Iconians vs Empire

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DarthPooky
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Iconians vs Empire

Postby DarthPooky » 2015-04-27 11:55am

Ok so i though this would be cool. The iconians as portraide in Star Trek online instead of invaiding the Alpha and beta quadrants deside to invaide the Star Wars galaxy. In this scenario the Feds klink rom allies manege to capture and use a iconian gate to get a messege to the the Star Wars galaxy warning them of the coming danger. Game play matchanics are of corse excluded from the scenario.

Personally I still think the empire would win because of the fire power and industrial advantage as well of having a properly equipped ground army. The speed of hyperdrive would also Allow them to responed quicker to Threats although the iconian gates might give the empire a bit more run for its mony by Possibly conducting ground baised Surprise Attacks on worlds whith a lesser ground force Present.

I'm Curious to hear what you guys have in thoughts about this.

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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby SilverDragonRed » 2015-04-27 12:09pm

DarthPooky wrote:Ok so i though this would be cool. The iconians as portrayed in Star Trek online instead of invading the Alpha and beta quadrants decide to invade the Star Wars galaxy. In this scenario the Feds klink rom allies manege to capture and use a iconian gate to get a message to the the Star Wars galaxy warning them of the coming danger. Game play mechanics are of course excluded from the scenario.

Personally I still think the empire would win because of the fire power and industrial advantage as well of having a properly equipped ground army. The speed of hyperdrive would also Allow them to respond quicker to Threats although the iconian gates might give the empire a bit more run for its money by Possibly conducting ground based Surprise Attacks on worlds with a lesser ground force Present.

I'm Curious to hear what you guys have in thoughts about this.
Fixed that for ya.

Now, the questions I want to ask is this:
What is the logistical situation for the Iconians?
What is the speed and range of their gates?
What do they bring to the table in terms of ground combat, or planetary bombardment?
Ah yes, the "Alpha Legion". I thought we had dismissed such claims.

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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-04-27 12:15pm

Iconian Gates appear capable of interstellar travel across as much as half a galaxy (if not more) instantaneously. They're basically Stargates in all but name, although they don't use wormholes. They come in sizes from human-doorway to big enough for spaceships larger than a Federation Galaxy class starship.

Logistical situation: Unknown (to me). They have been in hiding for millennia for unknown reasons, manipulating various alien races and what not to serve their ends. They haven't confronted anybody directly until the latest update to STO, which just came out a week or so ago.

Ground combat: Some very strong soldiers with high power beam weapons. I haven't encountered them yet in STO, so I can't comment.

The problem with this versus is that we really don't know much of anything about the Iconians and their capabilities just yet... only that they have super-tech (for ST), some serious firepower (that's hard to quantify), and have had a long history of behind-the-scenes manipulation.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-04-27 12:48pm

the Heralds are the "basic" grunts of the Iconians and they're nasty, the heralds are divided into 4 types on ground

  1. Constructs (technically not heralds but automata help together by forcefields) wield a staff/rifle hybrid (think of the Gu'ald staff weapon from stargate but with a beam instead of a bolt) and can combine into stronger version (that seems to be able only use it's fists though)
  2. Thralls, wield essentially the same weapon as the constructs but can use gateways to flank the opponent (even while fighting them)
  3. Defilers (yes that's their name) big brutish heralds that wield a stronger version of the staff weapon the weaker versions capable to shooting a cone that (in-game) can instakill any weaker opponents that it hits as well creating a shockwave that hurts like hell and pushes opponents back
  4. Harbingers last group called "harbinger of M'Tara" in game and they're essentially like fantasy wizards with alot of nasty aoe abilities and can create solar gateways (Iconian gateways that channel the power of a start to certain point)

of the Iconians themselves we've seen only 1 person so far a female called M'Tara who described as "first among equals" By the preservers and for her capabilities she can hold and insta kill people some sort of attack that may be psionic or technological we don't know, she can hover indefinetly (she's seen standing on her feet only once (assuming the one in Qu'nos was M'Tara), sadly there's very little about their durability as one has been seen taking a shot at an Iconian so far.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Ted C » 2015-04-27 04:01pm

The Iconians were beaten pretty soundly in the past of the Star Trek galaxy, despite the strategic advantage that their gates gave them. I see no reason to think that the Empire couldn't beat them as well.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-04-27 04:35pm

Ted C wrote:The Iconians were beaten pretty soundly in the past of the Star Trek galaxy, despite the strategic advantage that their gates gave them. I see no reason to think that the Empire couldn't beat them as well.

