Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-05-26 02:03am

Axton wrote:Would the pansy corps Starfleet even have the spine to deploy an ISD without decades of bureaucratic hand-wringing first?


Just because the Federation, in general, believes in diplomacy and mutual coexistence and cooperation, and isn't run by fronting at the mouth genocidal war mongers, does not make them weak.

We have seen repeatedly Federation captains who were willing to destroy their ships rather than surrender when they felt that the terms of surrender would be intolerable. Oh, and remember that DS9 episode where they predicted that the Federation would lose 900 billion people before being defeated by the Dominion? Another way to put that is that the Federation would be willing to keep fighting after 800 billion losses.

We've also seen people in the Federation/Starfleet who are willing to take decisive action if they feel it is necessary. Even against orders. Picard disobeying orders to join the fight against the Borg in First Contact, with the support of his bridge crew. And for a more sinister example, Section 31.

If Picard, Sisko, or Janeway, much less Section 31, saw one chance to save the entire Federation, do you really think they'd wait for it to work its way through the bureaucracy?

Do they prefer peace? Yes, on the whole. Are they weak? Hell no.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-05-26 02:16am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Axton wrote:Would the pansy corps Starfleet even have the spine to deploy an ISD without decades of bureaucratic hand-wringing first?


Just because the Federation, in general, believes in diplomacy and mutual coexistence and cooperation, and isn't run by fronting at the mouth genocidal war mongers, does not make them weak.

We have seen repeatedly Federation captains who were willing to destroy their ships rather than surrender when they felt that the terms of surrender would be intolerable. Oh, and remember that DS9 episode where they predicted that the Federation would lose 900 billion people before being defeated by the Dominion? Another way to put that is that the Federation would be willing to keep fighting after 800 billion losses.

We've also seen people in the Federation/Starfleet who are willing to take decisive action if they feel it is necessary. Even against orders. Picard disobeying orders to join the fight against the Borg in First Contact, with the support of his bridge crew. And for a more sinister example, Section 31.

If Picard, Sisko, or Janeway, much less Section 31, saw one chance to save the entire Federation, do you really think they'd wait for it to work its way through the bureaucracy?

Do they prefer peace? Yes, on the whole. Are they weak? Hell no.
Oh and what was the Federation responce to Borg invasion, to cover under their beds because they needed to use force to defeat the borg? Hell no, Starfleet designed and built a class of ships whose sole purpose was to be essentially a pair of big guns strapped to warp engined (the Defiant-class). Also when told about the "borg killer" computer-virus Enterprise-D crew developted but didn't deploy, a Repesentive of Star Fleet command in their official capacity said in no uncertain terms that should Picard get another change to deploy the virus he should take it and shove his ethical complaints where the sun don't shine.

So no UFP is not self-destructbly peaceful or weak. They just prefer peace as the default, which after 3 world wars and a bitter and bloody war against the Romulans (humans were after all the ones who essentially created UFP) it's understandble that they might have more of a distaste for war then modern USA. hell even USA itself had a less policy similar before Pearl Harbor but after WWI.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby NecronLord » 2016-05-26 06:34pm

Esquire wrote:There's a couple ways around that - first, replace the troop, (most of the) stores, and hangar spaces with the universe's most gigantic battery array, charged from standard Federation antimatter reactors during downtime, and second, dial the weapons and shield power levels down to only ten or fifteen orders of magnitude above Star Trek standard while leaving the acceleration more or less as canon. Making adjustments according to the tactical situation, that leaves a warship that always crushingly superior to anything it faces while not wasting more power than it needs to.

Additionally, I'd be surprised if a ship with a crew in the tens of thousands didn't have enough of a technical library on board to describe hypermatter production; it would take a huge amount of time and resources to ramp up, obviously, but it wouldn't be impossible to eventually refuel Subjugator. Or rather whatever it's re-launched as. :D


Battery power means making serious modification to the ship's power tree (the spinal-arrangements inside the ships that convey power); that's yard work, and yard work for people who know what they're doing, especially as the reactor can't be fully shut down once activated.

