Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-30 11:26pm


    EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
    I just watched on YouTube a clip showing the fight between the USS Odyssey and three Jem'Hadar fighters - and noticed that there was not one single miss. Each shown shot hit its target - only that it was not enough to destroy the heavily shielded Jem'Hadar fighter.

    Watch it again and you'll notice the runabout that was supposed to intercept the fighter that rammed the Odyssey missed completely.

      Conceded.

      I was not precise enough in wording my observations: I meant that each shot of the USS Odyssey hit its target.

      But even considering the runabouts, then this was the only shot in the whole battle that missed. All other observed shot hit.


      Hardly convincing evidence that Federation ships are generally bad at engaging small fighters or even fast gunboats (as seen in numerous engagements with the Jem'Hadar) - as Venator claimed.


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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-30 11:33pm


    Eternal_Freedom wrote:While the E-D did manage to handily destroy the sentry pods in "Conundrum" they did not appear to be maneuvering very much to evade fire. TIEs, Vader's especially, were much more evasive.

      Please provide evidence for that claim.

      I can not remember that I have ever seen a TIE fighter zipping around similar to a hummingbird.

      Maybe you can refer to a scene where a TIE fighter really evaded a shot. But with evaded I mean really evaded and not that a shot simply missed as most shots in Star Wars are missing even such fighters that are flying in a straight line.

    Eternal_Freedom wrote:As for ST ships in general being able to fight off Dominion attack fighters, those things are huge compared to single-man TIEs.

      Conceded - although I have never contested that.


    Eternal_Freedom wrote:But I question whether there would even be a fight. Vader turns up expecting Rebel ships, instead he finds a Federation task force made up of ships he doesn't recognise at all and that are making no overtly hostile moves. Despite the perception of him as a violent brutal enforcer, I suspect even he would decide to investigate first.

      That may be.


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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-01 11:06am

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:While the E-D did manage to handily destroy the sentry pods in "Conundrum" they did not appear to be maneuvering very much to evade fire. TIEs, Vader's especially, were much more evasive.

Please provide evidence for that claim.

I can not remember that I have ever seen a TIE fighter zipping around similar to a hummingbird.

Maybe you can refer to a scene where a TIE fighter really evaded a shot. But with evaded I mean really evaded and not that a shot simply missed as most shots in Star Wars are missing even such fighters that are flying in a straight line.


In the episode preview FaxModem posted on the first page, we see the sentry pods getting destroyed. They approach in a fairly compact group, at an apparently low relative speed, and barely change course before getting fired on.

As for TIE's evading shots, we have the TIE that was chasing Biggs over the Death Star in ANH. It's agile enough to stay on Bigg's tail and keep Luke from getting a clear shot for a good fifteen seconds. And that's an ordinary TIE pilot being chased by Luke Skywalker. I can't recall exact examples but I'm pretty sure we see more TIEs evading fire over Endor in ROTJ.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:As for ST ships in general being able to fight off Dominion attack fighters, those things are huge compared to single-man TIEs.

Conceded - although I have never contested that.


I never said you did, however it leads into another point. The phaser strips are designed for engaging other starships. The Dominion attack ships are big enough to have a bridge, several decks, a crew of at least ten, they're comparable in size to Defiant, . That ST ships can fit and destroy such targets is fine. However, targets that are much smaller, faster and more agile are going to be harder to hit, that's just common sense.

Imagine you're an AA gunner in WW2. Something like a B-17 flying in a straight line is going to be easier to hit (if it's in range) than, say, a P-51 Mustang that's flying in at low level.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-10-04 08:36pm

That's why I also posted the image and script from Pre-Emptive Strike, in which Worf is able to handily shoot between fighters who are being evasive around a Galor class ship. The Maquis and Bajoran raiders are supposed to be decades old, but are still considered up to par for fighting a Cardassian warship in large enough numbers.

Also, these ships are not making a bee line for the Enterprise, but are swiftly engaging the Cardies until told to bugger off by the photon torpedoes supplied by the Enterprise. I don't know if Peregrinne fighters/Maquis Raiders are as evasive as TIE fighters, but they do seem quite agile.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-04 08:50pm

I don't doubt that the Peregrines/Maquis ships are agile for the setting, but given their size (and hence mass and inertia) relative to a TIE, I think it is reasonable to assume the TIE will be more agile.

