A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

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Khaat
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Khaat » 2016-01-12 01:44pm

A single lost Star Destroyer encountering a Trek scout ship (who sensibly runs), a Federation colony world, then the "massed fleet" of Trek ships rallied in defense against the "juggernaut" would be neat: the SD could have suffered hyperdrive problems, very limited intelligence of the surrounds, and maybe even plays up the "ah, cousins! let's talk!" thing (which plays into Trek's resolution for everything social) before opening up the fight.
- no established heroes
- it would be localized
- it would be "small scale": a single Star Destroyer, a single Federation planet, the remote has-as-can Federation fleet
- it would let each side eat their cake and still have it: Trek would have warp speed (rendered mostly pointless by the absence of reason to use it - apart from running), transporters (rendered useless by alloys in the SD hull, shields, or even just ECM), and even the opportunity to examine the culture of the Empire (with a peaceful visit - via shuttle, "the juggernaut is built solely for war: there are no civilians aboard, and while their sensors are quite powerful, they have little to no interest in exploration.") Wars would have the insane firepower, hull and shield durability, and a reason not to just open up a can of whoop-ass right away.
- it would be left "unresolved", with both sides claiming that if their heroes had been on-scene "it would have been different!", yet displaying the disparity.
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-01-12 06:29pm

Can you really see a studio going for "small scale" and "no established heroes"?

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Khaat » 2016-01-12 07:36pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Can you really see a studio going for "small scale" and "no established heroes"?

In today's Hollywood climate? Hells, no!
But we're already in the land of make-believe in that this isn't a reboot, re-imagining or other "re" word devoid of original story, character, or circumstance.

I can dream, can't I?
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby biostem » 2016-01-12 07:36pm

It would most certainly have to be character driven, rather than tech-based. Perhaps the Imperial side would be given orders to hold back their capital ships, and a lot would focus on masses of TIEs fighting federation capital ships. The more far-reaching trips would be entirely carried out by Imperial vessels - maybe a Star Destroyer brings an Intrepid or similarly sized vessel into its bay as a sort of cooperative endeavor - perhaps there's some isolation mandated between the factions, and this is one way to get a Federation presence into more distant areas, (it doesn't have to be all-out war, after all).

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-01-12 07:56pm

Khaat wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Can you really see a studio going for "small scale" and "no established heroes"?

In today's Hollywood climate? Hells, no!
But we're already in the land of make-believe in that this isn't a reboot, re-imagining or other "re" word devoid of original story, character, or circumstance.

I can dream, can't I?


Oh, their are lots of non-reboot films made. And this would hardly be original, as it features established franchises and crossovers are a big thing these days (credit Marvel for that).

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby biostem » 2016-01-12 08:00pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Khaat wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Can you really see a studio going for "small scale" and "no established heroes"?

In today's Hollywood climate? Hells, no!
But we're already in the land of make-believe in that this isn't a reboot, re-imagining or other "re" word devoid of original story, character, or circumstance.

I can dream, can't I?


Oh, their are lots of non-reboot films made. And this would hardly be original, as it features established franchises and crossovers are a big thing these days (credit Marvel for that).



Hell, I'd be happy to see an Alien vs Predator movie that brought in the Colonial Marines, (have it take place sometime between Alien and Alien 3, or just have it be a retcon of the events after Aliens, where Ripley, Hicks, and Newt survive.

Back on topic, It'd be interesting to have the Imperial vessel arrive on the Delta quadrant, have to deal with the species there, and have Federation long-range observatories detect the vessel somehow, and have events build up until the eventual confrontation...

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-01-12 08:17pm

One question is the issue of bringing back old actors. Unless you want to recast or use a reboot timeline, you're going to have a hard time finding actors who aren't old or dead, or at least visibly older (except for ST era Star Wars).

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Borgholio » 2016-01-12 08:23pm

If they did it now, much of the crew of TNG does look older but are still in decent shape. They could set this in the future when they're old and retired and have to come back to defend the Federation.
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-01-12 08:50pm

I was actually thinking of using some people from Voyager. Yes, its reviled on this site (and not without reason), but it has its fans, and bringing back some stuff from Voyager would provide an opportunity to salvage some of its wasted potential (and hey, Star Trek Online did some moderately interesting things with Voyager).

Specifically, the Paris family. Tom would make a decent Trek lead/Captain, I think. He's fairly young and only a Lt. in Voyager, so he could be an up and coming captain now. Plus he has a daughter (a supposed chosen one no less) who is nonetheless not really established in the show (meaning easier to recast and allowing freedom/flexibility for the writers) and can be used for a "next generation" protagonist. Torres obviously comes along as well. And Admiral Paris could maybe show up too for political/command level plots.

You could even have them mirror the Skywalker/Solo family in a way.