Problem there is that we don't know how the Iconians got defeated apart "it took an alliance of race to defeat them" for all we know it took turning the gateway network against the Iconians, we just don't know.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lone Browncoat » 2015-04-27 04:44pm

Ted C wrote:The Iconians were beaten pretty soundly in the past of the Star Trek galaxy, despite the strategic advantage that their gates gave them. I see no reason to think that the Empire couldn't beat them as well.


True, I don't play STO, as it is tilted towards the Bermanverse [which I consider personally to have too many errors] Picard said in the episode that introduced them to us that 'the victors write the history' and for all we know the Iconians were actually goody-goody types, or just nice people who
scared the hell out of those that didn't have their level of tech.

On the other hand, we saw in SW ep1-3 given the example of decadence on Corosant <sp?> their reliance for thousands of years on the Jedi to keep the peace, the need for a clone army, based on one model warrior, battle droids for the private sector, events in A New Hope and Return that the people of the SW galaxy, with perhaps the exception of the local criminal element [Mos Eisley], really are not that good at combat. Whereas, us, or say the people of the Trek galaxy are only less than 500 years from warlike barbarians are well practised in tearing down an advanced empire [re the Visigoths sacking Rome]. Or as John Creighton, explaining to a Sebacean, "we're at war with nobody, we mostly kick the crap out of each other." or something like that.
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Edit: query....
Has someone here already pondered the scenario of the Slaver Empire [Larry Nivens' adaptation of "The Soft Weapon" to Trek] vs the SW Empire of old Palpy?
I was done once on the old newsgroup but I don't remember the minutia.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lone Browncoat » 2015-04-27 04:57pm

That last sentence should be "It" not "I"
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-04-27 06:56pm

Ignoring STO cause 2 major problems here first the OP said "as protraid in Star Trek Online" and second and more importantly there's practically no information about the iconians in TNG or DS9 (and they (or more accuratly their technology) don't show up in TOS, VOY or ENT).

What we know about about the iconians from the TV series is that they had a large gateway network, probes that could mess with computer system (possibly by accident) and were defeated by alliance of races, there's nothing about the capabilities of the iconians.

And STO Iconians while started ok (or "bright" as the preservers call them), are now xenophobic a-holes with a hate boner towards everything and everyone and no desire to co-exist peacefully.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lone Browncoat » 2015-04-27 07:38pm

Lord Revan wrote:And STO Iconians while started ok (or "bright" as the preservers call them), are now xenophobic a-holes with a hate boner towards everything and everyone and no desire to co-exist peacefully.


Like the Covenant in Halo, towards Humans and anyone that won't comply?
Admittedly, don't know much about STO, my first encounter was that the people running it have sticks up their arses about buying this and that.....
So I got more into the Halo cutscenes mini-movies, 'cause I'm lazy :lol: and its' free.
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ST:Phoenix got around some of the quibbles of Trek, i.e. transporters use wormholes, rather than break your meat into atoms, new form of jump drive for long distance, warp for short range, though as an old guy I use the scale from the booklet that came with Star Trek Maps, JJ seems to have used that (or not) for a warp drive that's not slow but still has that dumb tunnel effect and unlike TOS, they can't scan/video/see into real space, like TOS, and the bigger E ran into debris, like Solo did in Hope.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-04-27 10:34pm

Lone Browncoat wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:And STO Iconians while started ok (or "bright" as the preservers call them), are now xenophobic a-holes with a hate boner towards everything and everyone and no desire to co-exist peacefully.


