Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

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Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-08 03:40am

In the last episode of Star Wars: Rebels, Lord Vader tracked the main characters back to a Rebel fleet consisting of a command ship (basically a corvette or frigate which I believe acted as a mini-carrier), a number of corvettes, the Ghost (small freighter/gunship), and a squadron of fighters. Vader engaged the fleet single-handedly in his fighter, destroying a number of fighters and crippling the command ship, forcing the Rebels to abandon it when Star Destroyers showed up.

Considering the embarrassing performance of the Rebel fleet (losing a number of fighters and pilots and a light warship while inflicting zero losses on the enemy), I'm wondering: how would a Federation task force have done in their place?

Scenario one: The corvettes are replaced with typical Excelsiors, the command ship with a generic Galaxy class ship, and the Ghost with a standard Runabout.

Scenario two: As above, except that the command ship is replaced with the Enterprise D.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-09-08 04:54am

Well the TIE fighter is fast compared to the ships they're used to engaging. Very fast.

To my mind, it basically comes down to whether they're able to get a tractor beam or phaser shot onto the fighter, in which case they can kill Vader, otherwise he can dance around until reinforcements arrive. Probably recalling the runabout is the best option.

I don't recall Vader using torpedos in that battle, and the lasers are usually single KT range, which means they can't really hurt the Federation ships by most calculations; it's possible to fly 'under' Star Wars shields to damage the ship with laser fire, but that's not possible against Trek ships, but he can obviously attack the Runabout. If they can withdraw the runabout behind their shields, then Vader can't harm any of their ships.

And Vader might try and get under the trek ships' shields, which leads to the amusing image of Vader's TIE getting splattered like a bug.


Obviously when reinforcements arrive they need to bug out.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-08 05:06am

I think Vader's precognition might save him from flying into a shield.

However, what about a transporter or torpedoes to take him out? A transporter might be a long shot against a small, evading target given their finickiness (in the reboot, at least, a transporter had trouble locking on to a couple falling humans), but its also something Vader might not be expecting. And even if the torpedoes missed, they're powerful enough that a near miss might be fatal to a mere fighter (how good is Vader's fighter in terms of durability/shielding?).

As for retreating, I suppose that depends on how far the Empire can track ships when they warp away. There's nowhere they can reach that's far enough away that hyperdrives can't catch up to them.

Edit: The sad thing is that even running away at the outset with zero casualties would be an improvement over the Rebels' performance.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Darth Tanner » 2015-09-08 05:20am

Vader's fighter does have shields but presumably only rated for kiloton level fighter weapon impacts. Fed torps going off nearby at 64 megatons a pop are going to do some damage if they can get detonations close enough.

Also although the Tie has max acceleration of some 4000Gs it was not doing that for the battle against the Rebels, we see it doing attack runs on the corvettes going no more than a few hundred/thousand miles per hour. That would imply the Federation with so many ships would have a good chance of getting a phaser hit or a torpedo to track him.

Of course when he sees these weird ships he might just call the pair of Star Destroyers in to wipe the floor with them... although Star Destroyers in Rebels are perhaps unarmed as far as we know... :lol:
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-09-08 05:22am

They never try these tactics on say, Jemmie bug-ships, even when they'd be advantageous to, so either there's reason not to, or they don't normally think of it.

And Vader can't really hurt them, so why kill him? More likely they'll just scoff:

"Lasers, those can't penetrate our navigational shields."
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby bilateralrope » 2015-09-08 05:47am

The Romulan Republic wrote:A transporter might be a long shot against a small, evading target given their finickiness (in the reboot, at least, a transporter had trouble locking on to a couple falling humans), but its also something Vader might not be expecting.


Problem is that to attempt offensive use of the transporter the ship doing so must first lower their own shields. Why would they ever do that when running away is an option ?

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-09-08 05:51am

I can see them trying to beam Vader out of his ship when he's flying away from them.

Which would rate as the biggest mistake ever made.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-08 08:04am

I don't think the excelsiors would do that well at targeting Vader, but we do now that the Enterprise D can handle fighters rather well:



If needed, targeting of small flying objects at high velocities is a possibility. As for whether or not the Enterprise can do this against a pilot of Vader's skill is unknown.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-08 06:08pm

bilateralrope wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:A transporter might be a long shot against a small, evading target given their finickiness (in the reboot, at least, a transporter had trouble locking on to a couple falling humans), but its also something Vader might not be expecting.


Problem is that to attempt offensive use of the transporter the ship doing so must first lower their own shields. Why would they ever do that when running away is an option ?


Why would they run away from one small ship that, short of having torpedoes it did not demonstrate possessing during the battle (as NecronLord noted), cannot necessarily do them much harm?

Actually, if the Federation is following its usual customs, I imagine they'll try to negotiate first, capture the ship intact second, destroy it third, and die or run when Star Destroyers show up. Although who's in charge is a factor here. Some captains might be more trigger-happy than Picard.

