Iconians vs Empire

[Lord Revan]

Annotation:

I do not want to debate anything.

I do not want to debate if the impression I have been left with after watching the movies is right.

I do not want to debate if it is possible that the Star Wars galaxy could be so small and dense - as science fiction movies do show things that should be impossible according to our astrophysical understanding.

What I want is that you answer the two questions:

Which evidence for the morphology and dimension of the Star Wars Galaxy do we still have?

Which evidence for the morphology and dimension of the Republic or the Empire in the Star Wars Galaxy do we still have?

Here's a piece of evidence of both my points in your own words with only emphasis added because you're pig headded that you ignore even your own posts if it suits you

EDIT: this quotes in the whole post nothing is removed and I only added the emphasis.

[WATCH-MAN]

• Annotation:
  
  I do not want to debate anything.
  
  I do not want to debate if the impression I have been left with after watching the movies is right.
  
  I do not want to debate if it is possible that the Star Wars galaxy could be so small and dense - as science fiction movies do show things that should be impossible according to our astrophysical understanding.
  
  What I want is that you answer the two questions:
  
  Which evidence for the morphology and dimension of the Star Wars Galaxy do we still have?
  
  Which evidence for the morphology and dimension of the Republic or the Empire in the Star Wars Galaxy do we still have?

  Here's a piece of evidence of both my points in your own words with only emphasis added because you're pig headded that you ignore even your own posts if it suits you
  
  EDIT: this quotes in the whole post nothing is removed and I only added the emphasis.

  • And where is there a theory proposed I assumed to be proven by default?

[Lord Revan]

• Annotation:
  
  I do not want to debate anything.
  
  I do not want to debate if the impression I have been left with after watching the movies is right.
  
  I do not want to debate if it is possible that the Star Wars galaxy could be so small and dense - as science fiction movies do show things that should be impossible according to our astrophysical understanding.
  
  What I want is that you answer the two questions:
  
  Which evidence for the morphology and dimension of the Star Wars Galaxy do we still have?
  
  Which evidence for the morphology and dimension of the Republic or the Empire in the Star Wars Galaxy do we still have?

  Here's a piece of evidence of both my points in your own words with only emphasis added because you're pig headded that you ignore even your own posts if it suits you
  
  EDIT: this quotes in the whole post nothing is removed and I only added the emphasis.

  • And where is there a theory proposed I assumed to be proven by default?

it's the bloody OP on that thread you moron, no wait calling you a moron would be an insult to morons they at least have some degree of intelligence.

You assume that SW galaxy is some freakish hyper dense anomaly and tell us to prove otherwise.

That's not how it goes, same way if a person is on trial for murder he doesn't have prove he has asleep alone at his own bed, but rather it's the job of the procecution to prove that he was at the scene of the crime.

[WATCH-MAN]

• it's the bloody OP on that thread you moron, no wait calling you a moron would be an insult to morons they at least have some degree of intelligence.
  
  You assume that SW galaxy is some freakish hyper dense anomaly and tell us to prove otherwise.
  
  That's not how it goes, same way if a person is on trial for murder he doesn't have prove he has asleep alone at his own bed, but rather it's the job of the procecution to prove that he was at the scene of the crime.

  • With other words: I have not proposed a theory I assumed to be proven by default in the post you quoted.
    
    Maybe you could at least show now, where I have proposed a theory I assumed to be proven by default in the "bloody OP".
    
    Where have I proposed the theory in the "bloody OP" that the SW galaxy is some freakish hyper dense anomaly?
    
    Where have I asked you to prove that it is not?

