Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2013-12-06 05:39pm

In Nemesis Data reports "aft shields down to ten percent" so Riker says "keep out bow on the Scimitar." There's also "dorsal shields at 40% or somesuch." IIRC Shinzon deliberately targets aft shields to bring them down so that the Remans could borad Enterprise.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-12-06 05:47pm

'Nemesis'. I think a goodly portion of the board population (myself decidedly included) don't want to remember that, for want of a better word, movie. Was it ever mentioned in any of the series' or one of the not 'you gotta be fucking kidding me' bad movies?
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2013-12-06 05:48pm

I seem to recall fore and aft shields were mentioned a few times, notably in Yesterday's Enterprise.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Jawawithagun » 2013-12-06 07:56pm

Is it even feasible for the Borg to keep all previous adaptations active at all times, even when they have become useless?

To give a shield/weapon a frequency you need an oscillator. To adapt it to a different one you either re-tune the oscillator (at which point you lose the adaptation to the previous frequency until you tune it to that one again) or you install a second one, which puts additional strain on your available space, power grid and control network.

So either Borg cubes fly around full of now completely useless adaptation to the weapons of centuries-dead cultures, or they will have to re-adapt to previously-used weapons.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2013-12-06 10:25pm

That's the way I look at it. If you hit a Borg cube with a large fleet attack, each ship firing at a different frequency, then either the Borg have to strain their systems to try and adapt to them all, or focus on a few frequencies easily but leave themselves vulnerable to the rest.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Captain Seafort » 2013-12-07 07:59am

Batman wrote:'Nemesis'. I think a goodly portion of the board population (myself decidedly included) don't want to remember that, for want of a better word, movie. Was it ever mentioned in any of the series' or one of the not 'you gotta be fucking kidding me' bad movies?


Elaan of Troyius and Journey to Babel both mentioned damage to specific numbered shields, and the former had Kirk ordering manoeuvres to keep the attacking ship on the starboard side to protect that shield.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2013-12-07 01:58pm

Now that I think about it, in "Sacrifice of Angels", Bashir announces the Defiant had lost aft shields, and that forward shields were at 15%. Lucky for them the Klingons showed up a few seconds later...
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2013-12-07 02:16pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:In Nemesis Data reports "aft shields down to ten percent" so Riker says "keep out bow on the Scimitar." There's also "dorsal shields at 40% or somesuch." IIRC Shinzon deliberately targets aft shields to bring them down so that the Remans could borad Enterprise.

As one of the few parts of the film worth seeing, I've watched that battle more times than I care to admit; the sequence of events was along these lines:

    First exchange, Scimitar drains Ent-E's dorsal shields so Picard rolls ship to port while firing ventral phasers.

    Romulans show up, hits from the Scimitar knock aft shields down to 40%, Riker orders bow kept on Scimitar and Aux. power to fwd shields. Geordi complies but helm doesn't as we see the Enterprise fire a volley of torpedoes while turning away.

    Scimitar blows wing off Donatra's wingman, debris hits the Enterprise's port shields but for some reason knocks the forward shields down to 10%.

    After the Enterprise finally fires Quantum torpedoes and actually inflicts damage (mainly taking out the cloaking device), Shinzon targets "shield co-ordinates" with a view to sending a boarding party. Problem was, since it was ventral shields on deck 29 that failed, the Remans had to take the long way to the bridge.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Skywalker_T-65 » 2013-12-07 08:26pm

Borgholio wrote:That's the way I look at it. If you hit a Borg cube with a large fleet attack, each ship firing at a different frequency, then either the Borg have to strain their systems to try and adapt to them all, or focus on a few frequencies easily but leave themselves vulnerable to the rest.


Leaving out frequency stuff, its as simple as calling up the Chiss and getting their Charric and Maser weapons, to supplement Turbolasers. Or if you want to get really out there, use Vong weaponry. Thus, you could have multiple types of energy weapons, added with Mass Drivers like Zann's in "Forces of Corruption" and Vong 'lava' weaponry.

