Iconians vs Empire

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Korgeta
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2009-10-24 05:38pm

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Korgeta » 2015-09-16 08:45pm

I don't think the Empire is actually at the same level of scientific advancements as the federation, their brilliant engineers for sure, constructing huge starships and a moon base (though all these have taken years) but tech wise the federation is arguably better with targeting and more efficient propulsion (arguably) if anything the empire's approach is quite conservative which is why I doubt that the Empire would fare any better then the federation in understanding Iconian technology.

Why the Iconians would probably win is because they seem to match or can rival the Empire's industry but back it with far greater technology like the gateways (with how Picard got back onto the entireprise) by using one of these then the consequences of using these for military uses would be devastating for anyone up against them.

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14947
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: In Denial
Contact:

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Batman » 2015-09-16 09:00pm

Wars: Million c stardrives on civilian freighters. Trek: The freaking Federation flagship peaks out at 10,000 c or so. Wars: KT level firepower at the fighter level. Trek: Maybe MT omniderectional photorps. Wars: Realtime communication across the galaxy. Trek: It takes hours to get a response from Starfleet Command...in the Alpha Quadrant.
And you have to be kidding me about the targetting. Trek ships routinely miss targets a blind man with a slingshot would be hard pressed to miss.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-17 02:20pm

Batman wrote:Wars: Million c stardrives on civilian freighters.

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which distance and duration of a travel is known or the speed of a ship was mentioned?


Batman wrote:Wars: KT level firepower at the fighter level.

Considering the new canon policy, can you give us an event in which a figher showed KT level firepower?

Batman wrote:Wars: Realtime communication across the galaxy.

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which realtime communication across the galaxy was shown?

          And

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event which allows conclusions regarding the size of the galaxy?

Batman wrote:And you have to be kidding me about the targetting. Trek ships routinely miss targets a blind man with a slingshot would be hard pressed to miss.

Please provide evidence that Trek ships ROUTINELY miss targets a blind man with a slingshot would be hard pressed to miss.

I'm not claiming that there aren't any misses. But as far as I thought until now, StarFleet ships seem to have a good enough targeting that they do not have to saturate the whole space with weapons fire to hit a fighter by chance - as it seems to be necessary in Star Wars, where most shots are missing their target.

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10383
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-09-17 03:22pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Batman wrote:Wars: Million c stardrives on civilian freighters.

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which distance and duration of a travel is known or the speed of a ship was mentioned?

At no time has travel time has been implied to last more then 24 hours in fact Han Solo's arrival estimate in ANH makes sense only if he's talking same day travel and that's from Tattooine (outerrim world) to Alderaan (a core world)

Batman wrote:Wars: KT level firepower at the fighter level.

Considering the new canon policy, can you give us an event in which a figher showed KT level firepower?
calculations of the X-wings strafind DS1 surface imply at least 2 kt per shot

Batman wrote:Wars: Realtime communication across the galaxy.

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which realtime communication across the galaxy was shown?
Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones both show real time communication from Corusant to the Outerrim

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event which allows conclusions regarding the size of the galaxy?
The Map in Attack of the Clones shows the Galaxy being a Spiral one with 2 satelites that puts a lower limit to its size as really small galaxies are formless.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10383
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-09-17 03:59pm

oh btw I'm probably heading to my family summer cabin tomorrow so don't expect me to reply until sunday at the earliest
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-18 02:26am

Lord Revan wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event which allows conclusions regarding the size of the galaxy?
The Map in Attack of the Clones shows the Galaxy being a Spiral one with 2 satelites that puts a lower limit to its size as really small galaxies are formless.

No quantification and empty claims.

Please provide evidence that the Star Wars Galaxy is a spiral galaxy.

Please provide evidence that really small galaxies are formless.

Please provide evidence that the seen galaxies were indeed satellite galaxies and not only huge galaxies in the background - considering the perspective.

Please quantify the size of the seen galaxies.

Lord Revan wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which distance and duration of a travel is known or the speed of a ship was mentioned?

At no time has travel time has been implied to last more then 24 hours in fact Han Solo's arrival estimate in ANH makes sense only if he's talking same day travel and that's from Tattooine (outerrim world) to Alderaan (a core world)

Please elaborate.

What's the canonical distance between Tatooine and Alderaan?

What canonical evidence is there that Alderaan is a core world?

What canonical evidence is there that core world means a world in the core of the galaxy - and not a world in the core of the Empire or an important world in the Empire (as it maybe was a founding member of the Republic)?

What canonical evidence is there that Tatooine is an outerrim world?

What canonical evidence is there that Outer Rim means the Outer Rim of the galaxy - and not only the Outer Rim of the Empire or the known parts of the galaxy?

In Star Trek - First Contact, the Enterprise flew from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth and it wasn't implied that the ship needed more than 24 hours. Does this allow us to conclude to any speeds too? You could also call the Romulan Neutral Zone the Outer Rim of the Federation.

Lord Revan wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you give us an event in which a figher showed KT level firepower?
calculations of the X-wings strafind DS1 surface imply at least 2 kt per shot

Please elaborate and provide evidence.

Lord Revan wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which realtime communication across the galaxy was shown?
Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones both show real time communication from Corusant to the Outerrim.

Please elaborate.

Attack of the clones shows Obi Wan trying and failing to reach Couruscant from Geonosis. He had to relay his message via Naboo, which was less than a parsec away.

User avatar
Joun_Lord
Jedi Master
Posts: 1119
Joined: 2014-09-27 01:40am
Location: West by Golly Virginia

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Joun_Lord » 2015-09-18 02:58am

WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which realtime communication across the galaxy was shown?


Episode 1 has Sidious communicating with the Trade Federation around Naboo from Coruscant. Padme communicates with Palpatine from Naboo to Coruscant.

Episode 3 has the entire Jedi Council communicating in real time from all over the galaxy. Palpatine transmits the Order 66 directive to clones all over the galaxy instantly.

Episode 5 has Vader communicating with Palpatine from Hoth to Coruscant in real time.

Also a picture of the Star Wars galaxy from Episode 2.

Image

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-18 04:45am

Joun_Lord wrote:Episode 1 has Sidious communicating with the Trade Federation around Naboo from Coruscant. Padme communicates with Palpatine from Naboo to Coruscant.

Is there any canonical evidence for the distance between Naboo and Coruscant?

Joun_Lord wrote:Episode 3 has the entire Jedi Council communicating in real time from all over the galaxy.

Is there any canonical evidence for the members of the Jedi Council being scattered across the whole galaxy?

Joun_Lord wrote:Palpatine transmits the Order 66 directive to clones all over the galaxy instantly.

Is there any canonical evidence for the Clones being scattered across the whole galaxy?

Joun_Lord wrote:Episode 5 has Vader communicating with Palpatine from Hoth to Coruscant in real time.

Is there any canonical evidence for Palpatine being on Coruscant at this time?
Is there any canonical evidence for the distance between Hoth and Coruscant?

Joun_Lord wrote:Also a picture of the Star Wars galaxy from Episode 2.

Image

This proves what?

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-19 01:06am

Batman wrote:Wars: Realtime communication across the galaxy. Trek: It takes hours to get a response from Starfleet Command...in the Alpha Quadrant.

Please provide evidence for this and state from which period are you speaking?