SWTC wrote: During a hot pursuit, a starship may devote most of its reactor power to engines. During a standing battle where the relative accelerations are much less than thousands of G, a much greater share of reactor power may be devoted to weapons. During normal cruising, the reactor output may be reduced by orders of magnitude, although it probably isn't possible to completely turn off a large hypermatter reactor (like that of a star destroyer).


Dr Saxton described two explanations of what hypermatter reactors are, one note he makes is that; hypermatter reactors cannot be disengaged once they're turned on, as he envisions the reactors as using suspended micro-singulatirities that convert the fuel to energy (direct link) Like Romulan Warbirds' singularity cores. Once you stop feeding it, KABAM - the ship blows up, and it's almost certainly engineered to require the right fuel.

No doubt there is a procedure to cold-shut down a hypermatter reactor, and likely failsafes to prevent critical fuel situations causing the reactor to blow, and the crew would know how to do it, but then without kindling new singularities to place in it, there's no grounds to think the UFP could turn it on again. And a uncontrolled shutdown caused by tampering would possibly destroy the ship.

Hypermatter production is likely extremely complex; remember most of the Star Wars galaxy's people don't get their power from hypermatter (in this it's analogous to nuclear power in the real world) but from fusion.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Joun_Lord » 2016-05-26 10:33pm

I wonder who would be given command of the USS Fluffy Bunny.

The problem with most Starfleet Captains is they really don't seem like they would know how to command an actual warship especially one so large as the Fluffy Bunny. Sisko is probably closest to a true soldier of the Captains we've saw (in the TNG era) but he is used to commanding a ship that is more like an overgrown attack fighter in how it performs in combat. Would he be able to go from commanding a small highly maneuverable ship with a tiny crew to commanding a vessel that moves like a DMV line but is bristling with weapons and would need atleast 10s of thousands of crew members possibly more depending on the state of the droids and how the Federation treats them (I remember reading ISDs had a large droid complement to supplement the crew)?

Would a Picard or a Captain like him be able to command it? Picard seemed very hesitant to use a powerhouse like the Galaxy in even the most terrible fights. A ship like the Fluffy Bunny would be wasted possibly by a conservative Captain who wouldn't use the ships full potential in combat.

Riker might be a better fit considering despite saying stupid shit like combat skills are a minor province of a starship captain and to test them is a waste of effort he seemed more like a military officer then an explorer compared to John Luck Pickerd.

Thats assuming they even leave it a straight up warship. Considering they have no need to have any ship carry 10 thousand troops so they could probably convert the troop areas and the storage areas for the AT-ATs, prefab bases, and other unneeded ground pounder stuff into science labs. Essentially turn the Fluffy Bunny into a overgrown Galaxy class. Heaven help us the Federation would probably put families and children onboard the boat.

Of course this seems unlikely during the Dominion War but you never know, certainly it would be a possibility after the Dominion are dealt with assuming the ship is left intact after the war. I could easily see them using the Fluffy Bunny for the war as a sort of superweapon but once the war is done breaking down the ship to study it. It has to be costly to keep it running. The normal complement of a ISD is nearly 10 thousand though it could possibly be more in the Federations hands. Thats like the crew for 10 Galaxy's, some of the largest ships in the Federation fleet. The requirements in spare parts, munitions, and supplies would be staggering. If they can produce their own or cajole the Rommies into selling them some hypermatter that would require no doubt a huge amount.

Running the Fluffy Bunny probably wouldn't bankrupt the Federation like people said the Death Star would the Empire but would certainly put a dent in their supplies.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2016-05-26 10:49pm

Of the TNG era Captins we see, IMO the best fit for the USS Fluffy Bunny would probably be Edward Jellicoe.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Joun_Lord » 2016-05-26 11:04pm

Shamefully I totally forgot about Jellico despite him being awesome. He was pretty by the books and ran the Enterprise like a military vessel including making Troi actually put on a uniform (too bad he couldn't do the same for Seven or T'Pol). He or perhaps Shelby would make excellent Captains, maybe Jellico as Captain and Shelby as his 2nd in command.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby FaxModem1 » 2016-05-27 12:54am

If you want a good behind the lines fighter, Captain Maxwell of the Phoenix, if he was sane enough to be trusted with something like the Fluffy Bunny.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby U.P. Cinnabar » 2016-05-27 06:09am

Joun_Lord wrote:Of course this seems unlikely during the Dominion War


I think the Dominion War-era Galaxies stopped carrying families. Not sure, though.

