Trade Negotiation

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cmdrjones
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby cmdrjones » 2015-09-10 02:49pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Here we go again with the Federation is a communist dictatorship shit.

The Federation may not practice the free market, but their are no gulags and no secret police keeping everyone in line. If it is communist, it is arguably employing a form of communism more benevolent and effective than any ever seen on Earth.

Also, while I don't deny for an instant that the Federation has made some serious mistakes, there is a long way between the things you mentioned and the kind of mass genocide and slavery Palpatine's Empire practiced. Are you seriously telling me you think someone like Picard would not take issue with that?

And the idea that Seven of Nine's freedom of choice was taken is highly dubious. I presume you're using the same reasoning about her not being allowed to be a Borg as the SFDebris reviews. Well, let's see: she was taken as a young child and has scarcely known any life outside of the Borg. The term "brainwashed" comes to mind.

In any case, if Seven did genuinely wish to return to the Borg, remaining loyal to them, the Federation would be utterly within its rights to hold her as a prisoner of war, given that the Borg collective are enemies of the Federation. And to sever her connection with the collective to keep her from communicating with enemy leadership.

And as for the idea of the Federation liking COMPNOR or Human High Culture (an organization and term which, to the best of my knowledge, are confined to the old EU and are thus non-canon now), the Federation has no secret police (unless you count Section 31, but they don't seem to engage in day to day oppression of Federation citizens) and is a multicultural society with aliens in positions of power.


None of this I disagree with, but then again I am extrapolating from specific examples. We don't KNOW that much about federation culture at all! From what we do know, (ST: Insurrection, the Pegasus Episode, and that one crazy capaint on a one man war vs the cardassians comes to mind) that there are some nasty characters embedded in Starfleet high command. Picard is the idealized version of what Starfleet SHOULD be, not what it IS. All I am saying is that the Starfleet high command may rationalize away the nasty bits that the empire engaged in in order to partake in a deal that will allow them to secure the Federation against ALL comers (such as the borg). Hell i've seen it argued on THIS site that the empire was justified in destroying Alderaan because they were aiding the rebellion and so on.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.


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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-11 12:12am

cmdrjones wrote:None of this I disagree with, but then again I am extrapolating from specific examples. We don't KNOW that much about federation culture at all! From what we do know, (ST: Insurrection, the Pegasus Episode, and that one crazy capaint on a one man war vs the cardassians comes to mind) that there are some nasty characters embedded in Starfleet high command. Picard is the idealized version of what Starfleet SHOULD be, not what it IS. All I am saying is that the Starfleet high command may rationalize away the nasty bits that the empire engaged in in order to partake in a deal that will allow them to secure the Federation against ALL comers (such as the borg). Hell i've seen it argued on THIS site that the empire was justified in destroying Alderaan because they were aiding the rebellion and so on.

Nobody denies that there are black sheeps in StarFleet. But they have to be the minority. Otherwise if the admiralty of StarFleet agrees with these black sheeps, the ideals of StarFleet wouldn't be what they are, Picard wouldn't have gotten the command of the Enterprise D and the Enterprise E and Admiral Pressman and several others at Starfleet Intelligence wouldn't have to face a general court martial for violating the Treaty of Algeron.

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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby cmdrjones » 2015-09-11 07:08am

WATCH-MAN wrote:
cmdrjones wrote:None of this I disagree with, but then again I am extrapolating from specific examples. We don't KNOW that much about federation culture at all! From what we do know, (ST: Insurrection, the Pegasus Episode, and that one crazy capaint on a one man war vs the cardassians comes to mind) that there are some nasty characters embedded in Starfleet high command. Picard is the idealized version of what Starfleet SHOULD be, not what it IS. All I am saying is that the Starfleet high command may rationalize away the nasty bits that the empire engaged in in order to partake in a deal that will allow them to secure the Federation against ALL comers (such as the borg). Hell i've seen it argued on THIS site that the empire was justified in destroying Alderaan because they were aiding the rebellion and so on.

Nobody denies that there are black sheeps in StarFleet. But they have to be the minority. Otherwise if the admiralty of StarFleet agrees with these black sheeps, the ideals of StarFleet wouldn't be what they are, Picard wouldn't have gotten the command of the Enterprise D and the Enterprise E and Admiral Pressman and several others at Starfleet Intelligence wouldn't have to face a general court martial for violating the Treaty of Algeron.



