How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-23 09:58pm

Batman wrote:That was also the E-D, whose Warp core is infamous for going up if somebody looks at it crossly. The Flight I Galaxies are notorious for having instable Warp cores. In TWOK The E-Nil blew a Warp nacelle clean off the Reliant and all that happened was...the ship no longer had that Warp nacelle.


That's very true. As I recall we see Galaxy class ships take much heavier damage during the Dominion War and they aren't ready to go boom at the slightest touch (I'm specifically thinking of one at Chin'toka when the defence grid comes online).

As for Flight I Galaxies being explodey, year, three of six destroyed by warp core breach in, what, a seven-year span at most? And people think the Miranda's have a bad record.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Borgholio » 2015-10-23 10:09pm

The old Connies were built like tanks. The Constellation had the shit kicked out of her by the Planet Killer and still was still (mostly) intact. Then the Enterprise herself (and the Enterprise-A) both sustained multiple torpedo hits to the engineering section (and the one in ST-6 that went clean through the secondary hull) and they never exploded. I think clearly the Flight-1 Galaxies was never intended for heavy combat or survivability. Despite everything, I don't think the Galaxies had any design flaws that would have manifested themselves if they were survey ships normally kept behind safe borders. They were just put into harms way far more often than the designers intended, and that's when they started to break.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-23 10:17pm

That's possible, though I also like the theory that the ships were bigger and heavier than anything they'd built before and the Flight 1's were rushed into production before they'd worked out the kinks. It would certainly explain why, after Generations, we never see Galaxies suffer so much as before.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Borgholio » 2015-10-23 10:21pm

Sure, that's as good an idea as any. Even the Yamato's captain mentioned that they may have rushed the Galaxies out of the shipyards too quickly. Of course, his ship was being taken apart by that computer virus...but he wouldn't have made such a comment if he knew for certain the design and construction process was sound.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-24 05:30am

Borgholio wrote:Sure, that's as good an idea as any. Even the Yamato's captain mentioned that they may have rushed the Galaxies out of the shipyards too quickly. Of course, his ship was being taken apart by that computer virus...but he wouldn't have made such a comment if he knew for certain the design and construction process was sound.


Riker and Geordi said the same thing - until they realsed it was a virus that was doing it - they considered is it actually a design flaw.

A virus that took down the containment field - that's not a design flaw, it's the same as switching off the field - it will explode. Any class ship would have done the same.

Could be considered a software flaw - equivalents of firewalls and such that didn't work but not a physical design flaw.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Captain Seafort » 2015-10-24 05:35am

Batman wrote:That was also the E-D, whose Warp core is infamous for going up if somebody looks at it crossly. The Flight I Galaxies are notorious for having instable Warp cores. In TWOK The E-Nil blew a Warp nacelle clean off the Reliant and all that happened was...the ship no longer had that Warp nacelle.


We also saw the Odyssey suffer repeated nacelle hits, and a reported plasma leak in the port nacelle (i.e. exactly the sort of damage that killed the E-D in Cause and Effect). There was never any indication she was in danger of destruction from that damage, and Keogh clearly expected her to be able to restore warp drive and retreat before the Jem'Hadar kamikaze run. Whatever problems the Batch 1s had, the Odyssey was clearly an improved model.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-10-25 08:43pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
Batman wrote:That was also the E-D, whose Warp core is infamous for going up if somebody looks at it crossly. The Flight I Galaxies are notorious for having instable Warp cores. In TWOK The E-Nil blew a Warp nacelle clean off the Reliant and all that happened was...the ship no longer had that Warp nacelle.


That's very true. As I recall we see Galaxy class ships take much heavier damage during the Dominion War and they aren't ready to go boom at the slightest touch (I'm specifically thinking of one at Chin'toka when the defence grid comes online).

As for Flight I Galaxies being explodey, year, three of six destroyed by warp core breach in, what, a seven-year span at most? And people think the Miranda's have a bad record.

Probably because of this scene from DS9 :D
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-25 09:12pm

Which acually shows them being quite tough until they come up against really heavy weapons. Just before the two Galaxies rip that Galor apart, we see one Miranda have the rear half of it's port nacelle shot away, and then the two ships following Defiant? Well, one again loses half it's nacelle, then get's hit with a weapon that blows away a third or so of the saucer and flips the ship end over end, and the other gets holed clean through and then hit by another heavy weapon in the aft section where we know from TWOK the warp drive is located.

Old starships die when hit by vastly superior weapons. What a shock. By that logic I could say the Excelsior's all suck after we see one get totalled by the Borg at Wolf 359.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-25 09:30pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Which acually shows them being quite tough until they come up against really heavy weapons. Just before the two Galaxies rip that Galor apart, we see one Miranda have the rear half of it's port nacelle shot away, and then the two ships following Defiant? Well, one again loses half it's nacelle, then get's hit with a weapon that blows away a third or so of the saucer and flips the ship end over end, and the other gets holed clean through and then hit by another heavy weapon in the aft section where we know from TWOK the warp drive is located.

