Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-11-07 08:04pm

the atom wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Read for context. I was replying shortly after this post:

The Romulan Republic wrote:I think Vader's precognition might save him from flying into a shield.

However, what about a transporter or torpedoes to take him out? A transporter might be a long shot against a small, evading target given their finickiness (in the reboot, at least, a transporter had trouble locking on to a couple falling humans), but its also something Vader might not be expecting. And even if the torpedoes missed, they're powerful enough that a near miss might be fatal to a mere fighter (how good is Vader's fighter in terms of durability/shielding?).

As for retreating, I suppose that depends on how far the Empire can track ships when they warp away. There's nowhere they can reach that's far enough away that hyperdrives can't catch up to them.

Edit: The sad thing is that even running away at the outset with zero casualties would be an improvement over the Rebels' performance.


And then:
NecronLord wrote:I can see them trying to beam Vader out of his ship when he's flying away from them.



It's pretty obvious I'm talking about offensive combat use of the transporter; a thing the borg do now and then but that the Federation does very very rarely indeed.
Ah, missed the transporter line, I'm an idiot.

This is the only instance I know of.
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Your claim of using a scientific equation is laughable when all you have done is butcher science to the point it makes 'The Core' look like a fucking documentary. Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2015-11-09 06:13am

SpottedKitty wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Though I seem to recall from somewhere or other that transporters can actually confiscate your weapons during transport.

Only if the transporter filter algorithms recognise something as a weapon. No Federation computer system has ever had a look at a lightsabre before, so it might slip through tagged as something like "unknown device, possibly energy storage battery".


So the transporter chief says there's some sort of energy device - and the captain says to deactivate it.

Or if this is a bloodlust to the death thing, they just beam him up but disperse his pattern.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby biostem » 2015-11-09 08:50pm

I could be misremembering, but there was that one episode of TNG where 2 Klingons came on board the Enterprise, they were subsequently placed into the brig, and they escaped using components hidden in their armor to construct a disruptor pistol... so if they beamed on board, the transporters did not recognize the various components as a weapon, nor did they get detected in any way. Even if they didn't use the Enterprise's transporters, it shows how woefully inadequate Starfleet security measures are, as they were neither padded down nor stripped of their armor and placed in generic clothing...

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Batman » 2015-11-09 09:24pm

They were beamed aboard using the E-D's transporters, and not only did they carry the parts for a disruptor, but a shield nixing gadget as well (that's how they got out of their cell, because doors are for wusses).
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby biostem » 2015-11-09 09:27pm

Batman wrote:They were beamed aboard using the E-D's transporters, and not only did they carry the parts for a disruptor, but a shield nixing gadget as well (that's how they got out of their cell, because doors are for wusses).


So I think it's safe to say that, even if they could beam aboard Vader, they'd have no idea that the Lightsaber was a weapon, and wouldn't have the foresight to disable it, or even his cybernetics, for that matter.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-11-09 09:33pm

Methinks that even if the transporter noticed it, Picard would probably go with treating Vader as he would in a first contact scenario and not start off in bad faith by messing around with his equipment while he's disassembled.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Batman » 2015-11-09 10:00pm

I think they started off in bad faith the moment Vader started shooting at them. Even Picard is likely going to be a bit on the cautious side after that.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-11-09 10:12pm

Oh yes. Sorry, I'd forgotten we were discussing beaming Vader out of his fighter after he opens fire, rather than beaming him over as a "let's talk about this calmly" routine.

Though given that his cybernetics have to have a power source, they could easily assume the lightsaber is either part of that or a reserve power source or something. It's not a foolproof system, as has been pointed out earlier.
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-11-11 10:26am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Oh yes. Sorry, I'd forgotten we were discussing beaming Vader out of his fighter after he opens fire, rather than beaming him over as a "let's talk about this calmly" routine.

Though given that his cybernetics have to have a power source, they could easily assume the lightsaber is either part of that or a reserve power source or something. It's not a foolproof system, as has been pointed out earlier.

What would likely happen if they transported Vader, they would detect his cybernetics while he's stored in the pattern buffer, mistake him for Borg and beam him either into the Brig or off the ship completely. Force user or not, he's not going to be much of a threat floating out in space! :lol:
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Your claim of using a scientific equation is laughable when all you have done is butcher science to the point it makes 'The Core' look like a fucking documentary. Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-11-11 10:43am

As amusing as that notion is, there are cybernetics in ST that don't make them a Borg - Picard's heart, Geordi's eyes and so forth. Beaming him into a brig is possible, and that will end badly for them since they have a very pissed off Dark Side Force user in their ship. If they leave him his lightsaber, he can cut his way out. If they deactivate it somehow, hmm, I wonder what happens if he used the Force to pull a guard into the forcefield?
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“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-11-11 12:46pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:As amusing as that notion is, there are cybernetics in ST that don't make them a Borg - Picard's heart, Geordi's eyes and so forth. Beaming him into a brig is possible, and that will end badly for them since they have a very pissed off Dark Side Force user in their ship. If they leave him his lightsaber, he can cut his way out. If they deactivate it somehow, hmm, I wonder what happens if he used the Force to pull a guard into the forcefield?

there's at least 1 cybernic species that's either Federation member or trusted enough ally that they're allowed to upgrade the GCS computers aka the bynars, so there's no way Picard would think "cybernics=borg" espcially if he still has latent connection to the collective as it was implied in First Contact.