To continue with my WW2 analogy, a small Torpedo Boat (the ST "fighters") is likely to seem quite agile...if everyone else involved is running around in multi-thousand tonne destroyers or larger (the starships). In contrast, someone in a one-man speedboat is going to run rings around everything else, even if he can't do as much damage as a torpedo boat could.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-10-04 10:10pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I don't doubt that the Peregrines/Maquis ships are agile for the setting, but given their size (and hence mass and inertia) relative to a TIE, I think it is reasonable to assume the TIE will be more agile.

To continue with my WW2 analogy, a small Torpedo Boat (the ST "fighters") is likely to seem quite agile...if everyone else involved is running around in multi-thousand tonne destroyers or larger (the starships). In contrast, someone in a one-man speedboat is going to run rings around everything else, even if he can't do as much damage as a torpedo boat could.


True enough, luckily, I was able to find the preview of the episode on youtube. Keeping in mind that Picard is telling Worf to not hit them, but to scare them off by hitting between them:



We see the photon torpedo effect at :24.

If desired, could the Enterprise perform such a trick on Vader's fighter, and send him on similar cartwheels by blasting the area around him?

I see three scenarios:
Either A) the Enterprise is able to target the fighter, due to the superiority of Vader's pilot ability plus his wielding a personal TIE that can do loops around the Federation equivalent, and is able to dodge out of the blastwaves of photon torpedoes being basted all around him

B) the Enterprise can't target the agile fighter, but is able to blast the area around Vader, subduing his fighter and making him unable to continue fighting.

C) the Enterprise's phaser banks are good enough to target small flying objects and disable or destroy Darth Vader's TIE fighter with several quick shots.

Personally, I think the Enterprise is capable of B or C, due to the fact that Vader will be rather outnumbered and outgunned in this scenario, even if TIE fighters are able to do loops around the Federation equivalent.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-10-05 04:56am

For analysis, we can examine how Vader and the Rebel fleet acted in this battle:

Part 1


Part 2:


As noted, the Rebel fleet, aside from fighters, never fired a shot. I'm sure the Enterprise would fire, as would the Runabouts, Excelsiors, and other vessels if Darth Vader comes in firing. The Star Destroyers are also minutes away, which unlike the Rebel commander, would give Picard cause for concern and he would quickly want to retreat from the area due to a superior force arriving.

So, to revise the earlier post, assuming Vader and Picard don't get into talks about relations between the UFP and the Galactic Empire, and Vader thinks these ships are Rebel ships, which causes him to attack, Picard might be able to destroy Vader's fighter, but due to Vader's excellent piloting, they could miss him completely. And either way, due to seeing giant ships coming towards them, Picard and company swiftly retreat, but are sadly overtaken by the speed of hyperdrive and swiftly destroyed due to the higher firepower from three Star Destroyers.

Of course, that assumes that they are capable of firing, as Star Wars Rebels star destroyers can only use tractor beams, and don't actually seem to have any weaponry. :wink:
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-05 07:49am

It also assumes that Picard is aware of the approaching Star Destroyers. Or rather, has enough warning to decide what to do.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-10-05 07:57pm

Good point. It's one of those things that bugs me about the episode itself, as TIEs are individual short range fighters, even if Vader's personal TIE is not, which is enough for the Rebel fleet to take the hint that it's time to bug out and meet at a different rendezvous point. Picard and company won't have that option due to the relative slowness of warp travel, but the Rebel fleet could have warmed up their hyperdrive rather quickly and left the area.

Do ships coming out of hyperdrive or approaching in hyperdrive make any sort of gravity well or some other indication that would show up on sensors? Whether it is a Rebel or Federation ship?
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-10-06 10:15am

Ships coming out of hyperdrive can be sensed; see ESB. I'm not so sure about 'approaching in hyperdrive'. IIRC, Trek ships can't be sensed when in warp, but I could be wrong about that.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-10-06 01:15pm


    FaxModem1 wrote:[...] And either way, due to seeing giant ships coming towards them, Picard and company swiftly retreat, but are sadly overtaken by the speed of hyperdrive and swiftly destroyed due to the higher firepower from three Star Destroyers.

      Even if hyper speed is faster than warp, can they engage a ship in warp from hyper space?

      Is it possible for the Star Destroyers - after they have overtaken the Starfleet ships and left hyper space - to engage ships at warp from normal space?


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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-10-06 01:47pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:

    FaxModem1 wrote:[...] And either way, due to seeing giant ships coming towards them, Picard and company swiftly retreat, but are sadly overtaken by the speed of hyperdrive and swiftly destroyed due to the higher firepower from three Star Destroyers.