Old starships die when hit by vastly superior weapons. What a shock. By that logic I could say the Excelsior's all suck after we see one get totalled by the Borg at Wolf 359.

yeah we got remember that by this time the Miranda design was about 100 years old (IIRC ST2 was in 2280s and Dominion War was in 2370s) and while the Mirandas used in TNG and DS9 were probably modernized there's only so much that can do and the underlying construction dated to Kirk era.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Joun_Lord » 2015-10-25 10:27pm

Those Mirandas did go down like they were wearing Red Shirts but managed to stay mostly intact despite getting hit multiple times even in the Nacelles, they didn't just explode. They probably had survivors and could probably even be partially salvaged (I always had a vision in my head of late in the Dominion war of frankenstein ships built from the wrecked hulls of fallen vessels considering the amount of downed but mostly intact ships the show showed and their lack of ships to the point of using century old designs). Despite being a century old facing new ships. Shows that whatever else the Kirk era ships were built to last.

I wonder if maybe structural integrity fields that you hear about sometimes in the TNG era led to ships of that era being less heavily built. Did they have the same tech back in the Kirk era.

Also kinda funny watching that video and suddenly seeing the Archer Enterprise flying around upside down.

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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-25 10:40pm

To be honest, I have no problems telling the NX-class and the Akira class apart. the Akira looks alot bulkier due to having a a secondary section under the saucer and forward swept pylons, while the NX has no secondary hull and backward swept pylons. it's really only from the top view that too look that much alike and even then you tell them apart by pylon configuration.

Given the limits they had to work with the design team for Enterprise did a good job at making the NX-01 look like a new ship and not just a copy of pre-existing class like it was orginally intended.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Joun_Lord » 2015-10-25 10:52pm

Lord Revan wrote:To be honest, I have no problems telling the NX-class and the Akira class apart. the Akira looks alot bulkier due to having a a secondary section under the saucer and forward swept pylons, while the NX has no secondary hull and backward swept pylons. it's really only from the top view that too look that much alike and even then you tell them apart by pylon configuration.


Well any the shot of the Akira in that video was just for a second so I couldn't get a good look but the NX and Akira look pretty similar. Pictures I've seen around the net seem to confirm they aren't identical but still very very similar.

Image

Image

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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-25 11:55pm

Yeah they're similar but far from identical, even if I made mistake with the pylons, well sort of they're both backwards swept but on the Akira the pylons attach more backwards to the nacelles bringining the tips more forward.

Maybe I'm just sick of people treating the NX like it was practically identical to the Akira (up to point that you couldn't tell those 2 classes apart without looking really carefully and even then you might make a mistake).

as I said given the limitations they were working under the Enterprise design team did a great job, while it's similar to the Akira, it's still unique enough to be its own thing and not just a lazy copy.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-27 05:51am

The producers actually wanted an Akira class. Not a similar model, they actually wanted an Akira class.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-27 07:21am

Prometheus Unbound wrote:The producers actually wanted an Akira class. Not a similar model, they actually wanted an Akira class.

yeah and the design team said "no way that's silly" and NX-class is a compromise between what the producers wanted and what the design team wanted.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-10-27 02:28pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Prometheus Unbound wrote:The producers actually wanted an Akira class. Not a similar model, they actually wanted an Akira class.

yeah and the design team said "no way that's silly" and NX-class is a compromise between what the producers wanted and what the design team wanted.

It's almost like they wanted to increase the number of canon violations :lol:

I'm glad it turned out the way it did, the warp nacelles clearly paid homage to the Phoenix. And angling the nacelles up instead of down also brought it more into line with the other Enterprises.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-27 03:10pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Prometheus Unbound wrote:The producers actually wanted an Akira class. Not a similar model, they actually wanted an Akira class.

yeah and the design team said "no way that's silly" and NX-class is a compromise between what the producers wanted and what the design team wanted.



Just one guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g39o0p9Uctk

Here he is being interviewed :)

Enjoy (and it's a good channel). Approx 5 mins in, i think, but the entire video is worth it.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-27 05:09pm

Prometheus Unbound wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
Prometheus Unbound wrote:The producers actually wanted an Akira class. Not a similar model, they actually wanted an Akira class.

yeah and the design team said "no way that's silly" and NX-class is a compromise between what the producers wanted and what the design team wanted.



Just one guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g39o0p9Uctk

Here he is being interviewed :)

Enjoy (and it's a good channel). Approx 5 mins in, i think, but the entire video is worth it.

Well it was 1 guy with enough pull to get the design altered so it doesn't really matter and even in Star Trek your "grunt" designers rarely have opinions on such matters either way.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-28 08:19am

Well, he had to get Herman Zimmerman to step up and fight his corner - note he called Berman "Mr Berman" and seems quite... reluctant to call him out on it. Doug wasn't high up, he was just picked because he was good at it.

But Berman literally wanted an Akira class ship from 2374 to be the hero ship of the new show based in 215x.

Why? Because it was a popular design. That there is a classic example of shitty producers on Trek not understanding their own show. We like the Akira cos it's cool, yes. But we're TREKKIES. We're nerds. You think we wont notice it's the same ship 200 years early? He actually thought we wouldn't. He has that little regard for the fandom.