If Starfleet Command needs hours to decide and response to an enquiry, it says nothing about the possibility of real time communication.

Anyway: In Star Trek - First Contact, the Enterprise at the Romulan Neutral Zone could listen to the battle against the Borg in the Typhon sector.

In Deep Space Nine real time communication between the Station and Earth or the station and Cardassia was no problem.

I can't remember that in the later seasons of TNG or in DS9 the lack of the possibility of real time communication was ever mentioned.

This issue was broached in the Voyager series, as the ship and crew stranded in the Delta Quadrant. But at the end of the Voyager series it was even possible to establish a real time communication between Earth via the Midas array and Voyager in the Delta Quadrant without any subspace relays between the Midas array and Voyager.

Even if you can provide evidence that real time communication at greater distances wasn't possible e.g. in the first season of TNG, it shows only how fast the Federation technology develops, if ten to fifteen years later even a galaxy wide real time communication without the need of a relay network was possible (even if it still was in its infancy).

Adam Reynolds
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2136
Joined: 2004-03-27 04:51am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Adam Reynolds » 2015-09-19 01:41am

While it is often not possible to take dialouge literally, there is no reason to assume that they are not being literal when they refer to distances in Star Wars. Attack of the Clones gives a quote of it being halfway across the galaxy from Coruscant to Geonosis and thus Tatooine(which was only a parsec away from Geonosis). Those are both worlds stated to be in the outer rim.

In ROTS, Mustafar is also stated to be in the outer rim. We know that Palpatine makes the trip from Coruscant to Mustafar in hours given how badly Anakin is wounded. Anakin similarly makes the trip in a starfighter with an endurance likely measured in hours. Obi-Wan makes a trip from Coruscant to a world outside the galaxy(beyond the outer rim).

Unless you are suggesting that the SW galaxy is significantly physically smaller than the ST galaxy, which would be physically impossible with the speeds you are suggesting, SW FTL is massively faster than that of ST. Are you going to suggest that the "Galactic" Republic isn't?

As for the satellite galaxies, we have reference to the intergalactic banking clan.

WATCH-MAN wrote:Even if you can provide evidence that real time communication at greater distances wasn't possible e.g. in the first season of TNG, it shows only how fast the Federation technology develops, if ten to fifteen years later even a galaxy wide real time communication without the need of a relay network was possible (even if it still was in its infancy).

If you are suggesting that Star Wars requires a relay network, AOTC shows that it does not. Obi-Wan's starfighter and hyperdrive ring(a supposition based on his comment that his long range transmitter was knocked out) should have been able to contact Coruscant directly from Geonosis(again, halfway across the galaxy). Obi-Wan instead contacted Anakin, who relayed the message himself from Tatooine to Coruscant(virtually the same distance as Geonosis to Coruscant). If it were a question of a relay network as suggested by the EU, then it would make no sense for Obi-Wan to be unable to reach it.

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-19 04:20am

Adamskywalker007 wrote:While it is often not possible to take dialouge literally, there is no reason to assume that they are not being literal when they refer to distances in Star Wars. Attack of the Clones gives a quote of it being halfway across the galaxy from Coruscant to Geonosis and thus Tatooine(which was only a parsec away from Geonosis). Those are both worlds stated to be in the outer rim.

As you have said yourself, you can't take such sayings literal.

It could be a phrase as today some are saying that they have crossed half of the world or were anywhere and everywhere in the world - although they have never left the planet Earth and were not everywhere. They may have been in each of the 193 nations of Earth - and even that I would doubt. But I'm absolutely sure that they were not in each city, town, village or settlement on Earth - although they claim to have been everywhere in the world already.

Other are speaking of "the other end of the world" without really meaning that there are at least two ends of the world; the one and the other end of the world.

Insofar you can't put too much importance into such a phrase.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:In ROTS, Mustafar is also stated to be in the outer rim. We know that Palpatine makes the trip from Coruscant to Mustafar in hours given how badly Anakin is wounded. Anakin similarly makes the trip in a starfighter with an endurance likely measured in hours. Obi-Wan makes a trip from Coruscant to a world outside the galaxy(beyond the outer rim).

What canonical evidence is there that "Outer Rim" means the outer edge of the galaxy?

Adamskywalker007 wrote:Unless you are suggesting that the SW galaxy is significantly physically smaller than the ST galaxy, which would be physically impossible with the speeds you are suggesting, SW FTL is massively faster than that of ST. Are you going to suggest that the "Galactic" Republic isn't?

I'm not aware that I have suggested anything.

But your sentence begs the question which canon sources we have regarding the size of the Star Wars galaxy.

And I do not understand the argument that it would be impossible for the Star Wars galaxy to be significantly physically smaller than the Milky Way with the speed I'm allegedly suggesting - especially as I'm not aware that I have suggested any speeds. Please elaborate.

And to claim that Star Wars FTL is massively faster than that of Star Trek is circular logic as this is exactly what I want you to prove for which you need distance and time - which is why I have asked if there is any canonical evidence for such data.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:As for the satellite galaxies, we have reference to the intergalactic banking clan.

And?

Does the name of this banking clan really proves that it operates intergalactic?

Does the World Bank Group really operates in the whole world or only on the planet Earth?

Adamskywalker007 wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Even if you can provide evidence that real time communication at greater distances wasn't possible e.g. in the first season of TNG, it shows only how fast the Federation technology develops, if ten to fifteen years later even a galaxy wide real time communication without the need of a relay network was possible (even if it still was in its infancy).

If you are suggesting that Star Wars requires a relay network, AOTC shows that it does not. Obi-Wan's starfighter and hyperdrive ring(a supposition based on his comment that his long range transmitter was knocked out) should have been able to contact Coruscant directly from Geonosis(again, halfway across the galaxy). Obi-Wan instead contacted Anakin, who relayed the message himself from Tatooine to Coruscant(virtually the same distance as Geonosis to Coruscant). If it were a question of a relay network as suggested by the EU, then it would make no sense for Obi-Wan to be unable to reach it.

I'm not sure why you always seem to think that I want to suggest anything.

I haven't said anything about a relay network in the Star Wars galaxy.

But your explanation is not conclusive if you want to prove that there is no relay network as suggested by the EU. If we assume that there is such a relay network, the events of AOTC only prove that Obi-Wans couldn't reach the next relay of this network. But he was able to reach Naboo, which is less than a parsec away from Geonosis. From this facts we can only conclude that the next relay was more than a parsec away from Geonosis. If Anakin relayed the message directly to Coruscant or if his signal from Naboo to Coruscant was relayed by a relay network - we can't know.

But I do not claim that there is a relay network in the Star Wars galaxy. Until I read your post I didn't even know that the EU suggests such a thing. And I do not expect from you to prove that the EU is wrong. The EU isn't canon any more and if someone wants to claim that something the EU says is right, he has to prove that the claim is still supported by the new canon. Ergo: If I wanted to claim that there is a relay network in the Star Wars galaxy as described in the EU, I would have to provide evidence that such network exists in what is canon now.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 26826
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby NecronLord » 2015-09-21 09:42am

WATCH-MAN wrote:Does the World Bank Group really operates in the whole world or only on the planet Earth?


Earth is the world.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-21 11:57am

NecronLord wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Does the World Bank Group really operates in the whole world or only on the planet Earth?