Running the Fluffy Bunny probably wouldn't bankrupt the Federation like people said the Death Star would the Empire but would certainly put a dent in their supplies.


The Feds only have 150 worlds, and only five or six of them(IIRC) are core worlds, compared to the Empire comprising most of the known SW Galaxy at its peak, and support by the Corporate Sector Authority(at least in the former EU), and Imperial infrastructure had support for ISDs built into it. Maintenace, upkeep, and operation of the Fluffy Bunny are going to break the Feds' back economically, or at least come close to doing so.

Also, why would the Feds swap out a crew and command staff already familiar with the ISD for a Starfleet crew and command team who has to spend precious time getting up to speed on that? I just don't see that being practical in wartime. Moreover, if the stormies are still a factor, even Starfleet isn't going to let them go to waste, especially when they can give the Jem'hadar a run for their money.

They'd most likely keep them and their gear on board the Fluffy Bunny, because power projection is a thing, and maybe retrofit a few replicators on board to make spare parts, and perhaps for food, though I suspect that the raw feedstock would consume about as much space as the original provisions did, though there might be some savings from eliminating refrigeration and such.*

Also, bacta and medical droids. The Feds would go apeshit over both, especially if they can produce enough medical droids to supplement(if not supplant) EMH programs.

*this all assumes the crew came with the ship. If it didn't, for some reason, then, feel free to disregard.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Zor » 2016-05-27 07:12am

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:*this all assumes the crew came with the ship. If it didn't, for some reason, then, feel free to disregard.

This is the case, the Subjugator's crew surrendered and Starfleet made use of them where needed to get her back into order.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby U.P. Cinnabar » 2016-05-27 07:25am

Then Starfleet would most likely retain the crew and command staff to operate the Fluffy Bunny. They already know how to run the ship, whereas a Starfleet crew and command team would have a learning curve, and the practical realities of war generallywouldn't favor training a new crew over keeping the old hands on.

Crew replacements are a different story, but there would be experienced spacers there to make sure any new guys learn the ropes as quickly as possible, so they don't fuck up and get everyone else killed as a result.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby NecronLord » 2016-05-27 08:44am

Also, why would the Feds swap out a crew and command staff already familiar with the ISD for a Starfleet crew and command team who has to spend precious time getting up to speed on that?

Because they will sell out to the Dominion the moment the first Vorta offers to bribe them. Or fuck off when they find a society that can give them their home standard of living. Maybe the Metrons.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-05-27 11:56am

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:Then Starfleet would most likely retain the crew and command staff to operate the Fluffy Bunny. They already know how to run the ship, whereas a Starfleet crew and command team would have a learning curve, and the practical realities of war generallywouldn't favor training a new crew over keeping the old hands on.

Crew replacements are a different story, but there would be experienced spacers there to make sure any new guys learn the ropes as quickly as possible, so they don't fuck up and get everyone else killed as a result.


How much do they trust the Imperial crew? Are they going to leave their greatest strategic and tactical asset entirely in the hands of foreigners who never went through Starfleet Academy?

Perhaps they'll mostly crew it with Imperials, at least at first, but at least some of the bridge staff/department heads will likely be Starfleet. Especially since they'll want their own people to gain experience working with the new tech.

Also, I'm skeptical of the idea that the Federation wouldn't be able to afford running an ISD. They do have a fleet of hundreds, likely thousands of ships during the Dominion War. An ISD is different tech., sure, but its not that big (I haven't done the math myself, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that its about the same size as ten Galaxy class ships).

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Joun_Lord » 2016-05-27 12:11pm

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:Also, why would the Feds swap out a crew and command staff already familiar with the ISD for a Starfleet crew and command team who has to spend precious time getting up to speed on that? I just don't see that being practical in wartime. Moreover, if the stormies are still a factor, even Starfleet isn't going to let them go to waste, especially when they can give the Jem'hadar a run for their money.


