keep them from escaping, provided they don't destroy the interdictor, and its unlikely that their crews will be able to operate them as effectively as Imperial crews, but they do have one SD that's a match, theoretically, for mine, and enough smaller vessels that numbers might win out. I'm torn between focussing my fire on the smaller ships first to knock them out quickly, then having my full fleet gang up on the big boys, or ignoring the smaller ships as irrelevant and trying to knock out the capital ships first. I'm also torn on weather to use ion cannons to try to take them intact, or simply go all-out and pound them until they blow up, surrender, or are crippled. I'd need more information on the level of firepower of the smaller vessels, and the effectiveness of an ISD's ion canons on another SD, to make those calls.

As to weather to pursue any sort of larger retaliation against the Federation, I'm torn.

On the one hand, my mission is only to retake or destroy the vessels, I don't want to exceed my mandate, and I have limited forces for waging an all-out war. Possibly I could wage a campaign of genocide with three SDs, provided no anomaly or super being interfered and my supplies didn't run out, but a) I don't want to, and b), I'd rather take the Federation intact if it came to that. And I don't have the forces for an occupation.

On the other hand, it might be best to simply nip this in the bud before it can escalate any further. Bloody the Federation enough to force them to give some steep concessions before it becomes a larger war.

But again, I feel like making that sort of call is beyond a mere admiral's mandate.

The simplest approach would be to simply jump out directly over Earth, fire a warning shot and issue my demands, then if refused target each Starfleet facility in the system, starting with the Utopia Planitia yards, then Starfleet HQ, and then the Academy, until the Federation complies.

Demands would likely have to include a cease fire/non-aggression pact, perhaps even that the Federation become a protectorate of the Empire, as well as financial compensation for the damage caused by the attack and the responsible parties (likely including Starfleet Admirals and possibly the President/Council) being handed over to Imperial justice.

On the other hand, I'm a little nervous about something this brazen. While I presume I have more firepower, ICS isn't canon any more, so I'm not sure my advantage is that big, and I don't want to give the Federation time to call their whole fleet back home or start technobabling a solution.

I might settle for just some retaliatory strikes against Federation border posts/Starbases or something like that, with a message being broadcast at each attack to the effect of "Don't pull this shit again or next time it'll be worse".

Oh, regardless, I also remove the shipyard's head of security and CO for gross incompetence, presuming that I have the authority to do so. :D

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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby NecronLord » 2016-06-09 04:04am

Darth Thanatos wrote:Well... that's one way to do it. :roll:

Darth Thanatos wrote:You are supposed to destroy them only if absolutely necessary. Lord Vader Force chokes you for incompetence :P


I like how you criticize my tactics implicitly but then point out that the personal stakes are very high.

It's a direct and ruthless (therefore acceptable to Imperial command) tactic, and to be honest, apart from demanding the execution of the ringleaders of this idiocy (which is mind you, less people than will be killed in a direct engagement and probably less people than they killed in their raid) it's one that works; I know it works because we've seen the Federation attacked by someone prepared to vapourise the oceans using a superior form of power, and they were helpless, but without significant loss of life on that incident; I have my destroyers engage any starfleet ship that gets in my way using ion cannons only and broadly get the same result as this:



We also know that the Federation recovered, and that this was not treated as a major disaster. My plan is to attack the Pacific, not to start attacking people.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:That's definitely one way to go.

I think I would adopt a slightly less, um, genocidal approach. chase down the captured ships, drag them out of hyperspace with the Interdictor, and destroy them. A single ISD-II, a VSD-II and another light SD, all of which are barely finished, with no fighters and skeletons crews that are unfamiliar with the ships, will be no match for three fully-crewed ISD-IIs.

Once this is done, jump to the starbase and obliterate it in retribution. Have diplomats inform the Federation that any further attacks will result in Earth suffering a BDZ.

I executed some admirals, you killed thousands on Spacedock and then threaten a total bombardment. And I'm the genocide-monger? Certainly I myself would have a hard time ordering anyone to shoot say, Admiral Nechayev or Janeway, but I'm assuming I come from the imperial culture and follow its mores.

You also have another problem, you need to draw them into battle. They seem to have just sodded off, so they could be anywhere in the Federation or even beyond; an interdictor doesn't help if you don't know where to point it. The other reason for attacking Earth is also to force them into an engagement, which we would be in a position to win.



It's a watered down version of this, a canonical Imperial tactic. Attack what they value to draw them out or back.