Earth is the world.

I think that depends on how you use that term.

  1. World is a common name for the whole of human civilization, specifically human experience, history, or the human condition in general, worldwide, i.e. anywhere on Earth or pertaining to anywhere on earth.

  2. In a philosophical context it may refer to:
    1. the whole of the physical Universe, or
    2. an ontological world (see world disclosure).

  3. In a theological context, world usually refers to the material or the profane sphere, as opposed to the celestial, spiritual, transcendent or sacred. The "end of the world" refers to scenarios of the final end of human history, often in religious contexts.

Concerning the first definition, one can assume that if the human civilisation were not bound to Earth, the term "world" wouldn't be limited to the planet Earth.

Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28657
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Simon_Jester » 2015-09-25 09:34pm

WATCH-MAN is being grossly obtuse and willfully ignorant of basic facts.

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Batman wrote:Wars: Realtime communication across the galaxy. Trek: It takes hours to get a response from Starfleet Command...in the Alpha Quadrant.

Please provide evidence for this and state from which period are you speaking?

If Starfleet Command needs hours to decide and response to an enquiry, it says nothing about the possibility of real time communication...
To be fair, in Voyager they develop the means to communicate in real time across the galaxy. The Federation has the means for fast galactic communication... what it doesn't have is the infrastructure. Sort of like how in 1850 the United States had the technology to send telegraph messages almost instantly from coast to coast... but there weren't enough physical telegraph wires to make that practical.

Korgeta wrote:I don't think the Empire is actually at the same level of scientific advancements as the federation, their brilliant engineers for sure, constructing huge starships and a moon base (though all these have taken years) but tech wise the federation is arguably better with targeting and more efficient propulsion (arguably) if anything the empire's approach is quite conservative which is why I doubt that the Empire would fare any better then the federation in understanding Iconian technology.
The civilization of Star Wars has pretty clearly mastered scientific principles that let them manipulate matter and energy on scales that the 'ordinary' Star Trek powers cannot match. Also to travel faster (except for short range teleportation), to make stronger and more durable materials, and to build more powerful computers (a self-aware android is a remarkable achievement in Star Trek, but would be a perfectly mundane one-of-trillions thing in Star Wars).

Why the Iconians would probably win is because they seem to match or can rival the Empire's industry but back it with far greater technology like the gateways (with how Picard got back onto the entireprise) by using one of these then the consequences of using these for military uses would be devastating for anyone up against them.
Except for their superior transportation technology, there is little evidence of the Iconians having a higher science than is found in Star Wars. However, that transportation advantage is so large, especially when combined with the Iconians' other strengths, that it might well be decisive.

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Batman wrote:Wars: Million c stardrives on civilian freighters.

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which distance and duration of a travel is known or the speed of a ship was mentioned?
Ships repeatedly travel from places on the 'outer rim' of the galaxy to places near the 'core' of the galaxy in a matter of days if not hours.

Batman wrote:Wars: Realtime communication across the galaxy.

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which realtime communication across the galaxy was shown?
Palpatine and Vader carry on a holographic Skype conversation when Vader is out on the ass end of the galaxy and Palpatine is, by all available evidence, still in his palace. Obi-Wan and Anakin have a similar conversation in Episode II.

Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event which allows conclusions regarding the size of the galaxy?
There is nothing about the Star Wars galaxy which suggests it is significantly smaller than the Milky Way, therefore Occam's Razor suggests it is of typical size for a spiral galaxy.

WATCH-MAN wrote:No quantification and empty claims.

Please provide evidence that the Star Wars Galaxy is a spiral galaxy.
It is depicted as one in an in-universe map, what more evidence do you want?

Please provide evidence that really small galaxies are formless.
They don't have enough mass to form a compact core with trailing spiral arms. Dwarf spiral galaxies less than, oh, 15000 light years across exist, but they're very rare, whereas normal-sized spiral galaxies (like the Milky Way) are more common. Therefore, unless you have consistent evidence to the contrary, there is no reason to assume that the Star Wars galaxy is a dwarf spiral.

Lord Revan wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which distance and duration of a travel is known or the speed of a ship was mentioned?
At no time has travel time has been implied to last more then 24 hours in fact Han Solo's arrival estimate in ANH makes sense only if he's talking same day travel and that's from Tattooine (outerrim world) to Alderaan (a core world)
Please elaborate.

What's the canonical distance between Tatooine and Alderaan?
There is no reason to assume the two systems are unusually close together. Moreover, ALL hyperspace trips in Star Wars take periods measured in days. We never see anyone spending months in transit from one place to another. Obi-Wan travels to 'remote' and poorly documented star systems that the core leadership of the Republic is largely ignorant of, from the very center of galactic civilization, in a single-seat fighter- not a spacecraft you could spend long periods of time in comfortably. Every single trip we see shares this feature of taking hours or days, not months.

What canonical evidence is there that Alderaan is a core world?
Large population, high political status. It could be out towards the galactic rim, sure- but most of the rim is farther from a given point on the rim than most of the core is, just because of how geometry works.

What canonical evidence is there that Tatooine is an outerrim world?
That it is regarded as extremely poor, primitive, uncivilized, and is a place where random crime lords and such are tolerated..

In Star Trek - First Contact, the Enterprise flew from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth and it wasn't implied that the ship needed more than 24 hours. Does this allow us to conclude to any speeds too? You could also call the Romulan Neutral Zone the Outer Rim of the Federation.
The big problem with this is that in one of the main canonical Star Trek TV shows, literally the entire plot hinges on the idea that it takes decades of sustained travel for a Starfleet vessel to cross the galaxy under its own power.

Which means either the Romulan Neutral Zone is awfully close to Earth, or something funny is going on... and we can't explain it away with "all Trek ships are very fast" without totally invalidating the whole plot of Voyager.

Lord Revan wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you give us an event in which a figher showed KT level firepower?
calculations of the X-wings strafind DS1 surface imply at least 2 kt per shot
Please elaborate and provide evidence.[/quote]
Lord Revan wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which realtime communication across the galaxy was shown?
Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones both show real time communication from Corusant to the Outerrim.

Please elaborate.[/quote]Here you are being willfully obtuse. One of these has been up for about a decade, and the other is a major scene in the movie.

Attack of the clones shows Obi Wan trying and failing to reach Couruscant from Geonosis. He had to relay his message via Naboo, which was less than a parsec away.
Since we've already established that George Lucas has no idea what a parsec means, that's a silly standard. Especially since basic stellar physics tends to govern the distance between star systems and it is absurd to think that major populated systems are three light-years apart. Particularly since at such short range the Naboo would be highly familiar with the Geonosians and could hardly fail to notice their war preparations and buddying up to the same Trade Federation which had oppressed them so recently.

Plus, even if Obi-Wan needs a relay, it doesn't matter because that has nothing to do with communication speed. It only affects signal strength and ability to communicate through interference.












Anyway: In Star Trek - First Contact, the Enterprise at the Romulan Neutral Zone could listen to the battle against the Borg in the Typhon sector.

In Deep Space Nine real time communication between the Station and Earth or the station and Cardassia was no problem.

I can't remember that in the later seasons of TNG or in DS9 the lack of the possibility of real time communication was ever mentioned.

