Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

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Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Generalissimo » 2013-11-13 05:56pm

What is the Imperial response if Borg adaptation works exactly as 100% advertised?
(Once any weapon is used against Borg now it's no longer effective)
Not intended as yet another debate *if* the Borg can adapt facing Imperial weaponry.
Looking for Empire's tactics and strategy facing effective adaptation.

Assume that a Cube shows up every few months in various Imperial space.
(Borg yields do not change)

Bonus Round: Borg's apparent weakness to kinetic attacks will remain.

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-11-13 06:15pm

If kinetic weapons still work, sucks to be the Borg? The EU has missile weapons and massdrivers aplenty, the nature of turbolasers and ion cannon is, to my knowledge, still under debate so they might still at least partially qualify as kinetic weapons, so in the Bonus Round the Borg get eaten.
Given Borg yields are hard-pressed to hurt anything above the Corellian Corvette level (if that) Wars simply goes to either writing off ships and colonies that aren't worth the effort of keeping or just amp up their shielding. And frankly, a Cube every few months killing a ship or three is probably considerably less than they routinely lose to navigational hazards, equipment malfunction, or piracy.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Lord Revan » 2013-11-13 06:16pm

As seen in First Contact borg adaption isn't an "magic immunity" shield but it becomes more effective to certain weapons (aka the ones it's adapted to), phasers and photon torpedos still work they're just weaker if we assume that weapon effectiveness is reduced for example by 90% compared to unadapted shields, if the Empire figures this out they'd probably send more or bigger ships against the borg, this is however solution assumes we're talking about borg shields as definied by dialoge in the canon trek.

If we go by borg shields as definied by fanatic trekkies, there's no solution as it's "I win" magical shield that stops everything no matter what and there's no way around it.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-11-13 06:28pm

Funnily, that's exactly the definition I was using for the second half of my post, and no, it's not an automatic 'I win'. Being invulnerable (and in all fairness to Generalissimo, he 'did' specify Borg adaption 'as advertized', NOT 'as actually observed') doesn't change a thing about the Borg simply not having the firepower to take on the Galactic Empire. They can't do beans to actual warships above the corvette level (if that), there's a goodly number of civilian ships that can likely ignore them, the best they can hope for is to be just ineffective enough that the losses (if any) they inflict are light enough that the Empire doesn't seriously think about how to get rid of them.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Generalissimo » 2013-11-13 06:58pm

Batman wrote:If kinetic weapons still work, sucks to be the Borg? The EU has missile weapons and massdrivers aplenty, the nature of turbolasers and ion cannon is, to my knowledge, still under debate so they might still at least partially qualify as kinetic weapons, so in the Bonus Round the Borg get eaten.
Missiles are good but we've seen the Borg adapt facing explosions.
Imperials will have to realize missiles' impact as being the actual effective part of the attack.
Massdrivers, of course, will be great in the bonus round.

Lord Revan wrote:If we go by borg shields as definied by fanatic trekkies, there's no solution as it's "I win" magical shield that stops everything no matter what and there's no way around it.
Even using extreme adaptation interpretations you can do things like "change weapon frequencies" and other technobabble stuff.
With the incredible diversity of firepower in the galaxy finding different weapons to use shouldn't be a problem.
Just a question of how flexible and/or adaptable Imperial doctrines/strategy/tactics can be.

Batman wrote:(and in all fairness to Generalissimo, he 'did' specify Borg adaption 'as advertized', NOT 'as actually observed')
You noticed my little caveat earlier then I had intended.
Was hoping for a more dramatic reveal much later.
Darn your basic reading comprehension!

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-11-13 07:03pm

I am the World's Greatest Detective you know.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Connor MacLeod » 2013-11-13 09:02pm

If Borg adaption worked as literally claimed in vs debates, the Borg should have been rendered nigh invulnerable ages ago because you think that decades or centuries of conquest and assimilation would have enabled them to figure out and pre-empt most weapons technologies used in the federation (Heck if you can figure out a way to block certain kinds of charged or neutrla particle beams you could probably block most of them even if they had technobabble effects.)