NecronLord wrote:I can see them trying to beam Vader out of his ship when he's flying away from them.

Which would rate as the biggest mistake ever made.


I wonder how many security officers he could kill, and weather they'd eventually decide to just beam him back into space.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-09-08 06:19pm

Vader has done EVA without a spacesuit; apparently his armour is void-proof. Perhaps simply egressing his fighter and taking a lightsaber to the nearest airlock he can find is an option?

(This, IIRC, is actually canon, as he does it in one of the post-Legendaries comics)
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-08 06:23pm

Yeah, I figured the suite would protect him in space.

Though I seem to recall from somewhere or other that transporters can actually confiscate your weapons during transport. Don't recall the source, but if it's true, they could at least deprive Vader of his lightsaber (presuming they managed to get a transporter lock on him, of course). Won't help with the telekinesis or simply being strong enough to kill people bare-handed, though.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Batman » 2015-09-08 06:26pm

Ordinary run-of-the-mill humans can do EVA without a spacesuit, just not for particularly long or efficiently (moving leave alone in a controlled manner is going to be a problem). Stands to reason a guy who's a cyborg wearing a high-tech survival suit could do better.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-08 06:28pm

You know, I think I might try to write this up as a fanfic, if anyone's interested.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby NecronLord » 2015-09-08 06:37pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Yeah, I figured the suite would protect him in space.

Though I seem to recall from somewhere or other that transporters can actually confiscate your weapons during transport. Don't recall the source, but if it's true, they could at least deprive Vader of his lightsaber (presuming they managed to get a transporter lock on him, of course). Won't help with the telekinesis or simply being strong enough to kill people bare-handed, though.


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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby bilateralrope » 2015-09-08 07:28pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:A transporter might be a long shot against a small, evading target given their finickiness (in the reboot, at least, a transporter had trouble locking on to a couple falling humans), but its also something Vader might not be expecting.


Problem is that to attempt offensive use of the transporter the ship doing so must first lower their own shields. Why would they ever do that when running away is an option ?


Why would they run away from one small ship that, short of having torpedoes it did not demonstrate possessing during the battle (as NecronLord noted), cannot necessarily do them much harm?


Why would they want to stay ?

We are talking about a volume of empty space. There is nothing there except the ships involved.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby SpottedKitty » 2015-09-08 07:37pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Though I seem to recall from somewhere or other that transporters can actually confiscate your weapons during transport.

Only if the transporter filter algorithms recognise something as a weapon. No Federation computer system has ever had a look at a lightsabre before, so it might slip through tagged as something like "unknown device, possibly energy storage battery".
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-08 08:09pm

bilateralrope wrote:Why would they want to stay ?

We are talking about a volume of empty space. There is nothing there except the ships involved.


Granted. However, they might respond if Vader opened fire on them.

But if we treat this as a realistic scenario rather than just saying the two sides end up fighting no matter what, they might not engage each other in battle at all. If this is first contact, Vader might investigate further before attacking the Federation (or not- he's not exactly the tactful, diplomatic type). And the Federation, if informed that they're in Imperial space, might just apologize for inadvertently trespassing and withdraw (unless the Empire decides to punish them). The Federation likes its diplomacy and non-interference.

If they're already at war, though, or if Vader engages, I can see the Federation standing its ground.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-09-09 09:49am

Fact of the matter though is that even if the transporter recognizes the lightsaber as a weapon, Vader doesn't particularly need it to wreak havoc aboard your average Federation starship. Piss him off enough and he will literally tear it apart with the power of the Force, choke out the crew one by one, and so forth...
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2015-09-09 04:09pm

I'm obviously not arguing that Vader doesn't have lots of ways to kill people without a lightsaber. Though I don't think it would be in his best interests to destroy the ship with the Force, even if he could. I doubt even Vader could survive such proximity to a warp core breach. ;)

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Venator » 2015-09-09 08:00pm

Based purely on the basics, I'm going to go ahead and vote that Starfleet wouldn't do any better than the Rebels.

1) Federation ships are generally bad at engaging small fighters or even fast gunboats (as seen in numerous engagements with the Jem'Hadar); the given example of the E-D roasting fighters in Conundrum was a showing against a civilization centuries behind in weapon and ship technology.

2) Rebel frigates and corvettes were typically optimized for anti-fighter operations, given the Empires' predilection for drowning things in TIEs.

3) Rebel fighters (and TIEs) have at least an order of magnitude better acceleration and maneuverability than TNG-era fighters like Peregrines.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-10 05:23am

Venator wrote:1) Federation ships are generally bad at engaging small fighters or even fast gunboats (as seen in numerous engagements with the Jem'Hadar); the given example of the E-D roasting fighters in Conundrum was a showing against a civilization centuries behind in weapon and ship technology.

  • What lets you assume that a TIE fighter would fare better than the forty seven sentry pods, each unmanned and twenty-nine meters in length, the Enterprise destroyed in the TNG episode Conundrum?