This issue was broached in the Voyager series, as the ship and crew stranded in the Delta Quadrant. But at the end of the Voyager series it was even possible to establish a real time communication between Earth via the Midas array and Voyager in the Delta Quadrant without any subspace relays between the Midas array and Voyager.

Even if you can provide evidence that real time communication at greater distances wasn't possible e.g. in the first season of TNG, it shows only how fast the Federation technology develops, if ten to fifteen years later even a galaxy wide real time communication without the need of a relay network was possible (even if it still was in its infancy).[/quote]

WATCH-MAN wrote:
Adamskywalker007 wrote:While it is often not possible to take dialouge literally, there is no reason to assume that they are not being literal when they refer to distances in Star Wars. Attack of the Clones gives a quote of it being halfway across the galaxy from Coruscant to Geonosis and thus Tatooine(which was only a parsec away from Geonosis). Those are both worlds stated to be in the outer rim.
As you have said yourself, you can't take such sayings literal.

It could be a phrase as today some are saying that they have crossed half of the world or were anywhere and everywhere in the world - although they have never left the planet Earth and were not everywhere. They may have been in each of the 193 nations of Earth - and even that I would doubt. But I'm absolutely sure that they were not in each city, town, village or settlement on Earth - although they claim to have been everywhere in the world already.

Other are speaking of "the other end of the world" without really meaning that there are at least two ends of the world; the one and the other end of the world.

Insofar you can't put too much importance into such a phrase.
Except you don't see people using such a phrase when they mean the opposite. People don't say "the other side of the world" when they actually mean "fifty miles away," except as deliberate sarcasm or hyperbole.

And I do not understand the argument that it would be impossible for the Star Wars galaxy to be significantly physically smaller than the Milky Way with the speed I'm allegedly suggesting - especially as I'm not aware that I have suggested any speeds. Please elaborate
Your ignorance of astrophysics is not my fault.

Spiral galaxies tend to be rather large. We have maps of the Star Wars galaxy and it is a spiral. Therefore, while it may not be as large as the Milky Way, Occam's Razor suggests that it is at least on the same order of magnitude. There is no observed instance of anything remotely like a spiral galaxy existing that was, oh, only a hundred light years across.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:As for the satellite galaxies, we have reference to the intergalactic banking clan.

And?

Does the name of this banking clan really proves that it operates intergalactic?

Does the World Bank Group really operates in the whole world or only on the planet Earth?
"World," in the English language, generally refers to the Earth. "The world" refers to the entire region inhabited by humans, namely the Earth and at most its immediate surroundings in space. And the World Bank does indeed operate throughout the world. The Bank of America operates widely throughout America.

There is no reason TO assume that the Intergalactic Banking Clan does not operate intergalactically.

See, the problem here is that you're having to add massive numbers of epicycles to your theory to justify anything other than very high travel speeds in Star Wars. You need large dignified organizations to have deliberately misleading names. You need the Star Wars galaxy to be a tiny thing of an astronomically unlikely type that we've never observed in nature. You need countless overlapping weird things and strange coincidences to all be true.

Moreover, if the Star Wars galaxy is significantly larger than the regions the Republic actually occupies, you need an 'idiot plot' to explain the events of Star Wars. For example, you're the CIS. You're building up a secret army to attack the Republic. Why would you put it close to the center of the Republic? You'd put it as far away as you could. If the galaxy is a huge place it would take a year to cross, you surely wouldn't put your secret base within a day or two's travel of the heart of the Republic you seek to overthrow! Not when you are going to need years of careful preparations to get into position to attack at all.

Similar objections apply to the rebellion in Star Wars. Sure, they'd need forward basing near the Empire they sought to attack, but why would their main base be located that close to Imperial territory, if there is a vast unexplored galactic hinterland they can fade into where Imperial patrols would have to blunder around for weeks to even reach them?
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10383
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-09-25 11:03pm

BTW Simon the STO mission "midnight" gave us better look at Iconian Techology and while some technolgy (like anti-grav tech) seems similar to the empire their military tech seems to be weaker then other technologies would imply and their Network security is laughbly bad consisting of 2 math questions with the Iconians beliving that only they were intelligent enough to solve those questions.

the Iconians main strength seems be their ability appear anywhere they wish and that Iconians themselves seem to be essentially impossible to kill with conventional weapons (though there's only 12 Iconians after the destruction of Iconia and before that)[spoiler=STO spoiler]Iconians were flesh and blood just like everyone else and still quite rare (just how rare was not said though).[/spoiler]
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-26 04:08am

Simon_Jester wrote:WATCH-MAN is being grossly obtuse and willfully ignorant of basic facts.
Maybe I am "grossly obtuse and [...] ignorant of basic facts."

Maybe I am not and you are full of misconceptions.

It's relative easy to find out.

Prove your claims.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which distance and duration of a travel is known or the speed of a ship was mentioned?
Ships repeatedly travel from places on the 'outer rim' of the galaxy to places near the 'core' of the galaxy in a matter of days if not hours.
Considering the new canon policy, please provide evidence that the "Outer Rim" means the outer edge of their galaxy.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:
Batman wrote:Wars: Realtime communication across the galaxy.
Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event in which realtime communication across the galaxy was shown?
Palpatine and Vader carry on a holographic Skype conversation when Vader is out on the ass end of the galaxy and Palpatine is, by all available evidence, still in his palace. Obi-Wan and Anakin have a similar conversation in Episode II.
Considering the new canon policy, please provide evidence that there is a "palace" and that Palpatine was there.

When had Obi-Wan and Anakin in Episode II a conversation across the galaxy?

I can remember that in Episode II Obi Wan, when on Geonosis, could just reach Tatooine which was less than a parsec away from Geonosis, but not Coruscant, which distance to Geonosis is, as fas as I know, not known.

If there is another event in which Obi-Wan and Anakin talked with each other, please provide evidence for the distance between them.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, can you refer to an event which allows conclusions regarding the size of the galaxy?
There is nothing about the Star Wars galaxy which suggests it is significantly smaller than the Milky Way, therefore Occam's Razor suggests it is of typical size for a spiral galaxy.
That conclusion is not conclusive.

There are many different kinds of galaxies in many different sizes.

Most galaxies are - compared to the Milky Way - rather small.

In the Local Group there are more than 54 galaxies. The Andromeda galaxy and the Milky Way are the largest galaxies in the Local Group. The Triangulum Galaxy, , the third largestgalaxy in the Local Group, has only a diameter of 60,000 ly or a mass of 5 × 10^10 solar masses - whereas the Milky Way has a diameter of 100,000–180,000 ly and a mass of 0.8–1.5×10^12 solar masses. All other galaxies in the Local Group are significantly smaller.

Please provide evidence that the Milky Way somehow is the universal standard and that, if we have no otherwise provided informations, we have to assume that a galaxy has to be similar in its properties to the Milky Way.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:No quantification and empty claims.

Please provide evidence that the Star Wars Galaxy is a spiral galaxy.
It is depicted as one in an in-universe map, what more evidence do you want?
Please provide me we an image of this in-universe map that depicts the Star Wars Galaxy as a spiral galaxy.

Looking at the image provided above from Joun_Lord, I can't really ascertain that a spiral galaxy is depicted. I think the image is not distinct enough to make out any spiral arms, or to draw meaningful conclusions about its morphology or its dimensions.