Like the Covenant in Halo, towards Humans and anyone that won't comply?
Admittedly, don't know much about STO, my first encounter was that the people running it have sticks up their arses about buying this and that.....
while as free to play game STO does have a real money store (they have get profit from somewhere after all) you don't "have" to buy anything, personally I've not used a since (euro)cent on the game, though I might in the future if I get more spare cash to use.

And the later storylines are pretty decent too, they even made the Voyager cast seem like actual people instead of stereotypes with no true personalities (the characters that is not the actors I'm sure the actors had personalities during voyager's run even if the characters they played didn't).

As for the Iconians yeah your comparison makes so sense but we have sadly seen only 1 iconian and while she's a major bitch almost the same degree as the Prophet of Truth. she's only person and we don't know how well M'Tara repesents your average iconian.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lone Browncoat » 2015-04-28 02:29am

Then what are all those packs you have to buy?
Not my cup 'o tea, based too much on the Bermanverse, which I consider to be full of errors and the only redeeming episode was "Parallels" to explain away the cock-ups of the Berman era and I'd really like to forget 'Voyager' ever existed.
I'll stick to viewing cut-scenes versions and what I can get out of my glimpses into the "Dark Mirror" universe. On the premise that not all predictions come to pass.
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:shock:
Sorry.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-04-28 03:35am

Lone Browncoat wrote:Then what are all those packs you have to buy?
have to buy? Good heavens no, can buy sure, but it isn't needed. To date only things I've gotten from the Zen store were free promotions and 2 additional character slots (I used in-game currency to get the zen for the char slots so I didn't lie about not using a cent of real money on it).

That said it's mostly irrelevant for the discussion of things here.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby DarthPooky » 2015-04-30 01:43pm

As far as the industrial output issue is concerned I would say the iconians have more than the feds klinks and roms but not that much more since the allies have won some battles and the iconians don't seem to be doing a complete blitzkrieg through the alpha and beta quadrants.

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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-04-30 02:33pm

Actually there's no indication that the Iconians are using anything but what they already had laying around. They had a pretty respectable output back in the day (*multiple* Dyson Spheres are arguably a bit more impressive than a couple of Death Stars), but there's no indication that they're actually producing new stuff unless the Heralds are new and not just dusted off/defrosted or whatever.

One of the more interesting thoughts I've seen regarding them goes that the Iconian chick is actually the last of the proper Iconian race and that she's just trying to kill everybody else off because she's crazy... something like that.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-04-30 03:33pm

Elheru Aran wrote:Actually there's no indication that the Iconians are using anything but what they already had laying around. They had a pretty respectable output back in the day (*multiple* Dyson Spheres are arguably a bit more impressive than a couple of Death Stars), but there's no indication that they're actually producing new stuff unless the Heralds are new and not just dusted off/defrosted or whatever.

One of the more interesting thoughts I've seen regarding them goes that the Iconian chick is actually the last of the proper Iconian race and that she's just trying to kill everybody else off because she's crazy... something like that.

the background they've set-up says the Heralds are native of Iconia but not Iconians(the species that is) but a closely related species and yeah there's no indication that the iconians are actually producing any new hardware.

as for T'Mare being the last Iconian well it would explain why she's so angry.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-05-01 06:51pm

oh something I noticed while playing "Blood of the Ancients" was that the Iconians were able to destroy about fourth of the combinied forces of KDF, Starfleet, Romulan Republic Navy and allied minor races (there's at least Cardassians present) in what amounts to from few hours to a day at most, though it's not specified if that's due to their firepower or just being able to attack where Alpha Quadrant powers are weak.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2015-05-04 12:57pm

One thing I noticed is that the Iconians use a frickin' Dyson Sphere to transport their fleet into the Milky Way galaxy, and in Uneasy Allies you find out they have enough ships to block out the light from the star in the center. Any way you slice it, that's a real fuckton of them.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby DarthPooky » 2015-05-04 11:44pm

One thing I noticed is that the Iconians use a frickin' Dyson Sphere to transport their fleet into the Milky Way galaxy, and in Uneasy Allies you find out they have enough ships to block out the light from the star in the center. Any way you slice it, that's a real fuckton of them


Oh ya I for got about that.