[Lord Revan]

To switch back to subject at hand from the "watch-man ego trip hour", as of the Mission "Midnight" the Iconians have been unable to take sol system or Qu'nos (or how ever you spelled it again) even though they've tried it in case of Qu'nos both from space and ground. (the group missions "Gates of Grethor" and "brotherhood of the sword")

when we consider the massive logitical advantage the portals give the iconians this means one of three things

1. they don't have the fleet strenght to take those systems dispite the logistical advantage
2. they have the fleet numbers but they have other logistical issues that prevent them from using their full strength
3. the Iconian leadership don't commit their full strength in to the fight due to their arrogance

[EnterpriseSovereign]

What I want to know is, are we including the servitor races that the Iconians have been employing for some of their dirty work. There's only a dozen Iconians but they've been shown to be extremely difficult to kill (at least by small arms). Whether they'd be able to stand up to Imperial vehicles in combat is another matter.

[Lord Revan]

I'd suspect that at the very least the heralds are included, though probably not the other servitors

[Korgeta]

Wars: Realtime communication across the galaxy. Trek: It takes hours to get a response from Starfleet Command...in the Alpha Quadrant.

Please provide evidence for this and state from which period are you speaking?

If Starfleet Command needs hours to decide and response to an enquiry, it says nothing about the possibility of real time communication...

To be fair, in Voyager they develop the means to communicate in real time across the galaxy. The Federation has the means for fast galactic communication... what it doesn't have is the infrastructure. Sort of like how in 1850 the United States had the technology to send telegraph messages almost instantly from coast to coast... but there weren't enough physical telegraph wires to make that practical.

I don't think the Empire is actually at the same level of scientific advancements as the federation, their brilliant engineers for sure, constructing huge starships and a moon base (though all these have taken years) but tech wise the federation is arguably better with targeting and more efficient propulsion (arguably) if anything the empire's approach is quite conservative which is why I doubt that the Empire would fare any better then the federation in understanding Iconian technology.

The civilization of Star Wars has pretty clearly mastered scientific principles that let them manipulate matter and energy on scales that the 'ordinary' Star Trek powers cannot match. Also to travel faster (except for short range teleportation), to make stronger and more durable materials, and to build more powerful computers (a self-aware android is a remarkable achievement in Star Trek, but would be a perfectly mundane one-of-trillions thing in Star Wars).

Why the Iconians would probably win is because they seem to match or can rival the Empire's industry but back it with far greater technology like the gateways (with how Picard got back onto the entireprise) by using one of these then the consequences of using these for military uses would be devastating for anyone up against them.

Except for their superior transportation technology, there is little evidence of the Iconians having a higher science than is found in Star Wars. However, that transportation advantage is so large, especially when combined with the Iconians' other strengths, that it might well be decisive.

I don't know if Data would be considered mundane by SW standards, he has freakish strength and has a very good understanding of combat and leadership, you only need to look at Lore to see how that can be misused. The droid army may would had benefited from more outside the box thinking then just have battle armies and tactics that are more akin to the 18th century fighting of Europe.

Other then the odd moment like the death star, there wasn't much to say that the technology by the empire on the whole was vastly on a higher level then standard star trek like the federation. Its similar while it can be said that the empire would have the resources to make larger and more durable ships, the other side would say that the likes of voyager has weaponary from its final episode that bypassed shielding outright. Yet both elements have the means to communicate across a galactic field and still have triggers on their guns and can travel great distances. If the events of 'All good things' do happen then the federation will have warp 10 and even faster speed, or mastered transwarp and slipstream technology altogether. Voyager had a taste of slipstream and transwarp, so the federation or its rivals do have the capability to understand galactic travel, but as you rightly said infrastructure is key and the federation simply doesn't have the resources to be at the scale of the empire.

I still argue though that the two are similar in their scientific knowledge it's just the two have very different routes but neither of the two has something that is revolutionary in their understanding, so I don't think the Empire would fare any better in understanding Icondian technology. That doesn't mean the empire can't beat the Iconians (they were beaten afterall despite being able to teleport a dyson sphere from another galaxy) as we don't have a full extent of their ability to fight effectively, but I just don't see the empire being able to reverse engineer Icondian technology. Maybe in the SW comics they might have something to counter/limit the scale of the Icondian technology, based on sidious ability to 'forsee' (or was that just arrogance?) or from the sith lord himself? An advanced early warning system based on the force to counter would level the playing field.