That people can defeat them at all implies there are in fact limitations to the defenses capabilities, its just people nitpick and argue over the exact nature and scope of those 'limits'.

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby WATCH-MAN » 2013-11-14 02:16am

Let's assume that the borg shield works as "advertised". That means that not every frighter could destroy a borg ship with his fog lamp [sarcasm]. This means that the Borg should get the opportunity to assimilate people from the Star Wars galaxy. With that the Borg would assimilate the knowledge of the Star Wars technology.

What now?

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2013-11-14 09:38am

"IF" it worked as advertised, the SW galaxy would be all Borg eventually.

As far as adapting shields, I was always puzzled by a technical aspect of it. One common way the Borg adapted was to change the frequency of their shields to match the frequency of incoming weapons fire. That's fine, and in theory it should work great...but can a ship's shields be set to multiple frequencies at once? I'd imagine that you can set individual shield generators to different frequencies, but then an attacking ship would only really need to overpower a single generator instead of the entire grid. So that right there is a limit to how much the Borg can adapt. If they had (and I'm pulling this number out of my ass), 25 shield generators for the entire ship, and each generator was adapted to a specific frequency, then you could attack with only 26 ships...and at least one of them could do a ton of damage to a cube...like Enterprise-D did when they encountered the Borg for the first time. Phasers ripped right through them before they could adapt.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby RogueIce » 2013-11-14 10:41pm

Generalissimo wrote:Bonus Round: Borg's apparent weakness to kinetic attacks will remain.

Weld a bunch of armor plate onto, say, GR-75 medium transports and set them on ramming speed. For extra punch, load 'em up with explosives and detonate. Borg Cubes don't seem that structurally sound and I'm pretty sure the Empire can trade unmanned cargo ships for Cubes all day long.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2013-11-14 11:05pm

Star Trek has mentioned rotating shield frequencies as a means to counter Borg attacks and the Borg seem to use it as well. The E-D used this in BOBW to throw off their tractor beam for a bit.
BOBW also has Shelby ordering data to mess around with phaser frequencies rapidly which eventually causes the Borg tractor beam to be taken out and they go into the tangent of higher EM bands being better vs. the Borg.

Even if the Borg magically assimilate someone from the Star Wars galaxy - This wont help them at all because they have access to none of the resources to duplicate Star Wars technology or the industry. At best, assimilating someone from the Star Wars galaxy MIGHT teach them the principles and what buttons to push.

Should the Borg start trying to assimilate people - The Star Wars universe is swarming with the ability to make droids so that even a child can do it. Combat droids could be made in numbers that drown the Borg simply in bodies let alone the droids being able to do some serious damage. A shielded Destroyer Droid is going to be a hilarious thing to watch mowing down Borg as they slowly lurch down a corridor. If ranged weapons dont work, just equip the droids with melee weapons and have them cutting the Borg up like Worf did.

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2013-11-14 11:40pm

just equip the droids with melee weapons


Combat droids with lightsabers. Borg wouldn't stand a chance.

Or if sabers are too rare, equip them with vibro-blades. We never see it in the movies, but they're supposed to be able to cut through stuff almost as easily as a lightsaber.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby biostem » 2013-11-15 08:55pm

The thing is, (and which has been pointed out in other discussions), that SW weapons and shields do not appear to use "frequencies" or rely on them in the same sense of ST stuff... so if the Borg rely on this for adaptation, why would it help even if it did work "as advertised"? Similarly, does Starfleet maintain some sort of database about what frequencies the Borg have already adapted to already, since we never see an initial encounter on separate dates having the Borg already be adapted to what the ST ship is currently using - it's like the Borg forget what they're previously adapted to after a period of time. I can't imagine that all ST ships manage to stick to using frequencies the Borg haven't yet adapted to at all times, and update their weapon settings even while all the way in the Delta quadrant...