This is leaving aside suicide ramming and Proton torpedoes/concussion missiles. Even with magic adaptation, SW can adapt just as well if need be I would think.

EDIT: Naturally, Vong weapons are something that the Imperial Remnant would have, as opposed to the Empire of the OT. Still a valid point though.

And I think the Ssi-Ruuvi use unique weapons too, though I could be wrong. SW isn't just turbolasers, anymore than ST is just Phasers (though, to be fair, there seems to be little other than stylistic differences between Phasers and Disruptors).
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2013-12-08 09:15am

The Ssi-Ruuvi had unique small arms, but ship mounted weapons were fairly weak laser cannons and a lot of ion cannons, since they wanted to disable rather than destroy.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby StarSword » 2014-01-04 04:00pm

Borgholio wrote:I can recall at least two instances of shield sectors in ST. First, in Star Trek 6, you see the bow shields of the Ent-A failing before the rest of the sectors do. Then in...I think it's Nemesis, you see something similar with different quadrants failing before others.

But then again, in TNG the series they usually do just have one percentage for the entire shield bubble...

Also, DS9: "Shattered Mirror" I recall the ISS Defiant and a Terran Rebel ship mention concentrating fire on the forward shields of Worf's Negh'Var, and eventually punching through them and forcing it into retreat.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2014-02-02 10:08am

StarSword wrote:
Borgholio wrote:I can recall at least two instances of shield sectors in ST. First, in Star Trek 6, you see the bow shields of the Ent-A failing before the rest of the sectors do. Then in...I think it's Nemesis, you see something similar with different quadrants failing before others.

But then again, in TNG the series they usually do just have one percentage for the entire shield bubble...

Also, DS9: "Shattered Mirror" I recall the ISS Defiant and a Terran Rebel ship mention concentrating fire on the forward shields of Worf's Negh'Var, and eventually punching through them and forcing it into retreat.

Here

The Defiant had put a hole in the forward shields (and generally shot up the Negh'Var) by the time the raider arrived to pick off the one remaining BOP that had been called in since the ship couldn't target anything flying that close. It is kinda weird that it's the forward shields that failed- the Defiant (and later the raider) spent the entire time hitting it from below, so if anything it's the ventral shields that should have collapsed first.

That battle is one of the few examples that show ST ships still shooting back despite taking heavy damage.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2014-02-18 12:52pm

As for shield areas:





Best of Both Worlds part 2 (Galaxy Class)
Shelby: Forward shields at 58%... aft shields.... checking... sensors must be down. No, aft shields have completely failed, damn it!


Redemption Part 1 (Klingon Vor'Cha class)
Gowron: Status?
Underling: Aft shields down
and a few seconds later
Data: The Bortas has lost her port shield, sir.


Redemption Part 2 (Klingon Bird of Prey)
Worf: Aft shields buckling
and a few seconds later
Worf: Aft shields are gone!


VOY: Initiations (UFP Shuttlecraft)
computer: Minor damage to aft shields


VOY: Dragon's Teeth (UFP Intrepid class)
Tuvok: Direct hit to our aft shields


VOY: Equinox Park 1 (UFP Intrepid class)
Kim: Direct hit to our port shields


VOY: Prophecy (UFP Intrepid)
Tuvok: Port shields down to 50%


TNG: Darmok (UFP Galaxy class)
Worf: Starboard shields holding at 52%


TNG: The Wounded (UFP Galaxy Class)
Picard: Increase power to the forward shields


TNG: Symbiosis (Galaxy)
Picard: Engineering, increase power to forward shields



I think it's safe to assume that nearly all Federation ships from shuttles to capital ships have more than one "shield" - fore, aft, port, starboard, and some (sov class) ventral and dorsal.