Because its a crew of uncertain loyalty from a complete different background. The Imperials are just that, Imperials. They are loyal to the Empire. If they think there is any way of getting home they probably aren't going to toss on the Starfleet PJs.

But assuming they do join Starfleet, they are loyal to Earth and the Federation, they are trained as complete soldiers rather then the soldier/explorer hybrid of Starfleet. They don't know the rules and regulations of Starfleet, the rules of engagement, how to seek out and new civilizations without using their guns to bend them into submission, and probably have no idea whats its like to boldly go where no man has gone before considering they are from a pretty much completely explored galaxy.

Even during the Dominion war ships where still doing the Federation thing and after they certainly will go back to it full time. Hell apparently Starfleet is so dedicated to exploration that even in a post apocalyptic Borg overrun alternate timeline Starfleet ships are still checking out anomalies.

So the Imperial crew will need retraining to become a Starfleet crew. That could take years through the normal process or atleast months through some half-assed speed retraining.

There is also the question of the character of the crew.

These are Imperials, even if they are not bad people themselves they still work for a very bad group. The Federation is going to go through the ships records and will probably be able to read between the lines of propaganda bullshit to see the atrocities the Empire had committed. Even assuming the crew of the ship were one of the good ones they may still be leery of giving them back control of a by their point of view doomsday weapon.

But the crew might not be good people. Its entirely possible they assisted in some sort of sapient rights abuse, slavery, genocide, or war crime. Starfleet might have a bunch war criminals that just in desperation they use like the Allies used captured German scientists but wouldn't put in control of a warship, just use them as technical advisors.

Same problems as above with the stormtroopers. I'm not sure how well battle hardened troops could perform in the Gold Shirt Starfleet security roles and its entirely possible some if not all are criminals.

Plus even if all the crew are a bunch of good people, the Imperial equivalent of Starfleet, there may not be enough of them to run the ship anyway. They went through a situation not unlike Voyager did being flung across the galaxy and that killed alot of her crew. Voyager had to use the Maquis crew to fill in their ranks. The losses aboard the Subjugator could be similar or higher. At the very least the USS Fluffy Bunny might have to have a mixed crew assuming they use the former Imperial crew at all.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby NecronLord » 2016-05-27 01:22pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Also, I'm skeptical of the idea that the Federation wouldn't be able to afford running an ISD. They do have a fleet of hundreds, likely thousands of ships during the Dominion War. An ISD is different tech., sure, but its not that big (I haven't done the math myself, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that its about the same size as ten Galaxy class ships).


The thing is that the ISD converts hypermatter; inherently superluminal matter with imaginary mass. They have no access to anything of the sort, and manufacture of hypermatter must be extremely complex and energy intensive.

In other words, the ISD has the power of entire fleets of UFP/Dominion/etc ships; that power comes from somewhere. Conservation of energy. That fuel is (superluminal) potential energy; but something has to supply the energy to create the fuel, as it doesn't exist in nature. IE generators more powerful than what an ISD carries (inefficiency).

In fact we have detailed background on the UFP's knowledge of Tachyons and engineering applications, there's nothing like a tachyonic fuel source in their arsenal. Link.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby FaxModem1 » 2016-05-27 02:15pm

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
Running the Fluffy Bunny probably wouldn't bankrupt the Federation like people said the Death Star would the Empire but would certainly put a dent in their supplies.


The Feds only have 150 worlds, and only five or six of them(IIRC) are core worlds, compared to the Empire comprising most of the known SW Galaxy at its peak, and support by the Corporate Sector Authority(at least in the former EU), and Imperial infrastructure had support for ISDs built into it. Maintenace, upkeep, and operation of the Fluffy Bunny are going to break the Feds' back economically, or at least come close to doing so.


Point of contention, the UFP has 150 member worlds. These are the major worlds that are equivalent to say, a rebuilt Bajor or Berengaria, a world that was explored in T'pol's day, colonized in Spock's, and such a valuable world in Picard's that Kai Winn compared it to Andoria or Vulcan. The Federation also seems to have dozens, if not hundreds of colony worlds. I'll grant you that the colony worlds probably aren't contributing a lot economically to Starfleet, aside from a location for a Starbase, but the member worlds seem to.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Captain Seafort » 2016-05-27 02:48pm

FaxModem1 wrote:The Federation also seems to have dozens, if not hundreds of colony worlds.