      Even if hyper speed is faster than warp, can they engage a ship in warp from hyper space?

      Is it possible for the Star Destroyers - after they have overtaken the Starfleet ships and left hyper space - to engage ships at warp from normal space?



I don't believe so, but we've never seen warp and hyperdrive work anywhere near each other. The big problem is range. Picard's flotilla, if/when they escape after vaporizing Vader can only move so far in a sphere. That sphere is x. The Star Destroyers can move so far in a larger sphere via hyperdrive, that sphere is y.

Y is greater than x, so that wherever the Enterprise and company stop, the Star Destroyers can find them.

As an example, if you're a really fast jogger, and I have a motorcycle, you can jog anywhere, and even if I can't get you while you're jogging, once you stop jogging, I can rather quickly catch up to you in my motorcycle.

Of course, that depends on the Star Destroyers being able to track the ships to where they are going. But, since their range will be limited, the Star Destroyers can make an effective search pattern for them if they want to and find them within the maximum range of warp capable vessels.

IF the Fed ships had transwarp, slipstream, or something, that would be different, but since they don't, they're going to be rather short range. Since they don't have that, they're going to be running away from a hopeless battle, and sadly still be captured by tractor beams, the only confirmed weaponry for Star Wars Rebels era Star Destroyers, as no Star Destroyer has fired a single shot in the TV show.

Turbolasers were obviously installed some time before A New Hope. :wink:
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-10-06 02:00pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
Turbolasers were obviously installed some time before A New Hope. :wink:


The fight must have been before Tuesday :D
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Batman » 2015-10-06 02:31pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:Turbolasers were obviously installed some time before A New Hope. :wink:

The fight must have been before Tuesday :D

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-10-15 12:04pm

Elheru Aran wrote:Ships coming out of hyperdrive can be sensed; see ESB. I'm not so sure about 'approaching in hyperdrive'. IIRC, Trek ships can't be sensed when in warp, but I could be wrong about that.

At 5:40 in this video shows that they can. The clip omits Dax saying that it's 6 ships led by the Venture and they'd arrive in 15 minutes.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-10-16 01:28pm

FaxModem1 wrote:but are sadly overtaken by the speed of hyperdrive and swiftly destroyed due to the higher firepower from three Star Destroyers.


Nowhere in any canon or even Legends source that I am aware of are star wars ships able to fight in hyperspace. They can follow things through hyperspace, in certain circumstances, but they can't fight them there.

And if they are following the Trek ships, well, the trek ships can fight at warp speed; do star wars ships even run shields while at FTL?
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Adam Reynolds » 2015-10-16 04:15pm

NecronLord wrote:And if they are following the Trek ships, well, the trek ships can fight at warp speed; do star wars ships even run shields while at FTL?

According to the ANH novelization, the Millennium Falcon has its shields raised as it drops from hyperspace. This also fits the film in which the Falcon survives the Alderaan debris field.

Clone Wars also has examples of ships dropping out of hyperspace and firing their weapons almost immediately(starting with Ambush and continuing throughout the series). Presumably their shields are also raised.

How would warp capable ships even be capable of hitting a Star Destroyer moving in hyperspace?

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Batman » 2015-10-16 04:29pm

Even if you can fire from real space to hyperspace and vice versa (do we have any definite information on the current nature of hyperspace?) the sheer speed differential should make engagements while FTL virtually impossible.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-10-16 04:46pm

hyperspace strafing would have the problems of warp strafing times 10000, even with warp strafing your firing window is near non-existant when attacking sublight targets with hyperdrive ships the window would be signifigantly shorter due faster speeds of the hyperdrive.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Mr Hugh Mann » 2015-10-16 05:15pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:

    FaxModem1 wrote:[...] And either way, due to seeing giant ships coming towards them, Picard and company swiftly retreat, but are sadly overtaken by the speed of hyperdrive and swiftly destroyed due to the higher firepower from three Star Destroyers.

      Even if hyper speed is faster than warp, can they engage a ship in warp from hyper space?

      Is it possible for the Star Destroyers - after they have overtaken the Starfleet ships and left hyper space - to engage ships at warp from normal space?



While it is unknown as to whether or not a vessel in hyperspace can engage a ship in warp, there are reasons to believe that regardless of the possibility it is not likely to be pursued.

As far as I can recall with regard to the current Star Wars canon, there are no incidents of combat occurring between vessels in hyperspace.