Patrick Stewart would be offered a supporting role as a senior dignitary or admiral. Call him the Obi-wan/Yoda analog in the sense of being the wise old leader.

The Borg queen could be recast for a Trek side villain, since there's already precedent for that.

Since I'd be using the Borg and some of the Voyager cast, it would be easy to work Seven in. And purely as a matter of favouritism, I'd try to give Garrack an espionage subplot or something. Bring back Basher as well (the actor's still relatively young) for the double act those two had. :)

I'd probably try to set it during the Sequel Trilogy era for Star Wars, so no cast problems except it sucks that [spoiler=]Solo is dead.[/spoiler] :(

Edit: I'll add that this way, all three post-TOS shows are represented in the main cast.

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Khaat » 2016-01-13 11:55am

Romulan Republic wrote:Oh, their are lots of non-reboot films made. And this would hardly be original, as it features established franchises and crossovers are a big thing these days (credit Marvel for that).

"Original" in that it isn't the same story they've told before, with the same characters (recast as necessary).
The idea of "crossover" itself isn't "original", but a feature-length film with a SW/ST crossover hasn't been done.
A reboot is just canonized fanfiction: "let's take those same characters we love and do this with them!" At least ST:TNG picked up with a new crew and a new Enterprise. This is what I want to see: something new in a familiar framework.
I'd just rather have new characters in the established universe(s) doing something we haven't seen before in film. We already know that not every Starfleet captain is like Kirk (or Picard, or Janeway, or Cisco, or Archer). I'd like to see more of that that variety, same as for an Imperial captain and his officers.

Of course, right now, in my head the Imperial captain is playing like Marius in The Hunt for Red October....
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Borgholio » 2016-01-13 12:43pm

Of course, right now, in my head the Imperial captain is playing like Marius in The Hunt for Red October....


You mean Ramius. :-P But I do like your ideas. If we had an overly aggressive Starfleet captain, that could serve as trigger for a conflict, and we could also see a "reasonable" Imperial captain who doesn't simply want to blow up everything in his path, but actually wants to try to come to a non-violent solution. Could make for some unexpected and interesting dynamics.
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Khaat » 2016-01-13 01:01pm

Marco Ramius = Marius [/in my head]
It's early, my brain is still waiting for caffeine.
... or I was giving him a Wars name! Yeah, that's it! :)
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Lord Revan » 2016-01-13 01:42pm

"Marius" is IIRC real roman name so it could work as name for a human Starfleet captain especially if paired with a "traditional" american last name.

I mean Kirk's second name was Tiberius another roman(aka latin) name and the 2009 implied it was the first name of one of Jim Kirk's grandfather's.
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Khaat » 2016-01-13 01:47pm

Aye, I know Marius is a Terran (Latin origin) name.
I was running with "combination of first syllable first name & last syllable last name (& first pet's name was supposed to be in there somewhere?) for your Star Wars name". :)
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-01-13 05:08pm

Khaat wrote:
Romulan Republic wrote:Oh, their are lots of non-reboot films made. And this would hardly be original, as it features established franchises and crossovers are a big thing these days (credit Marvel for that).

"Original" in that it isn't the same story they've told before, with the same characters (recast as necessary).
The idea of "crossover" itself isn't "original", but a feature-length film with a SW/ST crossover hasn't been done.


I suppose that's true.

A reboot is just canonized fanfiction: "let's take those same characters we love and do this with them!" At least ST:TNG picked up with a new crew and a new Enterprise. This is what I want to see: something new in a familiar framework.


Actually, "...something new in a familiar framework." is exactly what a reboot is.

I love reboots because they let writers try a new take on a concept, more free of the constraints of past mistakes and continuity. Long running franchises generally should get a reboot, or a partial reboot like Star Wars got with the EU, every so often.

I'd just rather have new characters in the established universe(s) doing something we haven't seen before in film. We already know that not every Starfleet captain is like Kirk (or Picard, or Janeway, or Cisco, or Archer). I'd like to see more of that that variety, same as for an Imperial captain and his officers.


Of course, right now, in my head the Imperial captain is playing like Marius in The Hunt for Red October....[/quote]

New characters are good, but people will want to see the old heroes too.

And Sisko is spelled with an s.

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Elheru Aran » 2016-01-13 05:15pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
A reboot is just canonized fanfiction: "let's take those same characters we love and do this with them!" At least ST:TNG picked up with a new crew and a new Enterprise. This is what I want to see: something new in a familiar framework.


Actually, "...something new in a familiar framework." is exactly what a reboot is.

I love reboots because they let writers try a new take on a concept, more free of the constraints of past mistakes and continuity. Long running franchises generally should get a reboot, or a partial reboot like Star Wars got with the EU, every so often.