[biostem]

I don't know if Data would be considered mundane by SW standards, he has freakish strength and has a very good understanding of combat and leadership, you only need to look at Lore to see how that can be misused. The droid army may would had benefited from more outside the box thinking then just have battle armies and tactics that are more akin to the 18th century fighting of Europe.

They're not present in the movies, but they did mention "Human Replica Droids" in the EU - they're basically what Data is, only completely passable for human. Regardless, you have to keep in mind that in Star Wars, droids are old technology - they are considered mere tools, and purposely not given very much autonomy due to either fear of them rebelling or to cultural taboo. The Trade Federation, for instance, specifically implemented the system of requiring droid control ships specifically so said droids could never turn against them.

Other then the odd moment like the death star, there wasn't much to say that the technology by the empire on the whole was vastly on a higher level then standard star trek like the federation. Its similar while it can be said that the empire would have the resources to make larger and more durable ships, the other side would say that the likes of voyager has weaponary from its final episode that bypassed shielding outright. Yet both elements have the means to communicate across a galactic field and still have triggers on their guns and can travel great distances. If the events of 'All good things' do happen then the federation will have warp 10 and even faster speed, or mastered transwarp and slipstream technology altogether. Voyager had a taste of slipstream and transwarp, so the federation or its rivals do have the capability to understand galactic travel, but as you rightly said infrastructure is key and the federation simply doesn't have the resources to be at the scale of the empire.

Let's just take a step back here for a moment - civilian cross-galactic travel is commonplace in SW - even leaving the Sol system in ST requires booking passage aboard a state-run transport. The Empire also built both Death Stars in secret - we're talking thousands or millions worth of starship material here. SW is a galaxy in which FTL travel is millennia-old. There aren't any unmapped anomalies to worry about bumping into, and they express disbelief if a planet isn't in their database. You have a setting where a single kid with no formal training can traverse the galaxy on his own, compared to one where you need a crew of highly trained personnel to cross part of one quadrant of their galaxy, and even then, they're running up against known space-wedgies or worrying that their own ship will blow them up.

I still argue though that the two are similar in their scientific knowledge it's just the two have very different routes but neither of the two has something that is revolutionary in their understanding, so I don't think the Empire would fare any better in understanding Icondian technology. That doesn't mean the empire can't beat the Iconians (they were beaten afterall despite being able to teleport a dyson sphere from another galaxy) as we don't have a full extent of their ability to fight effectively, but I just don't see the empire being able to reverse engineer Icondian technology. Maybe in the SW comics they might have something to counter/limit the scale of the Icondian technology, based on sidious ability to 'forsee' (or was that just arrogance?) or from the sith lord himself? An advanced early warning system based on the force to counter would level the playing field.

If the combined forces of the Alpha quadrant can stave off being conquered by the Iconians, then the Empire can still easily overcome their advantages via brute force. The Empire can afford to dispatch thousands of probe droids to survey even outlying systems like Hoth for Rebel activity, so setting up a wide enough sensor net to detect and quickly move in on any Iconian incursions should be relatively easy. And that's before accounting for things like the Empire's superior ground forces. Again, if the Alpha quadrant forces can stand up to the Iconians at all, then the Empire should make easy work of them.

[Korgeta]

If the combined forces of the Alpha quadrant can stave off being conquered by the Iconians, then the Empire can still easily overcome their advantages via brute force. The Empire can afford to dispatch thousands of probe droids to survey even outlying systems like Hoth for Rebel activity, so setting up a wide enough sensor net to detect and quickly move in on any Iconian incursions should be relatively easy. And that's before accounting for things like the Empire's superior ground forces. Again, if the Alpha quadrant forces can stand up to the Iconians at all, then the Empire should make easy work of them.