But maybe you can provide professional image analysis and prove - not claim - that we are seeing a spiral galaxy with a diameter similar or even larger that that of the Milky Way.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Please provide evidence that really small galaxies are formless.

They don't have enough mass to form a compact core with trailing spiral arms. Dwarf spiral galaxies less than, oh, 15000 light years across exist, but they're very rare, whereas normal-sized spiral galaxies (like the Milky Way) are more common. Therefore, unless you have consistent evidence to the contrary, there is no reason to assume that the Star Wars galaxy is a dwarf spiral.
Considering the new canon policy, please provide evidence that the Star Wars galaxy has trailing spiral arms and is a spiral galaxy.

Please provide evidence that the Milky Way is a normal-sized spiral galaxy; that most spiral galaxies have a diameter of 100,000–180,000 ly. The Triangulum galaxy for example is far smaller.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:What's the canonical distance between Tatooine and Alderaan?


There is no reason to assume the two systems are unusually close together.
Why not?

The movies have shown that in the Star Wars galaxy inhabited worlds are rather close together.

In Episode I they could fly with a defect hyperdrive from Naboo to Tatooine. But they could not reach another save world of the Republic which means that Naboo and Tatooin have to be rather close together.

In Episode II Padme states that Geonosis is less than a parsec away from Tatooine.

In Episode V, the Millenium Falcon could fly without its hyperdrive from the Hooth system to the Anoat system to the Bespin system.

In the movies and in The Clone Wars or in Rebels, most things happen on the same planets - as if there are not myriad of planets on which things could happen. And most planets on which things are happening are rather lightly populated. And there are always the same persons with importance as if on a galactic level the individual wouldn't become more or less meaningless.

If at all, the movies do not left me with the impression that the Star Wars galaxy is rather large or that the distances between the planets are especially big or that the galaxy is densely populated.
Simon_Jester wrote:Moreover, ALL hyperspace trips in Star Wars take periods measured in days.
That's meaningless if we do not know the distances.

Simon_Jester wrote:We never see anyone spending months in transit from one place to another.
That does not mean that it does not happen.

But it would be quite boring to watch such thing.

On the other side: In TNG it is seldom implied that a travel needs more than a few days.

In Best of Both worlds, it is not implied that the Enterprise needed months to follow the Borg cube to Earth.

It is not implied that in First Contact the fleet needed month to follow the Borg cube to Earth or that the Enterprise needed month from the Romulan Neutral zone to Earth.
Simon_Jester wrote:Obi-Wan travels to 'remote' and poorly documented star systems that the core leadership of the Republic is largely ignorant of, from the very center of galactic civilization, in a single-seat fighter- not a spacecraft you could spend long periods of time in comfortably. Every single trip we see shares this feature of taking hours or days, not months.
Please provide evidence about the distance between Coruscant and Camino?
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:What canonical evidence is there that Alderaan is a core world?
Large population, high political status. It could be out towards the galactic rim, sure- but most of the rim is farther from a given point on the rim than most of the core is, just because of how geometry works.
Considering the new canon, please provide evidence that Alderaan has a large population or a high political status. One could assume that if the Empire destroys the whole planet, it regards it as rather dispensable.

Please provide evidence that important worlds or developed worlds have to be in the core (or rather bulge) of a galaxy, that somehow the civilisation in a galaxy origins from its core and spreads out to the edge of the galaxy with the planets in the bulge of the galaxy being the most important and most developed planets while the planets at the edge of the galaxy can only be backwater planets.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:What canonical evidence is there that Tatooine is an outerrim world?
That it is regarded as extremely poor, primitive, uncivilized, and is a place where random crime lords and such are tolerated...
Please provide evidence that important worlds or developed worlds have to be in the core (or rather bulge) of a galaxy, that somehow the civilisation in a galaxy origins from its core and spreads out to the edge of the galaxy with the planets in the bulge of the galaxy being the most important and most developed planets while the planets at the edge of the galaxy can only be backwater planets.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:In Star Trek - First Contact, the Enterprise flew from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth and it wasn't implied that the ship needed more than 24 hours. Does this allow us to conclude to any speeds too? You could also call the Romulan Neutral Zone the Outer Rim of the Federation.
The big problem with this is that in one of the main canonical Star Trek TV shows, literally the entire plot hinges on the idea that it takes decades of sustained travel for a Starfleet vessel to cross the galaxy under its own power.

Which means either the Romulan Neutral Zone is awfully close to Earth, or something funny is going on... and we can't explain it away with "all Trek ships are very fast" without totally invalidating the whole plot of Voyager..

But we can explain it without invalidating the whole plot of Voyager.

It is easily imaginable that Star Trek ships can fly faster in regions they know than in regions they do not know.

This is even supported by Voyager as getting better charts allows the Voyager to get home faster - e.g. when they constructed the new astrometrics lab on Voyager and could plot a new course to Earth that will slash five years from their travel to Earth - or when Q provided Janeway with a map that would shave three years off Voyager's journey home.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:calculations of the X-wings strafind DS1 surface imply at least 2 kt per shot
Please elaborate and provide evidence.
WATCH-MAN wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones both show real time communication from Corusant to the Outerrim.
Please elaborate.
Here you are being willfully obtuse. One of these has been up for about a decade,
Than it should be quite easy to elaborate.
Do not expect that I know what others have debated for about a decade.
Simon_Jester wrote:and the other is a major scene in the movie.
The question is if your understanding of the scene in the movie is the same as mine.
Simon_Jester wrote:
Attack of the clones shows Obi Wan trying and failing to reach Couruscant from Geonosis. He had to relay his message via Naboo, which was less than a parsec away.
Since we've already established that George Lucas has no idea what a parsec means,
I didn't know that we had already established that.
Simon_Jester wrote:that's a silly standard.
Not really.
If we disregard all that we do not like with the argument that the director or screenwriter didn't know it better, we can stop to continue this debate.

The same argument can be made for most things in Star Trek or Star Wars.
Simon_Jester wrote:Especially since basic stellar physics tends to govern the distance between star systems and it is absurd to think that major populated systems are three light-years apart.
The movies have shown that in the Star Wars galaxy inhabited worlds are rather close together.

In Episode I they could fly with a defect hyperdrive from Naboo to Tatooine. But they could not reach another save world of the Republic which means that Naboo and Tatooin have to be rather close together.

In Episode II Padme states that Geonosis is less than a parsec away from Tatooine.

In Episode V, the Millenium Falcon could fly without its hyperdrive from the Hooth system to the Anoat system to the Bespin system.

In the movies and in The Clone Wars or in Rebels, most things happen on the same planets - as if there are not myriad of planets on which things could happen. And most planets on which things are happening are rather lightly populated. And there are always the same persons with importance as if on a galactic level the individual wouldn't become more or less meaningless.

If at all, the movies do not left me with the impression that the Star Wars galaxy is rather large or that the distances between the planets are especially big or that the galaxy is densely populated.
Simon_Jester wrote:Particularly since at such short range the Naboo would be highly familiar with the Geonosians and could hardly fail to notice their war preparations and buddying up to the same Trade Federation which had oppressed them so recently.
The factories on Geonosis are underground. The ships seen on Geonosis were trade ships. How should Naboo know that?
Simon_Jester wrote:Plus, even if Obi-Wan needs a relay, it doesn't matter because that has nothing to do with communication speed. It only affects signal strength and ability to communicate through interference.
Please provide evidence that the speed of their hyperspace-signal does not depends on its strength.