Arguably, a reboot is an entirely new starting over from scratch version of the original. It's a new framework in its own right. TNG wasn't a reboot under that criteria since it was using the TOS framework, merely moved up a couple of centuries. Nu-Trek is a reboot as it starts over entirely and creates a new universe to work in. Alternatively, you could view DS9 as a more legitimate 'reboot' of the Trek universe as it changes the context considerably.

For comparison, Star Wars: TFA is like TNG to SW:ANH's TOS.
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Khaat » 2016-01-13 05:27pm

Star Trek (2009) was a reboot: recast Kirk, Spock, Scotty, etc, but change the continuity and make the same kind of story*.
Dukes of Hazzard (2005) was a reboot: recast Bo, Luke, Daisy and make the same kind of story.
BattleStar Galactica (2004-2009) was a reboot: recast "Apollo", "Starbuck", Commander Adama and make the same kind of story.

Star Trek: the Next Generation was not a reboot: new characters in an extension of a previously explored continuum.
Star Wars: The Force Awakens is not a reboot: new (mostly) characters in an extension of a previously explored continuum.

Sequels extend a story, reboots take the favorite bits and use them without continuity. I would certainly not consider the Die Hard films to be "reboots" even though every one is the same story: John MacLaine kicks but after being established as being an "underdog".
Agent 47 is a reboot, since it breaks the established continuity of Hitman (2007).

*Yes, I can see that from the internally consistent narrative the "alternative timeline" could be argued as a "sequel", except that things were different before the Narada went back in time (and that it actually predates any of the other Trek films and is independent of them except for the parts they wanted to keep, so not a "prequel".)

Yes, I spelled Sisko wrong, I hear it more than I read it. Mea culpa.
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-01-13 07:12pm

Star Trek's tricky. Its technically an alternate timeline in the same reality/continuity, but beyond the events that set up the new timeline, there's little interaction with the original timeline, so its functionally a reboot for the most part, albeit one that acknowledges the existence of the original continuity.

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Marko Dash » 2016-01-13 07:18pm

the lone destroyer angle set's you up for a sequel pretty well. treat the ISD like the normal enemy superweapon of the week that gets defeated by superior numbers and tactics and then in the after credits stinger more anomalies appear and a surprise sector fleet appears. which would then require a team-up of most of the major trek powers in the next movie.

you get a moment like just after long night of solace in halo reach where the supercarrier is destroyed but then you start hearing *slipspace rupture detected* over and over and the fleet of peculiar justice shows up.
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby biostem » 2016-01-13 07:20pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Star Trek's tricky. Its technically an alternate timeline in the same reality/continuity, but beyond the events that set up the new timeline, there's little interaction with the original timeline, so its functionally a reboot for the most part, albeit one that acknowledges the existence of the original continuity.


Agreed - Prime Spock recognized Pine's Kirk as Shatner's Kirk, so it's not a complete reboot...

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-01-13 07:24pm

Marko Dash wrote:the lone destroyer angle set's you up for a sequel pretty well. treat the ISD like the normal enemy superweapon of the week that gets defeated by superior numbers and tactics and then in the after credits stinger more anomalies appear and a surprise sector fleet appears. which would then require a team-up of most of the major trek powers in the next movie.

you get a moment like just after long night of solace in halo reach where the supercarrier is destroyed but then you start hearing *slipspace rupture detected* over and over and the fleet of peculiar justice shows up.


Well, an advantage of the "lone destroyer" is that it would allow a crossover without it interfering with either timeline too much. For Trek, as you say, it would just be another weird, hyper-powerful enemy of the week. For Star Wars... what's one destroyer more or less to the Empire?

It would also spare you the need to bring back or recast a bunch of past characters. Although if the new Star Wars continuity doesn't bring Thrawn back, you could make him the commander of the lone ISD just to make the opposition more formidable and give die hard Star Wars fans a familiar face.

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Khaat » 2016-01-13 07:29pm

"The Empire is not in the business of misplacing fleets, Kohl. One ship, perhaps, but never a fleet."
damn fanfiction in my head GETITOUT!
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2016-01-13 07:35pm

One big problem with the "lone destroyer" scenario is that it precludes anyone from another faction on the Star Wars side... unless you've got some prisoners aboard the ISD or something...

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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby Marko Dash » 2016-01-13 07:54pm

An ISD commanded by thrawn would require one hell of a plot bunny to defeat.
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Re: A teaser you did not see comming (RAR!)

Postby biostem » 2016-01-13 07:58pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:One big problem with the "lone destroyer" scenario is that it precludes anyone from another faction on the Star Wars side... unless you've got some prisoners aboard the ISD or something...



Easy - the ISD had taken some rebel ship into its hold or something, and the trip to the AQ caused a loss of power or allowed said vessel to free itself and escape.


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