In the case of Star Trek, there are multiple incidents of FTL combat, however virtually all of the observed cases are between vessels using the same FTL system whether that happens to be conventional warp drive, transwarp conduits, quantum slipstream, or even transwarp hubs.

So in the former case there are no incidents of FTL combat and in the latter case FTL combat is restricted to opponents using the same system.

I expect that the alternative strategy will focus on forcing their opponents out of FTL. In the case of Star Wars there exists specialty vessels like the Interdictor class cruiser (which is canon again, thanks to Rebels) designed explicitly for the purposes of FTL prevention, and in the case of Star Trek there are a few gravity manipulation techniques along with high level subspace disruption which have on several occasions forced vessels out of warp (as mentioned on the main page).

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-10-16 09:19pm

Batman wrote:Even if you can fire from real space to hyperspace and vice versa (do we have any definite information on the current nature of hyperspace?) the sheer speed differential should make engagements while FTL virtually impossible.


You have to be at approximately the same velocity to be chasing them, otherwise you overhaul and they can turn around and go wherever they want. If you're not clipping along at a similar speed, you're going to pass out of sensor range eventually.

Hyperspace is a superluminal perception of real space, this is how a ship is at risk of smashing into comets in TCW. It's not 'the mass shadow' or anything like that, it's very much 'we're going to hit those comets'

So yes, hyperspace is superluminal realspace, and warp drive is superluminal realspace. One's much faster, but if they're chasing the federation ships, then they're running with shields down, if we're taking novel evidence, and have no ability to fire back.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-10-16 09:22pm

Mr Hugh Mann wrote:While it is unknown as to whether or not a vessel in hyperspace can engage a ship in warp, there are reasons to believe that regardless of the possibility it is not likely to be pursued.
Nor is there evidence that the Empire can generally follow anyone in hyperspace. They never do this unless they have a homing beacon, after all.

There's a few examples of Han checking sensors to ensure the Falcon's not being followed, but given that homing-beacon missiles exist (as per Rebels) this is a sensible precaution for him to take, and doesn't prove they can track a superluminal ship without a homing beacon on it.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby the atom » 2015-11-06 05:26am

NecronLord wrote:They never try these tactics on say, Jemmie bug-ships, even when they'd be advantageous to, so either there's reason not to, or they don't normally think of it.
What 'tactics'? Do you mean shooting them with photon torpedoes and phasers? Are you actually arguing that Starfleet never shot at Jem Hadar bug ships? :wtf:
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-11-06 12:47pm

Read for context. I was replying shortly after this post:

The Romulan Republic wrote:I think Vader's precognition might save him from flying into a shield.

However, what about a transporter or torpedoes to take him out? A transporter might be a long shot against a small, evading target given their finickiness (in the reboot, at least, a transporter had trouble locking on to a couple falling humans), but its also something Vader might not be expecting. And even if the torpedoes missed, they're powerful enough that a near miss might be fatal to a mere fighter (how good is Vader's fighter in terms of durability/shielding?).

As for retreating, I suppose that depends on how far the Empire can track ships when they warp away. There's nowhere they can reach that's far enough away that hyperdrives can't catch up to them.

Edit: The sad thing is that even running away at the outset with zero casualties would be an improvement over the Rebels' performance.


And then:
NecronLord wrote:I can see them trying to beam Vader out of his ship when he's flying away from them.



It's pretty obvious I'm talking about offensive combat use of the transporter; a thing the borg do now and then but that the Federation does very very rarely indeed.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby the atom » 2015-11-06 11:01pm

NecronLord wrote:Read for context. I was replying shortly after this post:

The Romulan Republic wrote:I think Vader's precognition might save him from flying into a shield.

However, what about a transporter or torpedoes to take him out? A transporter might be a long shot against a small, evading target given their finickiness (in the reboot, at least, a transporter had trouble locking on to a couple falling humans), but its also something Vader might not be expecting. And even if the torpedoes missed, they're powerful enough that a near miss might be fatal to a mere fighter (how good is Vader's fighter in terms of durability/shielding?).

As for retreating, I suppose that depends on how far the Empire can track ships when they warp away. There's nowhere they can reach that's far enough away that hyperdrives can't catch up to them.

Edit: The sad thing is that even running away at the outset with zero casualties would be an improvement over the Rebels' performance.


And then:
NecronLord wrote:I can see them trying to beam Vader out of his ship when he's flying away from them.



It's pretty obvious I'm talking about offensive combat use of the transporter; a thing the borg do now and then but that the Federation does very very rarely indeed.
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