Look e.g. at the TNG episode "Where No One Has Gone Before". There the Enterprise was 2,700,000 light years away from Earth an it was stated that a subspace message send to Starfleet should be received in fifty-one years and ten months (18,920 days - 454,080 hours - 27,244,800 minutes). That means that the signal should have a speed of round about 1 light year in ten minutes. With such a speed, real time communication as shown in Star Trek shouldn't be possible. Conclusion: The supspace message gets slower.
WATCH-MAN wrote:Anyway: In Star Trek - First Contact, the Enterprise at the Romulan Neutral Zone could listen to the battle against the Borg in the Typhon sector.

In Deep Space Nine real time communication between the Station and Earth or the station and Cardassia was no problem.

I can't remember that in the later seasons of TNG or in DS9 the lack of the possibility of real time communication was ever mentioned.

This issue was broached in the Voyager series, as the ship and crew stranded in the Delta Quadrant. But at the end of the Voyager series it was even possible to establish a real time communication between Earth via the Midas array and Voyager in the Delta Quadrant without any subspace relays between the Midas array and Voyager.

Even if you can provide evidence that real time communication at greater distances wasn't possible e.g. in the first season of TNG, it shows only how fast the Federation technology develops, if ten to fifteen years later even a galaxy wide real time communication without the need of a relay network was possible (even if it still was in its infancy).
Why are you quoting that part if you do not have something to say to it?
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:
Adamskywalker007 wrote:While it is often not possible to take dialouge literally, there is no reason to assume that they are not being literal when they refer to distances in Star Wars. Attack of the Clones gives a quote of it being halfway across the galaxy from Coruscant to Geonosis and thus Tatooine(which was only a parsec away from Geonosis). Those are both worlds stated to be in the outer rim.
As you have said yourself, you can't take such sayings literal.

It could be a phrase as today some are saying that they have crossed half of the world or were anywhere and everywhere in the world - although they have never left the planet Earth and were not everywhere. They may have been in each of the 193 nations of Earth - and even that I would doubt. But I'm absolutely sure that they were not in each city, town, village or settlement on Earth - although they claim to have been everywhere in the world already.

Other are speaking of "the other end of the world" without really meaning that there are at least two ends of the world; the one and the other end of the world.

Insofar you can't put too much importance into such a phrase.
Except you don't see people using such a phrase when they mean the opposite. People don't say "the other side of the world" when they actually mean "fifty miles away," except as deliberate sarcasm or hyperbole.
Which phrase do you mean? I have provided several phrases. And I know that there are people that are speaking of the other end of the world when they are speaking e.g. of Australia which lies on the opposite side of Earth from them.
They aren't only using it as deliberate sarcasm or hyperbole.

But - and that is the important question - who says that in Star Wars, when such a phrase is used, it isn't used as deliberate sarcasm or hyperbole?
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:And I do not understand the argument that it would be impossible for the Star Wars galaxy to be significantly physically smaller than the Milky Way with the speed I'm allegedly suggesting - especially as I'm not aware that I have suggested any speeds. Please elaborate
Your ignorance of astrophysics is not my fault.
If there were an ignorance of astrophysics on my side, it wouldn't be your fault.
But it would be on you to provide evidence. Please enlighten me.
Simon_Jester wrote:Spiral galaxies tend to be rather large. We have maps of the Star Wars galaxy and it is a spiral. Therefore, while it may not be as large as the Milky Way, Occam's Razor suggests that it is at least on the same order of magnitude. There is no observed instance of anything remotely like a spiral galaxy existing that was, oh, only a hundred light years across.
Please provide evidence that the Star Wars galaxy is a spiral galaxy and provide evidence that it is rather large.

Please provide that canonical map that shows that the Star Wars galaxy is a spiral galaxy.

Looking at the image provided above from Joun_Lord, I can't really ascertain that a spiral galaxy is depicted. I think the image is not distinct enough to make out any spiral arms, or to draw meaningful conclusions about its morphology or its dimensions.

But maybe you can provide professional image analysis and prove - not claim - that we are seeing a spiral galaxy with a diameter similar or even larger that that of the Milky Way.
Simon_Jester wrote:
WATCH-MAN wrote:Does the name of this banking clan really proves that it operates intergalactic?

Does the World Bank Group really operates in the whole world or only on the planet Earth?
"World," in the English language, generally refers to the Earth. "The world" refers to the entire region inhabited by humans, namely the Earth and at most its immediate surroundings in space. And the World Bank does indeed operate throughout the world. The Bank of America operates widely throughout America.

There is no reason TO assume that the Intergalactic Banking Clan does not operate intergalactically.
See, the problem here is that you're having to add massive numbers of epicycles to your theory to justify anything other than very high travel speeds in Star Wars. You need large dignified organizations to have deliberately misleading names. You need the Star Wars galaxy to be a tiny thing of an astronomically unlikely type that we've never observed in nature. You need countless overlapping weird things and strange coincidences to all be true.[/quote]Which epicycles?

Please provide evidence that the intergalactic banking clan is a large dignified organization.

Please show where I am claiming that there are other organizations with deliberately misleading names.

We have observed galaxies that are far smaller than the Milky Way. In fact: Most galaxies are far smaller than the Milky Way.

If the Star Wars galaxy were indeed as big as you claim, it were even more improbable that most events happened again and again on the same planets with the same persons as if there were not myriad of planets and persons in that galaxy.
Simon_Jester wrote:Moreover, if the Star Wars galaxy is significantly larger than the regions the Republic actually occupies, you need an 'idiot plot' to explain the events of Star Wars. For example, you're the CIS. You're building up a secret army to attack the Republic. Why would you put it close to the center of the Republic? You'd put it as far away as you could. If the galaxy is a huge place it would take a year to cross, you surely wouldn't put your secret base within a day or two's travel of the heart of the Republic you seek to overthrow! Not when you are going to need years of careful preparations to get into position to attack at all.
The problem with that logic is that the CIS can not choose where the planets are on which they are living. The CIS consists of planets that want to leave the Republic. Conclusion: They are already in the Republic.
Simon_Jester wrote:Similar objections apply to the rebellion in Star Wars. Sure, they'd need forward basing near the Empire they sought to attack, but why would their main base be located that close to Imperial territory, if there is a vast unexplored galactic hinterland they can fade into where Imperial patrols would have to blunder around for weeks to even reach them?
Maybe because the unexplored galactic hinterland is unexplored an too far away to allow a rebellion to effectively rebel against the Empire. A rebellion has to happen in the state and not far away from it.

User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Master
Posts: 1313
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Esquire » 2015-09-27 06:43pm

WATCH-MAN wrote:Considering the new canon policy, please provide evidence that the "Outer Rim" means the outer edge of their galaxy.


Since any other interpretation would be so blatantly opposite to the clear meaning of the phrase, please provide evidence that it does not. The burden of proof is on you, since you're suggesting a twisted interpretation out of line with observed astronomical fact (spiral galaxies are not usually significantly smaller than the Milky Way). We see galactic-scale maps without any politcal boundary lines; manifestly the Outer Rim is the approximate outer rim of the galaxy, not of the Republic. Which is galactic in scale, anyway, as referenced by Emperor Palpatine's proclamation of the "Galactic Empire" at the end of ROTS.