I'm assuming a general knowledge of the Federation akin to that that rival states' strategists have in Star Trek (IE that Earth is the lynch-pin of resistance; e.g. Weyoun saying that they'd have to destroy it, Shinzon saying that destroying it would destroy the Federation and none of the Romulan Admirals questioning that on practical grounds, etc) once the ships in orbit are rendered neutral, and the cloud cover hits seventy percent they should be willing to surrender.

The Romulan Republic wrote:On the other hand, I'm a little nervous about something this brazen. While I presume I have more firepower, ICS isn't canon any more, so I'm not sure my advantage is that big,


There are EU ships in the stolen fleet, so presumably legends material is in.
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-06-09 04:38am

I'd prefer it if the OP clarified that point, just to remove any ambiguity, but in any case, my other concerns still stand.

Maybe I just like to play it safe, but three ISDs is actually a pretty small force even for taking on the Federation. I'm not saying I couldn't win, but I probably couldn't win through any more restrained means than wholesale slaughter, which wouldn't leave much for the Empire to conquer.

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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby NecronLord » 2016-06-09 04:41am

I think the Whale Probe plan has real legs; it worked in Star Trek, and made even Kirk jump through extreme hoops to comply with the Whale Probe's implicit demands (Earth better fuckin' have Sperm Whales right the fuck now).
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-06-09 05:02am

NecronLord wrote:I executed some admirals, you killed thousands on Spacedock and then threaten a total bombardment. And I'm the genocide-monger? Certainly I myself would have a hard time ordering anyone to shoot say, Admiral Nechayev or Janeway, but I'm assuming I come from the imperial culture and follow its mores.


I must take exception to this.

You posted that you would fire terraton level shots into the ocean.

I cannot believe that that would not cause massive environmental damage, or mass casualties via tsunami.

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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2016-06-09 05:59am

I only threatened firing on Earth. The starbase I would blow up would be whichever one the Starfleet ships that captured my ships are heading to, not Spacedock. Destroyingthe starbase and then heading to Earth to threaten it nicely achieves NecronLord's "draw them into battle" point.

As for blowing up the captured ships rather than incapacitating them, sure, I cold open up with Ion cannons, but as TRR pointed out, while the odds are favorable they aren't favorable enough that I can use only a fraction of my firepower. Plus, I have ISD-IIs, whose main battery lacks the heavy ion cannons of the mark 1s. I don't know if the ISD-IIs carry enough ion cannons that I can be sure of disabling all three enemy capital ships plus escort quickly enough to prevent them desroying the Interdictor and escaping.
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Re: Tactics Scenario: Theft above Vari IV

Postby NecronLord » 2016-06-09 07:00am

The Romulan Republic wrote:I must take exception to this.

You posted that you would fire terraton level shots into the ocean.

I cannot believe that that would not cause massive environmental damage, or mass casualties via tsunami.


The whale probe did that too.

It was a randomly selected phrase to be suggestive of the ease with which the planet can be crippled. I'll run the numbers for the whale probe and revise my planned firing scheme if you like.

Earth's cloud cover is 70% normally, the whale probe raised it to 93.2%.
COMPUTER VOICE
93.2 percent. Probe now orbiting South Pacific. Estimate total cloud cover by next orbit. No known way to dissipate cloud cover.



37.5 million billion gallons exist in the atmosphere normally. 3.75e15 gallons This is 1.7e16 Litres; approximately equal to Kg for water.

1.7e14 is 1%, so increasing cloud cover by 23.2% is conservatively going to be 23.2*1.7e14 =3.9e15 Kg vapourised. 3.9e15 Kg

The latent heat of vaporization of water is 2.2e6 J/Kg

2.2e6 J *3.9e15 Kg = 8.5e24J = 2 petatons delivered over some time. It's very back of envelope because i'm not using seawater figures etc.

EDIT: The filmed line sounds like 78.6% to me, so it is only an 8% increase rather than a 23% increase, approximately one third of this, but well into the hundreds-of-teratons. /EDIT

Probably you'd want to deliver tens of thousands of kiloton/megaton/gigaton shots to have the same effect over a sustained period.

When the Earth's power is restored by the probe the clouds begin to dissipate and seas begin to calm, (presumably this is the weather control grid which the probe had neutralised, coming back online). So they can fix that promptly.

In the real world, yeah, sure, environmental effects would be catastrophic. Earth isn't a static target though. The Federation spends money on weather control - it's entirely possible that the weather modification authority, or whatever the commissioning body for these marvels is called, is better funded than Starfleet.
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