Then explain why that maniac Janeway gets an admiralship.... :lol:
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.


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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-11 07:22am

She's a hero and has a mostly loyal crew who put the best possible spin on her actions, perhaps?

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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 07:25am

cmdrjones wrote:Then explain why that maniac Janeway gets an admiralship.... :lol:


Gee, it's almost like Janeway recovered alien technology that will advance the Federation by decades, if not centuries, with slipstream drive, Borg transwarp, transphasic torpedoes, etc., destroy a huge amount of the Borg infrastructure, and bring in intelligence and charts of the Delta Quadrant, and a half dozen other things that will look rather shining on her record.

But if you want to go with the insane Janeway theory, you can always say that she severely edited her logs as soon as Voyager got in Earth orbit. :roll:
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-09-11 07:50am

Tbh we can also explain at least some of Janeway's insanity as being overly stressed about the fact that a poor call by her struck Voyager in hostile territory almost a century away from home and that's excluding having to deal with cultural clash between the starfleet and marqui crew.

It might be janeway was dumped it "relatively" easy and stress free desk job after Voyager returned as reward for dealing with the Borg.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby cmdrjones » 2015-09-11 08:25am

that was a joke....
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.


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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 09:08am

Ignoring the little cul-de-sac we went on about the Federation's government, it would be best for the Federation to avoid dealing with the Empire, and do what it can to prevent dealings with them. Considering we went to open war with them, and they invaded us, and the only reason that we're not at war now is due to Organian intervention, it might be best to pursue other options by again, trying to support the Rebellion in any way possible, and opening up trade with the more reasonable governments in the Star Wars galaxy.

Offering asylum to Rebellion ships if they enter our space would, if nothing else, improve their odds if they're able to get onto our side of the wormhole. In return for their gratitude, I'm sure they'll be willing to help us with the technological gap and give us a leg up, as we would be natural allies.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-11 09:36am

I agree. But the problem is that Palpatine controls the far side of the wormhole, and if he has any brains at all will have it blockaded. That means either we or someone else is going to have to penetrate that blockade, or deal with Palpatine or whoever his local lackey is.

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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 10:27am

If that's the case, it becomes not our problem until the Empire falls. We prevent the Romulans, Klingons, Breen or anyone else going to their galaxy via the cloaked mines that Rom invented, and the Empire will prevent anyone from coming into ours. We can focus on rebuilding and advancing, and I'll probably rubber stamp new dreadnought size ships and increased automation for starships/hologram crews.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-11 10:30am

Well, my concern, as I mentioned earlier, is that Palpatine will use intermediaries/allies to trade, smuggle, or attack us through the wormhole. Which is why we need tech. and intel. from the Star Wars side.

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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 10:35am

It'll be a bit tough for anyone to do that, considering the placed minefield.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-11 10:43am

If you want to argue that Federation mines can stop anything tougher than a corvette that the Star Wars galaxy has from coming through, go ahead. I'll be sincerely interested to hear your reasoning.

My concern, to put it bluntly, is that Palpatine can just order the local commander to turn a blind eye to the first pirate fleet that wants to go through the wormhole, and they can trash the Federation at their leisure.

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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 11:04am

No, I'm not going to argue that Federation cloaked mines can stop something the size of a Star Destroyer, but I do feel that it will stop Star Wars freighters, fighters, and anything on the Trek side, barring the Borg or the Voth deciding to use the wormhole, which we will dutifully warn the Empire if such an event is about to occur.

If a pirate fleet really comes by, there's not a lot we can do about it, even if we do trade with the Empire, as Palpatine will screw us over, just because the Organians are denying him something. Either way, he'll find the first way to screw us over when he can. Better to not play his game, and stall for time by building defenses and stalling until the Emperor gets thrown down a shaft by his apprentice.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-11 11:12am

Of course, in this altered reality, Palpatine might not suffer such a fate, or it might happen at a different time.

While the Organians give us some protection, this is still a very dicey situation, the kind that keeps generals and politicians awake at night.

We need some protection against Palpatine letting a hostile fleet through. Short of getting Palpatine to agree not to do it and him actually keeping his fucking word, which I obviously wouldn't count on, the only option I can see is either to booby trap our end of the wormhole with WMDs in case the defences are overrun (say, with Red Matter to make a black hole or a Genesis device) or to work out a deal with someone on the other side to help us out (which means negotiating permission to send envoys through the wormhole, presumably under a different pretext).