If at all, the movies do not left me with the impression that the Star Wars galaxy is rather large or that the distances between the planets are especially big or that the galaxy is densely populated.


This is convenient, because - as we can all agree - your impressions are sufficient proof to ignore common sense.

Simon_Jester wrote:We never see anyone spending months in transit from one place to another.
That does not mean that it does not happen.


But it does mean that none of the hyperspace trips shown in the movies, including several from Core worlds to ones on the Outer Rim, take more than at most a few days. Please provide evidence, under the new canon policy, that certain trips of a given distance should take massively longer than others.

In Episode I they could fly with a defect hyperdrive from Naboo to Tatooine. But they could not reach another save world of the Republic which means that Naboo and Tatooin have to be rather close together.


Or that hyperspace travel between the two is easier than normal for some reason, or that Tatooine was the closest world likely to have replacement parts, or any number of other reasons. Please provide evidence, under the new canon policy, that these worlds are unusually close together.

Please provide evidence that the intergalactic banking clan is a large dignified organization.


They are able to contribute enough to money and/or materiel to get a seat on the Separatist Council, the leadership of a body that credibly threatened to overthrow the central government of a galactic-scale polity. If that doesn't count as large and influential, what do you imagine would?

Please show where I am claiming that there are other organizations with deliberately misleading names.


Please stop being a pedant.

Simon_Jester wrote:Similar objections apply to the rebellion in Star Wars. Sure, they'd need forward basing near the Empire they sought to attack, but why would their main base be located that close to Imperial territory, if there is a vast unexplored galactic hinterland they can fade into where Imperial patrols would have to blunder around for weeks to even reach them?
Maybe because the unexplored galactic hinterland is unexplored an too far away to allow a rebellion to effectively rebel against the Empire. A rebellion has to happen in the state and not far away from it.


This is, if not entirely contrary to historical precedent, then at least not universally supported. The American Revolution happened at the furthest then-current extent of the British Empire; numerous African and South American rebel groups survive by hiding out in exactly the kind of sparsely-populated hinterland you're inventing for the Star Wars galaxy.

To synthesize, you're positing a lot of things which are quite contrary to common sense, as well as some that violate physics and formal logic. The burden of proof, therefore, is on you to show that the Star Wars galaxy is incredibly (and I mean that literally) small and dense, that organizations with names like the Galactic Empire and Intergalactic Banking Clan are in fact confined to a small region, and that when characters say things like "across the Galaxy," they really mean "five lightyears away." You might also consider elaborating on your argument, if any, instead of just repeating "not sufficient proof, neener-neener" ad nauseam. I'd also - to go back a post - recommend not making semantics arguments in a language that you clearly aren't flawlessly proficient in.
"Statistics mean nothing to the individual." Dr. Perry Cox, Scrubs

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-28 10:10am

Esquire wrote:Since any other interpretation would be so blatantly opposite to the clear meaning of the phrase

Since when is "Outer Rim" a phrase or something as an astrophysical term.

In Star Wars it is the name of a region. It's probably that the name has something to do with its characteristics, that it is the name of a region that lies at the outer edge of something. But it could be the outer edge of a star cluster, the outer edge of the Republic or the outer edge of the explored space. I see no reason to prefer the one alternative over the others.

Esquire wrote:The burden of proof is on you, since you're suggesting a twisted interpretation

Why should it be a twisted interpretation if one argues that "Outer Rim" could refer to the outer edge of a star cluster, the outer edge of the Republic or the outer edge of the explored space?

And I'm not saying that it is the one alternative.

You are the one who says that only the outer edge of the galaxy does made sense.

But did you know that there is an "Outer Rim" in Star Trek too?

Does this mean that the Enterprise D spent some time at the outer edge of the Milky Way?

It has to be when you argue that this is the only way the term "Outer Rim" could be understood.

(According to Wikipedia, the sun's distance to Galactic Center is round about 27 kly. And the Milky Way has a diameter of at least 100 kly. That means that the edge of the Milky Way is round about 73 kly away from the sun.)

Esquire wrote:out of line with observed astronomical fact (spiral galaxies are not usually significantly smaller than the Milky Way).

Which astronomical facts did you observe?

Which evidence do you have that the Star Was galaxy is a spiral galaxies at all?

At this point, I'd like to to refer you to this thread as I do not want to have the same discussion here.

Esquire wrote:We see galactic-scale maps without any politcal boundary lines;

Do you claim that there are no other political bodies in the Star Wars galaxy?

It seems so if you think that the absence of political boundary lines in the maps mean that there are no political boundary lines as if there were any they would have been in the map.

Esquire wrote:manifestly the Outer Rim is the approximate outer rim of the galaxy, not of the Republic.

Without knowing the dimension and morphology of the Republic, you could you tell?

Why is it not possible - or why has it to be twisted - if the Outer Rim refers to the outer edge of a star cluster, the outer edge of the Republic or the outer edge of the explored space?

Esquire wrote:Which is galactic in scale, anyway, as referenced by Emperor Palpatine's proclamation of the "Galactic Empire" at the end of ROTS.

The name a megalomaniac dictator has given his empire is not really good evidence to conclude to any characteristics of said empire.


Esquire wrote:This is convenient, because - as we can all agree - your impressions are sufficient proof to ignore common sense.

No.

My impression is surly not enough to ignore common sense. But it is enough to demand evidence. You can not influence one impression with claims without any evidence.

Esquire wrote:But it does mean that none of the hyperspace trips shown in the movies, including several from Core worlds to ones on the Outer Rim, take more than at most a few days. Please provide evidence, under the new canon policy, that certain trips of a given distance should take massively longer than others.

Excuse my - but that's your claim - not mine. I do not have to disprove you.

My opinion is that the time frame of many journeys showed in the movies is difficult to estimate.

Esquire wrote:
In Episode I they could fly with a defect hyperdrive from Naboo to Tatooine. But they could not reach another save world of the Republic which means that Naboo and Tatooin have to be rather close together.

Or that hyperspace travel between the two is easier than normal for some reason,

You are right - that would be possible too - but with that you are referring to an unknown.

Esquire wrote:or that Tatooine was the closest world likely to have replacement parts,

You are right - that would be possible too - but it seems unlikely as - as it seems - they had luck that they had found the replacement parts at Watto's at all.

Esquire wrote:or any number of other reasons.

You are right - that would be possible too - but with that you are referring to an unknown.

Esquire wrote:Please provide evidence, under the new canon policy, that these worlds are unusually close together.

Do you really think that I am supposed to provide evidence that the unknown reasons you have referred to do not apply?

Esquire wrote:They are able to contribute enough to money and/or materiel to get a seat on the Separatist Council, the leadership of a body that credibly threatened to overthrow the central government of a galactic-scale polity. If that doesn't count as large and influential, what do you imagine would?

That only means that the Intergalactic Banking Clan is rich. It does not mean that it is a large dignified organization.


Esquire wrote:This is, if not entirely contrary to historical precedent, then at least not universally supported. The American Revolution happened at the furthest then-current extent of the British Empire;

As they were separated from the beginning.