I wouldn't go as far as to say as easily, in your scenario of the situation your describing the empire as competent and sensible in dealing with military threats, regardless of how much spin can be made of it the loss of the death star (and the second) showcases the empire has made some very bad blunders and it wasn't even against a superpower, the rebellion was weak to begin with and the empire allowed that to become strong and destroy them. (Despite the empire's clear start) the same can be said with the Icondians, any civilisation that can teleport a dyson spehere from another galaxy and yet lose, had lost to essentially God, or were just absolute morons. Either way I would say the two are definitely not competent in winning. I do agree on the droid probes and does show how much further ahead the empire is in its communications on a galactic scale.

[Batman]

When, exactly, did the Iconians teleport a Dyson Sphere to another galaxy?

[Lord Revan]

When, exactly, did the Iconians teleport a Dyson Sphere to another galaxy?

during the intro for the Heralds the Iconians transported a Dyson Sphere from Andromeda to the Milky Way (near Iconia to be exact). This act gives rather big "oh crap" reaction to the Alpha Quadrant Powers and for the purpose of this discussion STO is valid storywise.

[Batman]

Yeah, sorry. I forgot this was STO, not canon Trek.

[Lord Revan]

Yeah, sorry. I forgot this was STO, not canon Trek.

no point in discussing Iconians based on canon Trek because we know practically nothing about them in canon (only thing certain is that they made some fancy portal based teleporters, rest is pure speculation).

[Batman]

I'm not disagreeing

[Simon_Jester]

I don't know if Data would be considered mundane by SW standards, he has freakish strength and has a very good understanding of combat and leadership, you only need to look at Lore to see how that can be misused. The droid army may would had benefited from more outside the box thinking then just have battle armies and tactics that are more akin to the 18th century fighting of Europe.

The Soong-type androids are stronger than human, but so are a lot of droid and cyborg bodies in Star Wars. They're smart, but they're not the only droids we see capable of thinking creatively and innovatively.

Star Wars deliberately limits the intelligence and cunning of its droids, but there are plenty of precedents within that setting for droids of exceptional intellect.

[Esquire]

If the combined forces of the Alpha quadrant can stave off being conquered by the Iconians, then the Empire can still easily overcome their advantages via brute force. The Empire can afford to dispatch thousands of probe droids to survey even outlying systems like Hoth for Rebel activity, so setting up a wide enough sensor net to detect and quickly move in on any Iconian incursions should be relatively easy. And that's before accounting for things like the Empire's superior ground forces. Again, if the Alpha quadrant forces can stand up to the Iconians at all, then the Empire should make easy work of them.

I wouldn't go as far as to say as easily, in your scenario of the situation your describing the empire as competent and sensible in dealing with military threats, regardless of how much spin can be made of it the loss of the death star (and the second) showcases the empire has made some very bad blunders and it wasn't even against a superpower, the rebellion was weak to begin with and the empire allowed that to become strong and destroy them. (Despite the empire's clear start) the same can be said with the Icondians, any civilisation that can teleport a dyson spehere from another galaxy and yet lose, had lost to essentially God, or were just absolute morons. Either way I would say the two are definitely not competent in winning. I do agree on the droid probes and does show how much further ahead the empire is in its communications on a galactic scale.

Tell me this - are Iconian warships ever intercepted by those of Alpha Quadrant powers? Has a defended Iconian installation or vessel ever been destroyed by an Alpha Quadrant force not depending on technobabble? Can Iconian ground troops be defeated by Starfleet Security forces?

If the answer to any of the above is yes, the Empire will have absolutely no trouble beating the Iconians into a pulp, since Imperial ships are hundreds (thousands?) of times faster and more powerful than Alpha Quadrant ones and Imperial ground forces are massively more effective than their Federation counterparts. It's really that simple; see the main site if you need proof of Imperial superiority in any of these arenas. What makes a frightening, but defeatable enemy for one setting need not be one in a different setting.

[Lord Revan]

Heralds are though but not impossible to defeat for Starfleet, Klingon or Romulan Tac Teams.