Edit: Well, I suppose we could try running an Imperial blockade. That sure sounds fun.

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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 11:24am

This depends on where the wormhole is. If it's on the Outer Rim, it'll be rather easy for a pirate fleet to get to the wormhole unmolested. However, if it's anywhere in the Core or Mid-worlds, the pirates may not want to take that risk, as easier targets exist and may not want to believe the leader of the government that has patrol ships hunting them down.

It also really depends on how well the Empire patrols its space. Palpatine can convince the commander of the fleet or whatever guarding the wormhole to look aside, but how many fleets will he have to tell to pay the pirates raiding Imperial worlds to pay no heed so that they will continue on to the wormhole.

It would be the equivalent of the US Navy obeying the President's wishes to have Somali pirates dock and travel through Hawaii to attack Chile.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby Borgholio » 2015-09-11 11:45am

It would be the equivalent of the US Navy obeying the President's wishes to have Somali pirates dock and travel through Hawaii to attack Chile.


Just offer up letters of marque. It's been done countless times in the past, and it generally works to get pirates working for you against your enemy.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 11:50am

Wouldn't that fall under Organian "Ouch, my console is burning me", category?
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby Borgholio » 2015-09-11 01:49pm

Would they be blocking the Empire AND anybody who does business with it, or just the Empire itself?
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 02:46pm

Borgholio wrote:Would they be blocking the Empire AND anybody who does business with it, or just the Empire itself?


If it's just the empire itself, Palpatine, Vader, or some Admiral could just hire a bunch of Mandalorian mercenaries or something and just invade or destroy the Milky Way galaxy that way, easypeasy.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby Borgholio » 2015-09-11 03:01pm

Yeah that's pretty much it. It's along the same lines of asking if the Ferengi or Romulans can go through while the Federation cant. If the Organians are stupidly literal in their treaty, then it would immediately turn into a proxy war which the Empire would still win.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-11 07:40pm

FaxModem1 wrote:This depends on where the wormhole is. If it's on the Outer Rim, it'll be rather easy for a pirate fleet to get to the wormhole unmolested. However, if it's anywhere in the Core or Mid-worlds, the pirates may not want to take that risk, as easier targets exist and may not want to believe the leader of the government that has patrol ships hunting them down.

It also really depends on how well the Empire patrols its space. Palpatine can convince the commander of the fleet or whatever guarding the wormhole to look aside, but how many fleets will he have to tell to pay the pirates raiding Imperial worlds to pay no heed so that they will continue on to the wormhole.

It would be the equivalent of the US Navy obeying the President's wishes to have Somali pirates dock and travel through Hawaii to attack Chile.


The difference is that the US is not a dictatorship, US soldiers are not frequently executed by their superiors without a trial simply for making mistakes (much less refusing an order), and US soldiers swear to defend the Constitution, not obey the President.

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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-11 08:48pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:The difference is that the US is not a dictatorship, US soldiers are not frequently executed by their superiors without a trial simply for making mistakes (much less refusing an order), and US soldiers swear to defend the Constitution, not obey the President.


Again, really depends on where the wormhole is, and how willing the pirates are to take the leader of the government that is aiming to kill them all at his word. Most pirates would probably rather take on a softer target that isn't so surrounded by the Imperial fleet when they return from the Milky Way.

This also depends on whether or not the Organians make them dead in the water once they arrive in the Milky Way galaxy since they'd be working for the Imperials.
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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-11 11:11pm

Valid points.

But on the other hand, going by the usual numbers I've seen for Star Trek vs. Star Wars, a pirate would stand a real chance of being able to carve their own mini-empire out of the Federation.

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Re: Trade Negotiation

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-12 06:17am

It'll really depend on how the pirate goes through the wormhole. Do the UFP and the GE have all clear communication signals to each other? I would want that, to ensure that we lower defenses if they send an envoy through, otherwise, the minefield stays up and short of capital ships, anyone coming through is going to have a bad day as their screens get covered in thousands of mines bombarding them as they replicate and continue to smash against the ships coming through.

If Palpatine gives the all clear, and the minefield is off, Starfleet gets gut punched rather easily. Something the equivalent of Slave One or the Millennium Falcon could make a lot of hit and run attacks, but establishing an empire would be tricky without a support base or people willing to follow the pirate.
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