  • Please list these numerous engagements with the Jem'Hadar, where it is shown that Starfleet ships are generally bad at engaging small fighters or even fast gunboats.

    Even if the engagements do show that, I would want to know, where the problem was.

    Couldn't they target the ships?

    I just watched on YouTube a clip showing the fight between the USS Odyssey and three Jem'Hadar fighters - and noticed that there was not one single miss. Each shown shot hit its target - only that it was not enough to destroy the heavily shielded Jem'Hadar fighter.

    As far as I can remember, most shots shown in Star Trek didn't missed their target. I'm not claiming that there aren't any misses. But StarFleet ships seem to have a good enough targeting that they do not have to saturate the whole space with weapons fire to hit a fighter by chance - as it seems to be necessary in Star Wars, where most shots are missing their target.

Venator wrote:2) Rebel frigates and corvettes were typically optimized for anti-fighter operations, given the Empires' predilection for drowning things in TIEs.

  • cum hoc ergo propter hoc

    Who says that the Empire is not using TIE fighter because the bigger sips in this universe do have an obvious problem hitting them?

    As I have already written: In Star Wars it seems to be necessary to saturate the whole space with weapons fire to hit a fighter by chance. I can not remember an event in Star Wars in which a ship has fired one single shot at a target and has really hit and destroyed it - aside from the Death Stars hitting planets and capital ships with its main weapon and Luke hitting the exhaust port.

Venator wrote:3) Rebel fighters (and TIEs) have at least an order of magnitude better acceleration and maneuverability than TNG-era fighters like Peregrines.

  • Can you provide evidence for this claim?

    I have never seen a Peregrine with maximal acceleration. But I have seen Star Trek I, in which the Enterprise went from Earth to Jupiter (714.000.000 kilometers at this time) in 1,8 hours - requiring an acceleration of at least 3.460 g.

    Is there any scene in the Star Wars movies or series which shows a TE-fighter with an higher acceleration?

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Ted C » 2015-09-15 01:25pm

FaxModem1 wrote:I don't think the excelsiors would do that well at targeting Vader, but we do now that the Enterprise D can handle fighters rather well:

(video)

If needed, targeting of small flying objects at high velocities is a possibility. As for whether or not the Enterprise can do this against a pilot of Vader's skill is unknown.


I wouldn't judge their ability to hit TIE fighters based on shooting at drones that were known to be built using dramatically inferior technology.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby FaxModem1 » 2015-09-15 05:17pm

It shows that a Galaxy class ship, if desired, can hit multiple small targets within a span of seconds. Whether this translates into the Enterprise being able to take out TIE fighters depends on TIE agility, speed and ability to dodge incoming fire. It could very well be that the Starfleet ships miss the TIEs entirely, but it could not.

A better example might be the opening battle from the episode "Pre-Emptive Strike", in which the Enterprise shoots warning shots at the Maquis fighters to get them to stop blasting away at the Cardassians.

PICARD: Mister Worf, are we in firing range?
WORF: Not yet, sir.
PICARD: Arm phasers and photon torpedoes and stand by.
RIKER: I never thought we'd be firing on our own people to protect a Cardassian ship.
DATA: The Maquis ships are regrouping, sir. They are closing in on the Cardassian vessel.
WORF: The Cardassian's shields are down to thirty percent.
RIKER: They may not be able to withstand another hit.
WORF: Sir, we are within weapons range.
PICARD: Mister Worf, can you detonate a torpedo spread between the Maquis ships and the Cardassians?
WORF: Yes, sir.
PICARD: Do it.
(four bolts of light whoosh off)
WORF: The Maquis are breaking formation. They are withdrawing.
PICARD: Signal the Cardassians that we're standing by to assist them if they have any wounded.
WORF: Aye, sir.


Using Trek Core, we have this image of fighters, with Worf able to go between the ships, even between two of the fighters to scare them off.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-09-30 03:00pm

I just watched on YouTube a clip showing the fight between the USS Odyssey and three Jem'Hadar fighters - and noticed that there was not one single miss. Each shown shot hit its target - only that it was not enough to destroy the heavily shielded Jem'Hadar fighter.

Watch it again and you'll notice the runabout that was supposed to intercept the fighter that rammed the Odyssey missed completely.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels fleet switch.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2015-09-30 03:20pm

While the E-D did manage to handily destroy the sentry pods in "Conundrum" they did not appear to be maneuvering very much to evade fire. TIEs, Vader's especially, were much more evasive.

As for ST ships in general being able to fight off Dominion attack fighters, those things are huge compared to single-man TIEs.

But I question whether there would even be a fight. Vader turns up expecting Rebel ships, instead he finds a Federation task force made up of ships he doesn't recognise at all and that are making no overtly hostile moves. Despite the perception of him as a violent brutal enforcer, I suspect even he would decide to investigate first.
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