Qu'nos came under a combinied space and ground assault (the missions "Gates of Grethor" and "Brotherhood of the Sword") yet it held until the final battle of the Iconian War. Generally the Iconian ships are though enough that they would have won thru attrition had the war went on longer but not though enough that it was impossible for Alpha Quadrant powers to destroy the ships. same is true of the heralds as well.

EDIT:oh btw by heralds I mean ground forces as the Iconian fleets and Herald fleets are the same thing

[Korgeta]

If the answer to any of the above is yes, the Empire will have absolutely no trouble beating the Iconians into a pulp, since Imperial ships are hundreds (thousands?) of times faster and more powerful than Alpha Quadrant ones and Imperial ground forces are massively more effective than their Federation counterparts. It's really that simple; see the main site if you need proof of Imperial superiority in any of these arenas. What makes a frightening, but defeatable enemy for one setting need not be one in a different setting.

Why? What is written on the site is all opinionated, people can make compelling arguments and that's good but that's it, if I had the time and interest perhaps I might read it, but I am definitely uncaring when people start saying such a thing is hundreds or thousands more powerful claims etc, why do people make these claims as they blindly ignore the first death star being destroyed by four winged fighter planes? Were those x-wings from new hope so many thousands and thousands of times more powerful and faster then any science fiction ship beforehand that they have to use MANNED turrets in order to shoot at them? Or the battle of endor where the emperor's finest crack troops are hindered by teddy bears and that the shield fell apart because some guy fell for han solo in a helmet saying rebels are on the run and opened the doors to the most important facility? Did they teach that at the academy?

'Hundreds' and 'thousands' time more powerful excuses for the Empire does not hold ground when they lose a 20 year project in the most damming of circumstances and lose a second one even quicker, even the comics don't always support the empire as brilliant ground troops, in 'enemy of the empire' storm troopers struggled against spearmen and again we have endor also.

I am not going to buy the empire will crush anyone when it has made terrible errors, they clearly do not have an effective system to win a war outright let alone deal with a rebellion outright. They have made mistakes just as the Icondians, but who knows maybe the empire will be shown as more competent come the next movie, besides the empire was only 20yrs old and the republic didn't have a proper army either so there is some justification to the mistakes made, but it is foolish to start throwing in multipliers to state how far one is to the other whilst ignoring and glossing past failures of either of the two.

[biostem]

If the answer to any of the above is yes, the Empire will have absolutely no trouble beating the Iconians into a pulp, since Imperial ships are hundreds (thousands?) of times faster and more powerful than Alpha Quadrant ones and Imperial ground forces are massively more effective than their Federation counterparts. It's really that simple; see the main site if you need proof of Imperial superiority in any of these arenas. What makes a frightening, but defeatable enemy for one setting need not be one in a different setting.

Why? What is written on the site is all opinionated, people can make compelling arguments and that's good but that's it, if I had the time and interest perhaps I might read it, but I am definitely uncaring when people start saying such a thing is hundreds or thousands more powerful claims etc, why do people make these claims as they blindly ignore the first death star being destroyed by four winged fighter planes? Were those x-wings from new hope so many thousands and thousands of times more powerful and faster then any science fiction ship beforehand that they have to use MANNED turrets in order to shoot at them? Or the battle of endor where the emperor's finest crack troops are hindered by teddy bears and that the shield fell apart because some guy fell for han solo in a helmet saying rebels are on the run and opened the doors to the most important facility? Did they teach that at the academy?

'Hundreds' and 'thousands' time more powerful excuses for the Empire does not hold ground when they lose a 20 year project in the most damming of circumstances and lose a second one even quicker, even the comics don't always support the empire as brilliant ground troops, in 'enemy of the empire' storm troopers struggled against spearmen and again we have endor also.