Some thing that I wanted to mention is the planet killer gun on the dreadnought (not sure if its just the one ship or that entire ship class or a variant of that ship class). as an effective weapon agents the empire judging from the visuals it looks similar to the undine planet killer in voyager which would mean its probably a chain reaction weapon which would mean that planetary shields would probably stop it.

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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-05-04 11:48pm

it also didn't destroy the planet (though said planet is probably uninhabitble now) you see the aftermath of that shot and while there's burnt spot size of a large(ish) country on the planet it's still intact.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby DarthPooky » 2015-05-05 01:23am

Wait I though the planet was destroyed. Guess I should play that episode agene.

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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Lord Revan » 2015-05-05 03:29am

DarthPooky wrote:Wait I though the planet was destroyed. Guess I should play that episode agene.

[spoiler=]assuming you mean Lae'nas III[/spoiler]

The Herald Dreadnaught main weapon beam hits creating glowing cracks on the planet surface and a big explotion at the impact site then the screen whites out, after the dust settles (metaphorically speaking) the planet has a huge burn mark where the beam hit but the planet seems otherwise unaffected for orbit, though I'd assume that it's now uninhabitble due the size of that burn mark and likely effects that would cause.

[spoiler=]while the Iconians did destroy Calbraden III we don't know how many ships were involved or how long it took (it happend off-screen), it seems the Iconians have a hate boner of the third planets in a star system :wink:[/spoiler]
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Simon_Jester » 2015-05-12 04:24pm

Well, if I were going to pick random habitable planets, most of them would be This II, That III, or The Other Thing IV, with a bias in favor of II or III.

So, could be luck. :D
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Simon_Jester » 2015-05-15 10:49pm

Another observation:

Iconian transportation technology ("gateways") basically lets them do point to point teleportation over interstellar or even intergalactic distances. It seems in the game as though for some applications, a gateway is needed on either end, but for others, the gateway can just arbitrarily send you places, like a greatly superior version of a normal Star Trek transporter.

As in, in the first episode where Picard and the Enterprise discover Iconia and its ruins, Picard uses an Iconian gateway to 'portal' onto the Enterprise under conditions where it is explicitly impossible for him to be beamed aboard. And clearly the Iconians cannot have pre-built a gateway aboard the Enterprise, since it postdates their civilization by a few hundred millenia...

While the Iconians are probably STILL greatly outclassed by the available shipboard weaponry in Star Wars, the disparity in ground force firepower is less significant... and as noted, they have multiple Dyson spheres, at least three that we know of, which strongly suggests that they have an industrial base competitive with that of the Star Wars Empire.

And because of their gateways, the Iconians may well possess the means to do the sort of things Star Trek advocates claim the Federation could do with transporters. Like teleporting a nuclear bomb aboard your ship, or teleporting an army of soldiers directly into your capital through a planetary shield.
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Re: Iconians vs Empire

Postby Elheru Aran » 2015-05-20 06:21pm

Iconian gateways also appear to be pretty much whatever size the Iconians want them to be, from ship-size to human-size. This could be highly useful to them in any number of circumstances.

It is also virtually a given that the Imperials would not be able to figure out Iconian technology for some time; the Star Trek races have been studying it for years and only understand some functions like turning things on and what not. They can turn the gateways on and set a destination, that's about it.

The Iconians also have the Solanae on their side, who may be capable of some rather nasty tricks via dimensional travel. They mind-fucked the Enterprise crew fairly well in that episode where they showed up. They might be able to do worse. Haven't seen a whole lot of them in STO yet, mind you... just the one appearance in that episode with Worf.
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