I'd imagine that SW forces, if encountering Borg w/ perfect adaptation abilities, would simply rely on their hyperspace advantage and just deny them "stock" to re-up their drone count. Kinetic weapons or automated kamikaze runs would be fallback tactics. If force users are available, I wonder if individual drones would qualify as "weak minded"...

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-11-15 09:06pm

I assume that by 'as advertised' the OP means 'They'll adapt to anything AND be immune to it once they did' (and Generalissimo has made it pretty clear that he is perfectly aware that this is not what we see in the shows).
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby biostem » 2013-11-15 09:13pm

Batman wrote:I assume that by 'as advertised' the OP means 'They'll adapt to anything AND be immune to it once they did' (and Generalissimo has made it pretty clear that he is perfectly aware that this is not what we see in the shows).



Ok, so if that's the case, does that mean they'll adapt to being slammed into by ships much larger than their largest cubes? I mean, are we taking this to the extreme where even a Death Star ramming a cube at near relativistic speeds would cause the cube to harmlessly bounce off of it, or that it'd completely shrug off a DS main gun blast?

I also wonder if hyperspace tech could be weaponized insomuch as imagine a device which forces a vessel into hyperspace, but provides no means of leaving it. Or a device which forces a vessel into hyperspace, then intentionally into some enormous gravity well like the Maw.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Generalissimo » 2013-11-15 09:16pm

Batman wrote:I assume that by 'as advertised' the OP means 'They'll adapt to anything AND be immune to it once they did' (and Generalissimo has made it pretty clear that he is perfectly aware that this is not what we see in the shows).
Batman is correct, that is the scenario here.
Addressing the *alleged* "silver bullet" of a certain debate faction.

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-11-15 09:29pm

*re Biostem's last post*
That's actually a pretty interesting approach. Since hyperdrives can be internally mounted on ships the size of WW2 fighters putting them on missiles should be pretty trivial, and regardless of them being able to ignore the physical impact of the missile, parts (quite possibly the majority of) your Cube disappearing into hyperspace can't be good for structural integrity.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby biostem » 2013-11-15 09:36pm

Batman wrote:*re Biostem's last post*
That's actually a pretty interesting approach. Since hyperdrives can be internally mounted on ships the size of WW2 fighters putting them on missiles should be pretty trivial, and regardless of them being able to ignore the physical impact of the missile, parts (quite possibly the majority of) your Cube disappearing into hyperspace can't be good for structural integrity.


If you consider the thickness of any section of the hyperspace unit that Obi-wan's Jedi fighter had to connect to in AotC, or the size of the unit in TPM, they can definitely be mounted in something relatively small.

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-11-15 09:42pm

A-Wing has an internal hyperdrive. Nuff said.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Connor MacLeod » 2013-11-19 04:53pm

Borg adaption working 'as advertised' from the trekkie POV was never about explaining the mechanism in an interesting or internally self-consistnet way (at least for the majority of people who advocated it. Some DID try, at least). It was about generating an 'I win' condition for the Borg in vs debates traditionally and you at most got superficial attempts to make connections (basically 'it made it nigh impossible for the Federation to combat the Borg, therefore it applies to everyone else, cuz random excuse XYZ') 'as Advertised' by the side opposing the borg was usually the opposite - 'create loophole in adaption to exploit defence mercilessly'. In fact thats part of what the whole KE argument is - its basically turning the 'logic' of adaption upon itself to point out the absurdity it presented (EG ther was nothing really internally consistent we could make predictions off of, it was basically just the comic book version of 'Superhero having convenient deus ex machina for given situation.'

I mean if we operated on the idea that 'adaption' was, based on the visuals some sort of reactive pinpoint-defense screen (say an enemy weapon tripped some sort of 'sensor tripwire' surrounding the borg, activating the defense.) the first shot might do harm, but the sensors would register the hit and know what sort of weapon, so they could 'adapt' to better stop it next time (activate faster, use a specific kind of shield better suited to that particular form of attack, ramp up the shield output or go for a smaller but more concentrated field effect, etc.) That would give us, roughly speaking, our mechanism.