Even Enterprise (2150s) had fore and rear hull plating.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Purple » 2014-02-20 10:32am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Here

The Defiant had put a hole in the forward shields (and generally shot up the Negh'Var) by the time the raider arrived to pick off the one remaining BOP that had been called in since the ship couldn't target anything flying that close. It is kinda weird that it's the forward shields that failed- the Defiant (and later the raider) spent the entire time hitting it from below, so if anything it's the ventral shields that should have collapsed first.

That battle is one of the few examples that show ST ships still shooting back despite taking heavy damage.

Actually it could make a lot of sense if you think about it. Let's assume that each of the shields (forward, ventral etc.) has it's own generator. Something that is likely anyway given that it would be that much easier to cover an area with a directional antenna than to try and project a force field through the entire ship. ST seems to treat the shields as if they only need power to function and are drawing said power from a single source. They also seem to treat said power as some sort of limited reserve, almost as if they have a battery to empty. Why this is so I am not sure. But maybe the main site is right and there is some sort of particle component and so when the shield face fails the particles disperse. Dunno really. But they act as if that is so.

So if this is the case, what we saw could be that as the D was taking fire they would have diverted more and more power to the ventral shields eventually leaving nothing remaining for the other shield generators which eventually failed either through having no more power or the particles dispersing or what ever.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2014-02-20 12:15pm

Could be that the shields require a capacitor of sorts in the generator to provide sudden bursts of energy needed to resist impacts against the shield. If that capacitor goes dry, the shields won't be able to resist much and thus, "go down". Putting more power will probably recharge the capacitors more quickly and let the shields stay functional longer.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Prometheus Unbound » 2014-02-20 03:19pm

Borgholio wrote:Could be that the shields require a capacitor of sorts in the generator to provide sudden bursts of energy needed to resist impacts against the shield. If that capacitor goes dry, the shields won't be able to resist much and thus, "go down". Putting more power will probably recharge the capacitors more quickly and let the shields stay functional longer.


That's regenerative shielding, as far as I know. It does exist, but is either very new tech by late DS9 / Nemesis or difficult to do.



Shields do recharge over time, albeit slowly - several hours at the least, from 0. This happened in TNG's Ethics and TBOBW in the Paulson Nebula, from what I can remember off the top of my head.

The Equinox had a neat little trick of basically "turning it off and then back on again" - which obviously leaves you stupidly vulnerable in the middle of a fight, but allowed them to recharge from low amounts to nearly full in 45 seconds. It did seem a desperate move, however.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2014-02-23 10:21am

It does seem there is a precedent for routing shield power to one section at the expense of others- in "The Expanse", Duras' ship had set all of his shields forward, leaving his stern vulnerable. It didn't work out well for him :lol:

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby DarthPooky » 2014-05-01 05:01pm

one thing I found annoying about Borg adaptation is that in ground combat when the Borg adapt they just give up and try to go hand to hand instead of keep shouting with enough fire power there personal shields should go down at some point like they do in ship to ship combat thoughts.?

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2014-05-02 12:58am

Hand phasers only appear to generate enough power to (at most) knock a fully-shielded drone back a few inches once they've adapted. Probably a squad-level volume of fire vs a single drone might have an effect but the Federation troops never really demonstrate any kind of tactical competence. Being able to set a phaser to the power levels described in some texts where it could cause several hundred cubic feet of rock to explode should be able to overload the shields of any individual Borg easily...but we've never seen that level of power ever actually be applied by a hand phaser on screen.

I've always argued that every Federation ship should have a dozen or so machine guns + ammo in the armory in case they encounter a situation (like the Borg) where energy weapons are not effective. Granted using bullets on a sealed starship is probably not the best choice, but it's better than being assimilated.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2014-05-02 10:25am

Borgholio wrote:Hand phasers only appear to generate enough power to (at most) knock a fully-shielded drone back a few inches once they've adapted. Probably a squad-level volume of fire vs a single drone might have an effect but the Federation troops never really demonstrate any kind of tactical competence. Being able to set a phaser to the power levels described in some texts where it could cause several hundred cubic feet of rock to explode should be able to overload the shields of any individual Borg easily...but we've never seen that level of power ever actually be applied by a hand phaser on screen.