1000+, bare minimum. Possibly a lot more, if Kirk's comment to Cochrane in Metamorphosis only referred to human worlds rather than the Federation as a whole.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-05-27 02:59pm

Yeah, I seem to recall some line from Kirk about humanity being on a thousand worlds or somesuch, but that's pretty vague. It could refer to anything from human-specific colonies to worlds that humans have visited.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby NecronLord » 2016-05-27 09:02pm

There's the example of the mining planet with three guys on it from TOS, too...
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Solauren » 2016-05-30 09:16pm

Fuel limitations may not be as big an issue as you all think.

Consider, Turbolasers were fueled by 'Tibanna gas', which was found in most gas giants.
And the UFP will be able to analyze it, and figure out what it is, and hopefully how to mine it. Possibly via transporter beam.

The ISD no longer has ammo issues.

Same with hypermatter. We don't know what it is, but if the Federation can figure out how to mine it and process it (it's reasonable to assume that some of the ships engineers might know about that)...

Now, here's a question: What happens when you connect a something like a Subspace Transporter to a Hypermatter reactor to power it? Specifically, to it's range? If we are talking increase, then imagine using the ISD as a long range transporter station, beaming warheads (UFP or Imperial) against enemy targets.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby biostem » 2016-05-30 09:29pm

Solauren wrote:Fuel limitations may not be as big an issue as you all think.

Consider, Turbolasers were fueled by 'Tibanna gas', which was found in most gas giants.
And the UFP will be able to analyze it, and figure out what it is, and hopefully how to mine it. Possibly via transporter beam.

The ISD no longer has ammo issues.

Same with hypermatter. We don't know what it is, but if the Federation can figure out how to mine it and process it (it's reasonable to assume that some of the ships engineers might know about that)...

Now, here's a question: What happens when you connect a something like a Subspace Transporter to a Hypermatter reactor to power it? Specifically, to it's range? If we are talking increase, then imagine using the ISD as a long range transporter station, beaming warheads (UFP or Imperial) against enemy targets.



There is no assurance that Starfleet will A) Be able to reverse engineer the Imperial tech and B) Be able to reproduce the tech, even if they can reverse engineer it.

Heck, there may be a fundamental incompatibility between Starfleet tech and that of the Imperials - maybe hypermatter can't be transported (via a matter-energy transporter). My understanding is that Tibanna gas is simply 1 component of how blasters/turbo lasers work - it may be a chief reactant, but there is likely other tech in such devices that uses the gas to convert it into the high energy blaster/laser bolts.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby NecronLord » 2016-05-31 07:16am

Solauren wrote:Fuel limitations may not be as big an issue as you all think.

Consider, Turbolasers were fueled by 'Tibanna gas', which was found in most gas giants.
And the UFP will be able to analyze it, and figure out what it is, and hopefully how to mine it. Possibly via transporter beam.

The ISD no longer has ammo issues.

Same with hypermatter. We don't know what it is, but if the Federation can figure out how to mine it and process it (it's reasonable to assume that some of the ships engineers might know about that)...

Now, here's a question: What happens when you connect a something like a Subspace Transporter to a Hypermatter reactor to power it? Specifically, to it's range? If we are talking increase, then imagine using the ISD as a long range transporter station, beaming warheads (UFP or Imperial) against enemy targets.

Hypermatter basically can't be present in nature; it's an even more exotic power source than antimatter.


Transporter range doesn't grok with power. The Dominion has long range transporters but not a drastically more powerful fuel source.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby FedRebel » 2016-06-01 02:22pm

Zor wrote:In this scenario, some time shortly after the Death of Emperor Palpatine the Imperial Star Destroyer Subjugator is being persued by New Republic forces and has taken heavy damage near a scientific base in the uncharted regions. Faced with the prospects of Destruction it's captain flees through an usual and unstable spacial anomaly that opens up every few decades. The Rebels are convinced that the Subjugator destroyed itself and go on in search of


Clarification, The Rebels assume the Subjugator as destroyed, ignorant of the wormhole and just go about their business?