I am not going to buy the empire will crush anyone when it has made terrible errors, they clearly do not have an effective system to win a war outright let alone deal with a rebellion outright. They have made mistakes just as the Icondians, but who knows maybe the empire will be shown as more competent come the next movie, besides the empire was only 20yrs old and the republic didn't have a proper army either so there is some justification to the mistakes made, but it is foolish to start throwing in multipliers to state how far one is to the other whilst ignoring and glossing past failures of either of the two.

Let's ignore your strawman for a moment. The Empire can and does field a groundforce consisting of armored soldiers carrying heavy weapons, combined with armored vehicles, air support, and other such support. If a Federation/Star Trek ground force, which basically consists of unarmored soldiers carrying rifles and pistols, can take out the Iconian ground troops, then the Empire can do the same, only easier. Even if we made a direct 1:1 comparison between a Storm Trooper and a Starfleet security person, the Empire is still better equipped and more prepared. Even if we said 1 Star Destroyer = 1 main-line Starfleet ship, the Empire still has more ships, so they'd win purely by superior numbers. Are you getting the picture yet?

[Batman]

Can we please get rid of this guy? He can't even properly spell Iconian.

[Esquire]

I swear we just did this - you're not secretly WATCH-MAN, are you?

Anyway, the consensus surrounding Imperial capabilities was reached through rational analysis of the existing body of evidence. We see Imperial warships casually swat asteroids into glowing dust; we see the Death Star destroy planets energentically enough to fling debris outwards at escape velocity; we see casual galactic-scale travel on the part of poor civilians. Imperial legions - unlike Starfleet - have actual armored vehicles and air support that can withstand weapons operating on the power level mentioned above. The fact that the Empire is eventally defeated by a revolution using ships and weapons on the same scale as its own does not make it any more susceptible to defeat by Alpha Quadrant powers. It's one thing to be outsmarted by people who can hurt you, it's quite another to lose to someone who you can outrun, outfight, and outnumber by several orders of magnitude - and that's using the low end estimates. The Death Star was destroyed by a starfighter, true, but a starfighter piloted by a space magician exploiting a specific weakness to deliver an Imperial-power-level warhead to the main reactor. That's not exactly an easily-replicable set of circumstances.

As if that wasn't enough, you're falling into the classic style-over-substance fallacy. It's all well and good to mock the Empire for using manned turrets, but a) we don't know precisely what the Imperial naval personnel in ANH are doing, and b) is the Federation really any better? How often do allegedly sophisticated Starfleet targeting systems miss hundred-meter long targets from a few dozen kilometers away?

And finally, why do you think it's easier to deal with a persistent rebellion than win an outright war against a foreign power? Tell me, how have the two tasks stacked up in terms of difficulty in our own history?

[Lord Revan]

I swear we just did this - you're not secretly WATCH-MAN, are you?

I dout that, WATCH-MAN was very consistent about his posts as in he pretty much never posted out of pure SW, Pure ST or SWvST.

Korgeta for all his problems on this thread has shown intrest in other things as well.

[Korgeta]

I don't think I've been causing problems, or that wasn't my intention, am ok with reading other arguments etc, it is though the vagueness of this so many times stronger argument, which I find from experience to be a very lazy statement in itself, and its not star trek vs star wars but pretty much any subject that its used in, and generally they ignore the failures as well as the accomplishments which they shouldn't.

Any side sounds great on paper but when it comes down to the crunch and things goes wrong or right then that has to be taken into consideration no more then if say a sports team had inexpicably crashed to someone 3 leagues below them.

[Simon_Jester]

What it comes down to is that the Iconians don't have the weapons technology to be much of a threat, but DO potentially have the transportation technology. It's unclear whether they have to preposition the gateways they arrive through or whether they have devices that can teleport a starship where they wish. It sure seems like the latter to me, though.

Because of this, the Iconians would be well advised not to use starships at all, and to concentrate on portalling ground troops to attack and destroy specific targets. The firepower disparity on the ground isn't nearly as big as the one in space, and the Iconians have some weapons a lot nastier than the average hand phaser.