I'm glad Doug and Herman managed to talk him out of it.


Berman does that all the time. Hey, ST2 was popular... let's make Shinzon a "Khan" character! People like Data, right? Let's give him a brother. Another one. For no reason.

etc etc. He's all visual, no substance.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-28 09:14am

One of Rick Berman's major faults is that played it always safe while TOS, TNG and DS9 were willing to take risks in their storytelling VOY or pre-season 4 ENT not so much. Another reason is as you stated he had a problem of not understanding his own audience or franchice, for example trying to make a "khan" character for Picard even though Picard already had such character in the Borg Collective, so there was no need to make a "khan" character.

I'm sure that most people watching the show quickly accepted the NX-01 but they would have never accepted a literal copy of the Akira that's for sure, what I mean by that is that ENT wasn't killed by having a Hero ship that looked similar to the Akira class.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-28 03:17pm

Lord Revan wrote:ENT wasn't killed by having a Hero ship that looked similar to the Akira class.


Oh, not at all. But it looking so similar is one of the symptoms. Certainly not the cause. The cause is Berman and his... detachment to a media empire he was running. Even Bragga was pretty good during TNG, but once he got up there with Berman and had to conform, he became like him.

Moore at least had the sense to say fuck this shit and left in disgust.

NX looking like Akira? Not really an issue other than about 10 seconds of "heh" when I saw the pilot. I could even understand the reasoning that it looked like the Akira because Akira is popular. But Berman literally wanted an Akira as the hero ship. That's demented. I cannot imagine any other scifi show (or TV show) that would try and do that. You don't let the big guys on Broadwalk Empire have a Porche 911 just because they look good and people like them - because it doesn't fit and anyone with any knowledge of the era would immediately say "err.. no?" Berman genuinely thought the audience would like an Akira class in Enterprise because they liked it in STFC.


How that man came to be a producer at that level, I have no idea. Maybe he's a little like Lucas - when he has people watching over him or someone capable of saying "no, that's a bad idea, have you thought of this instead", a good vision, good producers, good story tellers. But take Berman off the leach and it's like a 5 year old with some crayons and some bad acid tabs.

He's clearly not retarded or stupid - you can't be to get to that level. But he really had no idea about his own franchise (a multi billion dollar franchise) or the fan base.

I can honestly see the conversation going something like this:


B: And the ship, I want it like that one from the Borg film.

X: The Enterprise?

B: No, no that small one that's upside down. You know *waves hand* the one the fans love.

X: *looks around at the others*

Y: Y... you mean the Akira?

B: The what?

Y: The ship that has the engines below it?

B: yeah! That one! The fans love that design!

.....

X: You want a design that looks similar to that?

B: Can't you just use that ship? The IT guys will have the blueprints for it, just replicate that. Change the name or something, I don't know. IT's already been designed... will probably save a bit too!

....

Y: Mr Berman, do you mean using the actual model from First con.. The Borg film?

B: Yeah! *sniffs nose a bit*

X: But Mr Berman, that ship is from 200 years in the future.

B: I thought Enterprise was 200 years in the future?

X: No.. well yes, sorry, I mean it's 200 years in the future for them.

B: Yeah - 200 years sounds about right. Mike, 150 years, 250? You can do something in the encyclopedia for that right?

MO: Errr.....

B: What's the deal? The fans love it, we already have the model for it, ... 200 years, 400... it's *waves hands* The Future! They won't know the difference. But don't call it Kira they'll think it's named after that woman on the station.

X: Errr...

Y: Errr...

B: Look, I gotta go to this casting session, sort it out and let me know by Wednesday, yeah? *sniffs a bit more*

X: Yes Sir, Mr Berman.


X, Y and MO exchange glances as he leaves.

Y: Is he serious?

X: I've never known him to joke.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby biostem » 2015-10-28 09:43pm

I agree that the 2 designs are extremely close in appearance, (save for being flipped). I'm surprised that they couldn't have used the overall design, but with a bit more distinction between them - there's nothing wrong with the saucer & blended engineering section, it's just that the 2 are just too close to one-another.

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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Batman » 2015-10-28 09:51pm

If Berman was hellbent on having an Akira anything that deviated too far from that would probably have been naysaid. Much as I hate ENT, if your only option is 'something Akiraish', the NX doesn't look half bad.
And why do fans love the Akira anyway? That ship is butt-ugly.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-28 10:07pm

Probably for the same reason people liked the Reliant/Miranda, it's a major shift from the Consitution-style designs that most previous Starfleet ships used. That we first see it helping to shoot the fuck out of a Borg cube helps, as does that ship having a really cool name (USS Thunderchild).

Basically, it's something different but still cool.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Borgholio » 2015-10-29 08:39am

as does that ship having a really cool name (USS Thunderchild).


I've always wanted to do a retelling of War of the Worlds where the Martians actually miscalculate and land their walkers in the 1940's or later instead of the 1890's. One of the scenes would involve a trio of walkers attacking escaping passenger ships, only to be taken out by a Dreadnought-class USS or HMS Thunderchild. :)
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