As for the brig force field, or more accurately force pulling a guard into it, what would happen depends on what is the limit of the forcefield, though either way I think you'd end up with a dead redshirt.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-11-11 12:52pm

Vader is on board against his will. One dead red/gold shirt is the bare minimum.
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“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-11-11 01:04pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Vader is on board against his will. One dead red/gold shirt is the bare minimum.

true enough but it was my way of saying that even if the force field fails when Vader slams the poor redshirt(well gold shirt if we're talking E-D) with leathal force he's not gonna leave that guard alive.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Solauren » 2015-11-11 01:05pm

Vader on board the Enterprise and pissed off means the Federation probably lost it's flagship.

Now, could Vader, having experienced the transporter, block it with the Force? We've seen a society of near-tech to the Federation create soldier that can deflect/redirect transporters via some chemical augmentations (anyone remember Rogar Danar?), so it's not to far fetched to think Vader could do that.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Ziggy Stardust » 2015-11-11 05:06pm

Considering the vast variety of things that disrupt or block transporter operation in the show, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if just whatever exotic alloy is used to build a TIE fighter blocks them, shields or no shields.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Borgholio » 2015-11-11 06:04pm

Force user or not, he's not going to be much of a threat floating out in space! :lol:


Actually his suit is space-proof. :-P
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Batman » 2015-11-11 06:46pm

Borgholio wrote:
Force user or not, he's not going to be much of a threat floating out in space! :lol:

Actually his suit is space-proof. :-P

Which means he's not immediately going to be a fatality. I fail to see how merely being alive automatically makes him a credible threat.
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-11-12 10:36am

Lord Revan wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Vader is on board against his will. One dead red/gold shirt is the bare minimum.

true enough but it was my way of saying that even if the force field fails when Vader slams the poor redshirt(well gold shirt if we're talking E-D) with leathal force he's not gonna leave that guard alive.

That's the thing, there's no (known) way to shield against telekinesis. If the E-D somehow obtained intel regarding how dangerous Vader is, there's no way they'd allow him onboard- if they were competent that is (they seem to prefer to capture rather than kill under most circumstances). I recall one curious incident where they had a particularly dangerous prisoner, and in order to move him the brig forcefield had to be down.

I think to work out whether Vader could defeat an ST forcefield, the question is can he throw a redshirt/s against the field with enough force to overload it? If he still has his saber he probably doesn't need match its power to the field when he can just cut through bulkhead/floor. They'd be better off confiscating his saber and keeping an Ysalamir or two next to his cell. Good luck on them obtaining one of those though... :lol:
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Your claim of using a scientific equation is laughable when all you have done is butcher science to the point it makes 'The Core' look like a fucking documentary. Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Borgholio » 2015-11-12 12:20pm

The thing about forcefields is that they need to have generators. Whether or not Vader can use the Force against the field is actually irrelevant. He's a skilled engineer himself, so he should be able to locate the emitters or power conduits keeping the field intact in no time and rip them out. Not to mention he could just use a mind trick to have the guard lower the force field...
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Crazedwraith » 2015-11-12 02:29pm

Just like Obi-Wan used TK to get past the laser door and prevent Qui-Gon's death in TPM. Or he and Anakin used TK to break out of the ray shield in RotS and escape before droids arrived to take them Greivous.

Is there any actual evidence for TK being used through force fields?
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Borgholio » 2015-11-12 03:03pm

I can't explain why Obi Wan didn't do it. Maybe he wasn't powerful enough at the time or trained enough to do it. We know the Force can manipulate objects out of line of sight and even if forcefields can block it, the power conduits and physical supports holding the field generators in place are not protected. So with that said, I attribute this to lack of thinking on the part of the people who were actually trapped by the forcefields.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Crazedwraith » 2015-11-12 04:40pm

Borgholio wrote:I can't explain why Obi Wan didn't do it. Maybe he wasn't powerful enough at the time or trained enough to do it. We know the Force can manipulate objects out of line of sight and even if forcefields can block it, the power conduits and physical supports holding the field generators in place are not protected. So with that said, I attribute this to lack of thinking on the part of the people who were actually trapped by the forcefields.


Fair enough and in this scenario we're crediting the Federation using with their tech more sensibly than the often do.

Still most of the film examples I can recall are line of sight and acting on what are already discrete items. Throw rocks and things about. Senate pods and the X-Wing are big but still one complete object. hat I am saying is they don't tend to go much for tearing things apart with TK.

I guess the best example I can think of is Dooku pulling boulders from the ceiling or the deck of the Invisible Hand in RotS.

There may be better examples in Clone Wars/Rebels of course, which I haven't seen.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Borgholio » 2015-11-12 04:54pm

The Clone Wars cartoons has Mace pulling the nuts and bolts out of a battle droid and using them as a shotgun blast...but that's no longer canon I think.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-11-12 05:25pm

Depends on which version of Clone Wars. The CG series is still canon, I think the Tartovosky cartoon isn't though. But I could be wrong.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-11-15 06:30am

That's correct. The animated clone wars (sadly) isn't canonical.

And people talking about the convoluted scenario where Vader gets beamed aboard need to remember that tactical transporters have happened in Star Trek almost never, and just wasting the enemy with phasers and photons is their usual MO.
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