But if you look at insurgencies in more or less civilized nations - as in North Ireland, the Basque Country, Chechnya, Kosovo and so on, you'l notice that the rebels did not hid somewhere far away from where they wanted to be.

Esquire wrote:numerous African and South American rebel groups survive by hiding out in exactly the kind of sparsely-populated hinterland you're inventing for the Star Wars galaxy.

Please provide evidence for this claim.

Although I think it is irrelevant as I do not doubt that such things happen.

User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Master
Posts: 1313
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Esquire » 2015-09-30 12:30am

My apologies for the delay; real life got very busy over the last few days.

Anyway, I've had a look at the other thread meantioned, and I'm going to quote something Eternal_Freedom said to you in it:

Eternal_Freedom wrote:You keep asking for evidence of every little thing. Let's be honest here. There is no "objective evidence" that you will accept. We can only provide suppositions, logical inferences and extrapolations.


To address all your points at once - and by points, I should specify that I really mean 'mulish petulancies' - you're insisting on a standard of proof that is massively higher than the one usually used in this sort of debate. Moreover, it's higher than the one used in actual science. It's higher than the one used in goddamn murder trials; you're not just refusing go by preponderance of the evidence, best-non-falsified-theory, or beyond-a-reasonable-doubt, you're insisting that we catch every single detail red-handed, as it were, no matter how insignificant. Do you insist that somebody provide this level of evidence for gravity, by any chance? The canon DVD commentary for ESB proves that the Rebel fleet managed to get significantly outside the galaxy and back in time to still be significant to the plot and clearly shows the spiral form of the galaxy. Before you ask, no, I'm not going to have the image analyzed professionally; you arrange that if you really feel like it. We know it's a spiral galaxy because it's a galaxy that's shaped like a goddam spiral.

In rational investigation, we default to the simplest explanation until given a reason not to. The simplest explanation for the very rapid transit times between Star Wars systems is that they have very fast ships; that a human from Earth with no specific astronomical expertise made his fictional galaxy broadly similar to the only one he has any experience with; that characters are not being deliberately misleading when they have no reason to be. Your alternative theory requires so many convolutions, from an abnormally-dense galaxy to every single normal-conversation reference to distance and scale being a deliberate deception, that the burden of proof is firmly on you. Please provide evidence that the Star Wars galaxy is not of a typical size for a spiral galaxy and that Star Wars hyperdrive is not fast enough to cross galactic distances in at most weeks, or else admit that you're just being difficult.

As specifically relates to the term 'Outer Rim,' will you at least concede that an Outer Rim has to be the Outer Rim of something? If so, the two immediately-obvious options are that it is the Outer Rim of either the galaxy or the Republic. I posit that it is the Outer Rim of the galaxy because, see TPM, Tatooine is in the Outer Rim but not in the Republic; see AOTC, Kamino is beyond the Outer Rim as well as beyond the galactic rim if they are different, and it would be silly to say the first but not the second; see ROTS, the Republic is engaged in active sieges in the Outer Rim - i.e, in territory not held by it, although I admit this could make sense either way. It's been to long for me to remember ANH well enough to cite anything there, but in ESB, as mentioned above, we get to see the galactic plane from outside it, indicating that the whole galaxy is relevant to GFFA distance language. In multiple movies the central government is called 'Galactic,' individual organizations called 'Intergalactic,' and nobody questions that, so GFFA civilization must be on at least a plausibly-galactic scale. This is all anecdotal evidence, I admit that freely, but so far you've done nothing to provide a better alternate theory. Again, the preponderance of the evidence and the most parsimonious theory both suggest a large galaxy and fast flight times.

You can change the consensus by introducing more or better evidence or by proposing a simpler theory, but not by sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'la la la NOT CERTAIN PROOF.' Absolute Humian doubt is counterproductive as well as annoying.
"Statistics mean nothing to the individual." Dr. Perry Cox, Scrubs

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10383
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-09-30 10:35am

well his standard of evidence wouldn't be so bad if he applied it equally (I can't say applies it non-consistently as he's very consistent about it), then it would just be annoyingly pendantic, bad debating sure but only cause it slows everything to a crawl when both sides have prove every minor detail no matter how insignifigant.


However Watch-man does not apply his standards equally, he assumes every theory he makes is proven by default and in some cases he even outright refuses to debate some points from those theories, all the while constantly asking us to prove even the smallest and most insignigant assumptions, I'm quite sure if I said that water is wet in SW he'd ask for evidence for that too.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-09-30 11:40pm


    Lord Revan wrote:well his standard of evidence wouldn't be so bad if he applied it equally (I can't say applies it non-consistently as he's very consistent about it), then it would just be annoyingly pendantic, bad debating sure but only cause it slows everything to a crawl when both sides have prove every minor detail no matter how insignifigant.


    However Watch-man does not apply his standards equally, he assumes every theory he makes is proven by default and in some cases he even outright refuses to debate some points from those theories, all the while constantly asking us to prove even the smallest and most insignigant assumptions, I'm quite sure if I said that water is wet in SW he'd ask for evidence for that too.

      Please provide evidence for your claim that I do not provide evidence when asked to do it.

      It is totally easy.

      You only hat to refer to an event where I claimed something and refused to provide evidence when asked to do it.


Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28657
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Simon_Jester » 2015-10-01 03:02pm

He didn't say that.

He said you assume that every theory you make is proven by default. This is pretty clearly true because you always try to place the burden of proof on the other party.

He also said you outright refuse to debate certain points from your theories. Which you do.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-10-02 04:30am


    Simon_Jester wrote:He didn't say that.

    He said you assume that every theory you make is proven by default. This is pretty clearly true because you always try to place the burden of proof on the other party.

    He also said you outright refuse to debate certain points from your theories. Which you do.

      Please provide evidence.

      Show that I'm proposing theories and am assuming that they are proven by default.

      Show where I'm proposing theories and am refusing to debate them.


Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28657
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Simon_Jester » 2015-10-02 06:25am

You showed where you proposed a theory and refused to debate a point that runs counter to it. Read your own posts.

And the 'proven by default' thing? Seriously, this whole "galaxy is massively compressed with stars being 100 times closer together even though this would have all sorts of astrophysics consequences and make things crazy" is such a massive Occam's Razor violation that you wouldn't even consider it unless you'd already accepted it. It's like believing the Earth is doughnut-shaped; a rational mind cannot hold such an idea without a severe case of privileging the hypothesis.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov

WATCH-MAN
Padawan Learner
Posts: 352
Joined: 2011-04-20 01:03am

Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2015-10-02 06:48am


    Simon_Jester wrote:You showed where you proposed a theory and refused to debate a point that runs counter to it. Read your own posts.

      Does this mean you can not refer to a post in which I proposed a theory and assumed that it is proven by default?

    Simon_Jester wrote:And the 'proven by default' thing? Seriously, this whole "galaxy is massively compressed with stars being 100 times closer together even though this would have all sorts of astrophysics consequences and make things crazy" is such a massive Occam's Razor violation that you wouldn't even consider it unless you'd already accepted it. It's like believing the Earth is doughnut-shaped; a rational mind cannot hold such an idea without a severe case of privileging the hypothesis.

      Please refer to a post from me where I proposed the theory that the whole galaxy is massively compressed with stars being 100 times closer together?



Return to “Star Wars vs Star Trek”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests