How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-15 05:31am

to be honest going faster enough in sub-light speeds needs a deflector, those dust clouds and micro meteoroids don't exist only in warp after all.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-10-20 09:45pm

The one consistent thing we know about warp travel is that you need warp nacelles for a ship to do it. The Prometheus class is one example, since all three sections are individually warp capable (the saucer section has two tiny nacelles that are normally retracted).
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Batman » 2015-10-20 10:09pm

Um-where exactly are the Warp nacelles on a K'Vort/B'rel or the cardassian ships?
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-21 10:16am

Cardassian ones have them on their wing tips.


A nacelle isn't *required*, it just seems to be the usual thing - Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Dominion... But then other races don't necessarily use them. Borg, Kazon, a few Klingon ships, Tholians, older Vulcan ships etc.

You need *something* to create a stable warp field. It doesn't have to be a nacelle.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-21 11:11am

Batman wrote:Um-where exactly are the Warp nacelles on a K'Vort/B'rel or the cardassian ships?

the 2 bulges on top of the main hull for the Klingon ships
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Ted C » 2015-10-22 11:48am

biostem wrote:
Ted C wrote:According to Geordi, it was "more power than our phasers and photon torpedoes could ever provide", so it has to put more energy into the target than a maximum-power phaser burst plus a full spread of torpedoes.

They also had to drop out of warp to use it, so the dish can presumably channel as much power as the warp drive.

It can presumably throw most of the output of the warp core at a target.


Kinda makes me wonder why they never bothered to develop it into a viable weapon. I suppose it'd kind of work like the weapon from B5, where the ship loses power for a while after firing it, and perhaps that was too much of a sacrifice to make. Alternatively, it could have been "too militaristic" for what they were going for at the time.


Or it may simply be impractical in most situations because of limited range, limited aiming abilities, reduced maneuverability and shielding when powering it, and assorted other technical problems.

The Borg ship was a big target that didn't maneuver much in combat situations, and it's prior performance suggested they would be able to drop shields to take a shot at it without being immediately destroyed. Being unshielded against most other opponents could easily result in their instant destruction.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-10-22 12:06pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Batman wrote:Um-where exactly are the Warp nacelles on a K'Vort/B'rel or the cardassian ships?

the 2 bulges on top of the main hull for the Klingon ships


Warp-nacelle design is a pretty individual thing among cultures, but in general the Federation and the Romulans are about the only ones who generally keep their nacelles particularly exposed. The Klingons tend to keep theirs a little closer in. It's either increased performance and vulnerability, or less performance but greater protection.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-22 12:20pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
Batman wrote:Um-where exactly are the Warp nacelles on a K'Vort/B'rel or the cardassian ships?

the 2 bulges on top of the main hull for the Klingon ships


Warp-nacelle design is a pretty individual thing among cultures, but in general the Federation and the Romulans are about the only ones who generally keep their nacelles particularly exposed. The Klingons tend to keep theirs a little closer in. It's either increased performance and vulnerability, or less performance but greater protection.

well it depends on the ship type really, on the BoP design they're practically invisible, while the D-7 line and the main cruiser from TNG (forgot the class name atm) have the nacelles more exposed at the "wingtips"
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-10-22 12:26pm

Negh'var. Yeah. The D-7 is straight-up a preliminary design, perhaps more of a 'cruiser' class, while the B'rel is more advanced and designed with more of a 'monitor' or 'armoured destroyer' feel. Negh'var is big enough that you would think they could fit the nacelles inside the body as well, but perhaps there are drawbacks to that design after a certain size limit-- the B'rel is generally not *that* big (ridiculous size inconsistencies aside). That would fit as many of the other near-nacelle designs are fairly small craft such as shuttles, the Defiant, or Jem'hadar beetles.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-22 12:51pm

By B'rel I assume you mean the Bird of Prey design. the TOS/TNG version of that seems the odd bird among klingon design (no pun intended) as it's the only one with no clearly visible nacelles, though it's small raider (it seems the intended size is 100-150m) so it could be that the Klingons thought exposed nacelles would be too easy to take out (there's after all no honor in getting disabled without firing a shot)
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-10-22 01:01pm

So in general we can probably assume that past a certain size the general rule that you have to have external nacelles becomes more true.

Where is the deflector on the B'rel anyway? That glowing ring on the front is the torpedo launcher...
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-22 01:09pm

Elheru Aran wrote:So in general we can probably assume that past a certain size the general rule that you have to have external nacelles becomes more true.