The ship gets banged about a fair bit in transit but never the less emerges on the other side. However the Subugator is in a sorry state as it's drives and power systems badly damaged. They have life support and a few technical systems (including fabrication) functional and they might be able to salvage her.


...and some weapons, as I recall the heavy turbolasers have independent power sources.

The anomaly that spat them out is still there but going back the other way would be even more difficult and risky.


Define "risky", the Subjugator in her current state or an Imperator fresh out of Kuat? If the reverse trip is able to tear apart a fresh off the line ISD via subspacial turbulence...then the crew may have to resign themselves to never returning home. If the Subjagator could however survive after substantial repair, then the crew has a goal to achieve.

The only problem is that in a few days they are confronted by a dozen ships from something calling itself the "Starfleet" informing them that they are in the territory of the 'United Federation of Planets'.


That's an uncharacteristic show of force by our pacifist decedents. Starfleet even in Kirk's era typically only responds to an unidentified ship with a single vessel.

These Federals are also a bit ancy as they had recently faced an attack by a race of Cyborgs called "The Borg" who nearly conquered their capital planet and had done considerable damage to their fleet at a place called "Wolf 359".


That would explain the response....except for the part where starfleet at this time was spread razor thin, deployments along the Cardassian border, the Romulan Neutral Zone, etc. The 359 armada was Starfleets only reserve element (at that, most of those ships were puled from leave, mothballs, and yard repairs.)

The captain of the Subjugator, having had the crap kicked out of his ship and under considerable stress for the past year surrenders to these locals.


I doubt that very much.

Federation protocol with unidentified ships is to execute first contact diplomacy, the Imperial captain would be inclined to accept aid after he plays along with the offered olive branch, he and his staff would still be in control, the Federation is a welcome easement providing medical aid to injured Imperial crew and basic repair to the Subjugator's critical systems.

With the cooperation of the surviving crew and with the aid of the fabrication gear on board in a period of a few years the Subjugator is returned to about 80% of it's effectiveness while it's depleted supply of parasite craft are replaced. As word of a new threat called "The Dominion" begins to rear its ugly head the restored USS Sugjugator leaves Utoptia Planetia as Starfleet's largest starship.

What happens?
[

None of that last bit.

The Subjugator would coopt the Defiant program, she'd likely be permanently berthed at Starbase 324 for reverse engineering and research. The end product of the Defiant program would be based off of Imperial technology, a low grade durasteel armored hull and a basic turbolaser system. Likely a rudimentary Hyperdrive (it can "skip" a couple hundred lightyears before requiring recharge) also included. Later down the line The Sovereign Class is radically different, effectively a Federation copy of the Subjugator (only a far slower hyperdrive and HTL's at a fraction the power, because of industrial constraints.)

When the Dominion War approaches the Imperials would be tapped as advisers and the Stormtrooper contingent serving as the core of a new Federation army. On top of that I'd imagine that at some point Section 31 would pull a few strings and get Starbase 324 to restore the Subjugator to combat effectiveness and shuffle what Imperials they can to man their old ship (S31 and the Imperials are birds of a feather.) and an Imperial/S31 crew takes the Subjugator out on a "tour" of the Gamma Quadrant.

When the war ends and the Bajor wormhole restored, Odo and the female Founder find a devastated Dominion, nothing left. The Founder's new homeworld is a burnt cinder enshrouded by rings of debris (the Dominion Armada, pulverized by turbolaser fire.) The armistice is broken and the remnants of the Dominion fight a Jihad to the death.

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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby U.P. Cinnabar » 2016-06-01 03:57pm

FedRebel wrote:That's an uncharacteristic show of force by our pacifist decedents. Starfleet even in Kirk's era typically only responds to an unidentified ship with a single vessel.