The thing is, we dont have any idea about the parameters of its operation, particularily limitations. It can clearly 'remember' attacks (block repeated phaser hits) but how does the memory work? Can it remember more than one attack simultaneously? Can it block multiple attacks hitting the same point? can it juggle multiple parameters (EG could it handle parameter 'faster beam/different particle' along with 'higher energy output' simultaneously?) How long does this 'memory' last? Can it be preloaded (doesn't seem likely, but who knows - the limitations coudl be due to the borg themselves given how they act in Trek and how they designed it, rather than inherent limits of the technology itself.) How long can the shields remain active (could a sustained beam 'outlast' the shield, or overwhelm it?) We know from Enterprise that you can brute force the shields at least with raw power, but is it context -eg that given amount of power in that period of time, or is it absolute - accumulate that quantity of energy and the shield is overhwlmed regardless of other parameters?)

The interesting thing above about the theory I outline above is that it could, potentially, stop certain kinds of KE attacks (like bullets) but it would not necesarily be unbeatable depending on the exact limitations (it might be able to block energy beams or bullets, but not both at the same time. Or it may not be able to guard against multiple angles simultaneously or against 'enveloping' attacks like flamethrowers or poison gas.) Or maybe blocking bullets is more energy intensive than blocking beams due to differences in momentum as oppposed to energy.) You could have any number of limitations built into the defense that would be exploitable and still wouldnt contradict what happens with the federation (because the Feds are not, strictly speaking, all that militant.)

The fun thing is this might actually be more worthwhile as a discussion topic, but it would be pretty useless for vs debating (because there's too many loopholes for an 'I win' type to exploit on either side.)

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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2013-12-06 12:13pm

Interesting idea about shield coverage since we know that in ST it's perfectly possible to take out shields in one area without draining the entire grid (though some Borg attacks are designed to do exactly that). Given the shape of Borg ships we have to assume that shield coverage is pretty much uniform, especially compared to other ST races. This depends also on whether the shields are bubble or conformal (in the case of the sphere it's obviously both).

It does raise the question of SW shields and whether they are of a similar nature and if some zones are weaker than others. Off the top of my head I know the Executor had dedicated bridge shields but I'm not so sure about smaller vessels.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2013-12-06 01:47pm

SW shields do have "sectors" which overlap to provide uniform coverage. It's most obvious on the Executor of course, but even the Millenium Falcon had multiple shield areas that overlapped to provide protection for the entire ship.

Bubble shields in ST, depending on which dialogue you use, have sectors too...they're just projected out away from the ship.
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-12-06 05:26pm

Actually Front/rear/dorsal/ventral and so on shields failing is pretty much the norm for Wars from the word 'go' (rear deflectors in ANH) but outside EU material I don't recall that ever happening in Trek, at least not to Starfleet ships. Mind you, I'm working from memory here and we know from 'Insurrection' that there can be gaps between shield segments, but generally it seems to be 'shields are down to X percent' with no mention of 'rear shields are holding at 92%, starboard are completely down, bow are at 18%' and so on outside the computer games (the literary EU may have done so too but I read little to nothing of it).
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Borgholio » 2013-12-06 05:32pm

I can recall at least two instances of shield sectors in ST. First, in Star Trek 6, you see the bow shields of the Ent-A failing before the rest of the sectors do. Then in...I think it's Nemesis, you see something similar with different quadrants failing before others.

But then again, in TNG the series they usually do just have one percentage for the entire shield bubble...
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Re: Imperial counters if Borg adaptation works

Postby Batman » 2013-12-06 05:37pm

I can recall several displays showing what looked like local shield failure/imminent local shield failure, but I don't think anybody ever said anything to that effect.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'


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