Where is the deflector on the B'rel anyway? That glowing ring on the front is the torpedo launcher...

well I'd say as rule of thumb you need external nacelles as the Scimitar has no indentifiable nacelles and it's the largest ship from the AQ powers we've seen so it can't be after certain size the nacelles have to be external.

and tbh only federation ships seem to have clear deflector dish, though a nav deflector is a must (even in there's no visible dish) since otherwise the ship would disintegrated the moment it hit anything then absolutely empty space.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-10-22 01:13pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:So in general we can probably assume that past a certain size the general rule that you have to have external nacelles becomes more true.

Where is the deflector on the B'rel anyway? That glowing ring on the front is the torpedo launcher...

well I'd say as rule of thumb you need external nacelles as the Scimitar has no indentifiable nacelles and it's the largest ship from the AQ powers we've seen so it can't be after certain size the nacelles have to be external.

and tbh only federation ships seem to have clear deflector dish, though a nav deflector is a must (even in there's no visible dish) since otherwise the ship would disintegrated the moment it hit anything then absolutely empty space.


Well the Scimitar is... strange. All the other Romulan ships have external nacelles, the Federation ships have external nacelles (some small craft and the Defiant types excepted), most of the Klingon ships that we've seen have nacelles, Jem'hadar ships have nacelles (I was wrong about the beetle ships), etc. The Cardassians and the B'rel are the only two that I distinctly recall not having external nacelles other than a few weird one-off alien ships and some STO ships like Breen craft.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-22 01:25pm

well one could argue that the cardassian designs and the Defiant have "external" nacelles as well just with pylons that are integrated to the hull, especially the cardassian designs as it's pretty clear that the "wings" only hold the warp nacelles.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Crazedwraith » 2015-10-22 01:42pm

um... What? Where in any canon sources are we getting the locations for the BoP or Cardassian nacelles?
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-22 01:48pm

I can't remember if there was canon sources for the TOS/TNG BoP (the ENT version has clear nacelles on that spot though), but the model for cardassian ships have what look like bussard collector at leading edge of the "wings" or "Cobra head" depening what you want to call it, well the ones that use the Galor base design anyway.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Crazedwraith » 2015-10-22 01:57pm

Yes, they have glowy bits on. But its just a complete guess that they're bussard collectors.

It also a glowy bit on the front that looks like a navigator deflector but is actually a big fuck off gun.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-22 05:40pm

I thought the Scimitar did have nacelles, it certainly had two large pod-type structure mounted after on it's topside. Maybe they decided to armour them rather than leave them exposed. It was designed to be a super-duper warship after all.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-22 05:42pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I thought the Scimitar did have nacelles, it certainly had two large pod-type structure mounted after on it's topside. Maybe they decided to armour them rather than leave them exposed. It was designed to be a super-duper warship after all.

it certainly has something there but it's never stated in canon if those are nacelles or not.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2015-10-23 05:32am

Crazedwraith wrote:Yes, they have glowy bits on. But its just a complete guess that they're bussard collectors.

It also a glowy bit on the front that looks like a navigator deflector but is actually a big fuck off gun.


Image

Image



They're meant to be warp engines. I don't think anyone pointed it out in the show, but AFAIK that's how it was designed.

Tom Hudson (model maker): "Lighting was set up in several circuits: impulse engines, collectors, windows, navigational deflector, navigational beacons. Windows and the navigational deflector were lit with custom neon tubes; other lights were incandescent bulbs."


Those are indeed busard collectors according to the creator.


EDIT: and that red bit at the front which later became a phaser array, was originally the deflector.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby LaCroix » 2015-10-23 05:51am

The Klingons and Cardassians are also the most warlike factions. Makes sense that they would have tried to armor the warp drive. Even the bigger Klingon ships do have at least big parts the outer side of the (very sturdy wing-mounted) nacelles armored. Actually, the Romulan Warbird has the outer side covered, too. Only the Federation has them completely exposed.

I'ts probably a function of size and maybe energy? As in heat/radiation output - they do glow, so there is at least visible spectrum light being emitted - if they are big, you need them at least partially exposed or invest into something to deal with whatever the problem is. To me, the Warbird drive (only half exposed) glows a lot brighter than the Enterprise nacelles. And coincidentally, the Romulans left the space the glow is directed at empty. Same for the Klingons - the glowy sections are very bright, and always directed away from the main body.

The Federation (would be in-character for them) is probably even more risk-averse to the potential health hazard and puts them well away from the populated ship sections in most of their designs, accepting the structural drawback. Which might not be an issue - after all, the usual encounters are 1-1 types due to the scarcity of big warships. Shooting their warpdrives off only prevents them from running away, and while the enemy is targeting that, they can attack their weapons systems. Thus, the enemy usually doesn't waste time shooting the nacelles until the Federation ship has already lost the fight. Against multiple enemies, that doesn't hold true as good, but chances are that if you meet multiple enemies and don't run away before they disable your shields, you are fucked, anyway.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Ted C » 2015-10-23 07:45am

LaCroix wrote:The Federation (would be in-character for them) is probably even more risk-averse to the potential health hazard and puts them well away from the populated ship sections in most of their designs, accepting the structural drawback. Which might not be an issue - after all, the usual encounters are 1-1 types due to the scarcity of big warships. Shooting their warpdrives off only prevents them from running away, and while the enemy is targeting that, they can attack their weapons systems. Thus, the enemy usually doesn't waste time shooting the nacelles until the Federation ship has already lost the fight. Against multiple enemies, that doesn't hold true as good, but chances are that if you meet multiple enemies and don't run away before they disable your shields, you are fucked, anyway.