That's usually because the Enterprise is The Only Ship In the Quadrant. Even when she's three light years from the Solar System. For dramatic purposes of course.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby NecronLord » 2016-06-01 07:02pm

FedRebel wrote:
The only problem is that in a few days they are confronted by a dozen ships from something calling itself the "Starfleet" informing them that they are in the territory of the 'United Federation of Planets'.


That's an uncharacteristic show of force by our pacifist decedents. Starfleet even in Kirk's era typically only responds to an unidentified ship with a single vessel.



Depends where and when. That's obviously a known threat vessel, but at this point they had eighteen ships in position to respond.
That would explain the response....except for the part where starfleet at this time was spread razor thin, deployments along the Cardassian border, the Romulan Neutral Zone, etc. The 359 armada was Starfleets only reserve element (at that, most of those ships were puled from leave, mothballs, and yard repairs.)
Or the ship was just encountered by a fleet of Federation ships going somewhere else.
I doubt that very much.

Federation protocol with unidentified ships is to execute first contact diplomacy, the Imperial captain would be inclined to accept aid after he plays along with the offered olive branch, he and his staff would still be in control, the Federation is a welcome easement providing medical aid to injured Imperial crew and basic repair to the Subjugator's critical systems.
Agreed
The Subjugator would coopt the Defiant program, she'd likely be permanently berthed at Starbase 324 for reverse engineering and research. The end product of the Defiant program would be based off of Imperial technology, a low grade durasteel armored hull and a basic turbolaser system. Likely a rudimentary Hyperdrive (it can "skip" a couple hundred lightyears before requiring recharge) also included. Later down the line The Sovereign Class is radically different, effectively a Federation copy of the Subjugator (only a far slower hyperdrive and HTL's at a fraction the power, because of industrial constraints.)
None of this seems probable. They simply don't have the logistics and infrastructure to replicate any of these things. Look at Cloud City; Starfleet has very few facilities on that scale, and that's a 'small' mining operation, said in various sources to cover tibanna gas needed for turbolasers and blasters. And forging these super-materials means advancing the entire materials science of the federation.
When the Dominion War approaches the Imperials would be tapped as advisers and the Stormtrooper contingent serving as the core of a new Federation army. On top of that I'd imagine that at some point Section 31 would pull a few strings and get Starbase 324 to restore the Subjugator to combat effectiveness and shuffle what Imperials they can to man their old ship (S31 and the Imperials are birds of a feather.) and an Imperial/S31 crew takes the Subjugator out on a "tour" of the Gamma Quadrant.

When the war ends and the Bajor wormhole restored, Odo and the female Founder find a devastated Dominion, nothing left. The Founder's new homeworld is a burnt cinder enshrouded by rings of debris (the Dominion Armada, pulverized by turbolaser fire.) The armistice is broken and the remnants of the Dominion fight a Jihad to the death.

There's no reason to believe they could restore it in any meaningful way.

Stop and consider if you'd say the borg could integrate the technology if they found an Imperial Crew and assimilated them? It may be that you're used to imperials being able to operate Imperial stuff just fine you just presume they could continue to do so, but reverse engineering suffers problems beyond simple operational knowledge, there's a massive issue of logistical train, engineering knowhow in the actual building of the ships, and the fuel to run them, the forges to create the equipment used, and so on. Even with the help of the crew, the Federation will never produce a turbolaser in a workable timescale, if that requires even one component that the crew simply swap out, rather than manufacture on site, and don't know how to produce.
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Re: Starfleet gains the Imperial Class USS Subjugator

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2016-06-01 07:42pm

FedRebel wrote:
These Federals are also a bit ancy as they had recently faced an attack by a race of Cyborgs called "The Borg" who nearly conquered their capital planet and had done considerable damage to their fleet at a place called "Wolf 359".


That would explain the response....except for the part where starfleet at this time was spread razor thin, deployments along the Cardassian border, the Romulan Neutral Zone, etc. The 359 armada was Starfleets only reserve element (at that, most of those ships were puled from leave, mothballs, and yard repairs.)


Where do you get the idea that the Wolf 359 fleet was mostly pulled from mothballs and yard work? I can't recall anything being said on that; I think you're getting it confused with Picard's task force in "Redemption." The same goes for it being "the only reserve element."
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