I've always argued that every Federation ship should have a dozen or so machine guns + ammo in the armory in case they encounter a situation (like the Borg) where energy weapons are not effective. Granted using bullets on a sealed starship is probably not the best choice, but it's better than being assimilated.


Using bullets on a sealed starship is a better idea than "max out our phasers" or "improvise grenades" or "go hand to hand." Every time I watch STFC it baffles me that it doesn't occur to Picard or Lilly to simply replicate more Tommy guns. They both saw the effectiveness on the holodeck, and the computer clearly knows how to make a working one.

Incidentally, in STFC when Picard first meets Lilly on the E-E and he retrieves his phaser he says it was on maximum setting. Then again, he also says if she'd fired it would have vaporised him and not much else, so I think we can use that as evidence against that "vaporise hundred cubic feet of rock" trekkie bullshit.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2014-05-02 10:35am

"vaporise hundred cubic feet of rock" trekkie bullshit.


That actually comes from the official TNG Technical Manual...so it's seen as the Bible to many trekkies. Sadly, many of the numbers described in the book are not validated or are even contradicted on screen many times. But since it's in writing, it MUST be accurate...

Regarding weapons, the in-universe explanation as to why phasers have frequencies is because they need to match frequencies with the firing ship's shields so they can pass through and not be reflected back. Hand-held weapons...don't have that limitation. So why hand phasers and rifles aren't multi-frequency (and therefore harder to adapt to) is beyond me. It IS pretty sad when a squad of modern Earth infantry would be able to mow down Borg drones like it was target practice, while Fed troops would be running for their lives. A squad of Stormtroopers would work very nicely as well, unless the Borg develop character shields. :-P
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2014-05-02 02:44pm

Same said Tech Manual of course explicitly states that the vast majority of the damage is NDF, not brute force, but they somehow forget to include that. :D
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2014-05-09 10:56am

Regarding weapons, the in-universe explanation as to why phasers have frequencies is because they need to match frequencies with the firing ship's shields so they can pass through and not be reflected back.

Though that explanation falls apart when you look at Generations, where the E-D gets raped by a BOP. Since the Klingon ship must have its shields set to the same freq. as the Federation one in order for their weapons to pass through both, it would follow that any return fire would do exactly the same.

And don't get me started on how the Klingon gunnery was so poor that 2/3 of the shots fired actually missed the target completely :lol:
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Captain Seafort » 2014-05-09 02:09pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Though that explanation falls apart when you look at Generations, where the E-D gets raped by a BOP. Since the Klingon ship must have its shields set to the same freq. as the Federation one in order for their weapons to pass through both, it would follow that any return fire would do exactly the same.


Easy solution to that - only match frequencies for the actual firing. Unless you're hit at the moment you fire you should be safe.

The counter, of course, would have been to keep the BoP under constant fire, but this is one shot Will we're talking about.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2014-05-11 11:14am

Captain Seafort wrote:
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Though that explanation falls apart when you look at Generations, where the E-D gets raped by a BOP. Since the Klingon ship must have its shields set to the same freq. as the Federation one in order for their weapons to pass through both, it would follow that any return fire would do exactly the same.


Easy solution to that - only match frequencies for the actual firing. Unless you're hit at the moment you fire you should be safe.

The counter, of course, would have been to keep the BoP under constant fire, but this is one shot Will we're talking about.

Which you'd think he'd have considered doing anyway- rotate shield modulation and firing photon torpedoes. And given that Geordi would have to be actually looking at a console with the shield freq, the bugged visor would be useless to the Duras Sisters if they're being hammered with weapons fire :lol:
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Your claim of using a scientific equation is laughable when all you have done is butcher science to the point it makes 'The Core' look like a fucking documentary. Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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