Shooting the warp drive should be a priority if you want to destroy the ship. Cracking open a nacelle can throw a Galaxy-class starship out of control and blow it up completely. We saw it happen in "Cause and Effect".
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby LaCroix » 2015-10-23 09:16am

Ted C wrote:
LaCroix wrote:The Federation (would be in-character for them) is probably even more risk-averse to the potential health hazard and puts them well away from the populated ship sections in most of their designs, accepting the structural drawback. Which might not be an issue - after all, the usual encounters are 1-1 types due to the scarcity of big warships. Shooting their warpdrives off only prevents them from running away, and while the enemy is targeting that, they can attack their weapons systems. Thus, the enemy usually doesn't waste time shooting the nacelles until the Federation ship has already lost the fight. Against multiple enemies, that doesn't hold true as good, but chances are that if you meet multiple enemies and don't run away before they disable your shields, you are fucked, anyway.


Shooting the warp drive should be a priority if you want to destroy the ship. Cracking open a nacelle can throw a Galaxy-class starship out of control and blow it up completely. We saw it happen in "Cause and Effect".


Once.
If it were a predictable result, then we'd see everyone always target the nacelles of all enemy ships. Still, everyone keeps aiming for the hull (and weapon systems, it seems, because they usually fail quite early in fights)

Since we must assume that these crews are competent in what they are doing, they obviously have reasons to prioritize other target areas.
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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby biostem » 2015-10-23 09:24pm

LaCroix wrote:The Klingons and Cardassians are also the most warlike factions. Makes sense that they would have tried to armor the warp drive. Even the bigger Klingon ships do have at least big parts the outer side of the (very sturdy wing-mounted) nacelles armored. Actually, the Romulan Warbird has the outer side covered, too. Only the Federation has them completely exposed.

I'ts probably a function of size and maybe energy? As in heat/radiation output - they do glow, so there is at least visible spectrum light being emitted - if they are big, you need them at least partially exposed or invest into something to deal with whatever the problem is. To me, the Warbird drive (only half exposed) glows a lot brighter than the Enterprise nacelles. And coincidentally, the Romulans left the space the glow is directed at empty. Same for the Klingons - the glowy sections are very bright, and always directed away from the main body.

The Federation (would be in-character for them) is probably even more risk-averse to the potential health hazard and puts them well away from the populated ship sections in most of their designs, accepting the structural drawback. Which might not be an issue - after all, the usual encounters are 1-1 types due to the scarcity of big warships. Shooting their warpdrives off only prevents them from running away, and while the enemy is targeting that, they can attack their weapons systems. Thus, the enemy usually doesn't waste time shooting the nacelles until the Federation ship has already lost the fight. Against multiple enemies, that doesn't hold true as good, but chances are that if you meet multiple enemies and don't run away before they disable your shields, you are fucked, anyway.


My take on it is one of efficiency - perhaps an exposed design with less bulky nacelles permits a less energy intensive creation of a warp field - adding all that armor and moving the nacelles closer to the hull may place greater demands on main reactor - a trade off that more militaristic factions would be willing to accept.

The other issue is that very few fights we see in Star Trek involve one party actually losing full shields, and if they do, the power of the weapons typically means that it doesn't matter where they are hit...

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Re: How powerful is the Enterprise's main deflector dish?

Postby Batman » 2015-10-23 09:49pm

LaCroix wrote:
Ted C wrote:
LaCroix wrote:Shooting the warp drive should be a priority if you want to destroy the ship. Cracking open a nacelle can throw a Galaxy-class starship out of control and blow it up completely. We saw it happen in "Cause and Effect".

Once.
If it were a predictable result, then we'd see everyone always target the nacelles of all enemy ships. Still, everyone keeps aiming for the hull (and weapon systems, it seems, because they usually fail quite early in fights)
Since we must assume that these crews are competent in what they are doing, they obviously have reasons to prioritize other target areas.

That was also the E-D, whose Warp core is infamous for going up if somebody looks at it crossly. The Flight I Galaxies are notorious for having instable Warp cores. In TWOK The E-Nil blew a Warp nacelle clean off the Reliant and all that happened was...the ship no longer had that Warp nacelle.
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