Transwarp Beaming

[Generalissimo]

As we've seen transwarp beaming in both of the newer Star Trek movies. . .
It's apparently not a technology of the hour somehow used but once.
How does Federation rapid movement between planets with apparently decent accuracy with a range of Earth to Qo'noS effect our debate?

[The Romulan Republic]

It could be useful for beaming secret agents and explosives into enemy territory without getting close, but I don't know if it could penetrate armour and jamming since I think that similar things could block it in Abrams' first Star Trek film. So Star Wars forces might be able to block it if they have the right equipment or material in place.

[Generalissimo]

It could be useful for beaming secret agents and explosives into enemy territory without getting close, but I don't know if it could penetrate armour and jamming since I think that similar things could block it in Abrams' first Star Trek film. So Star Wars forces might be able to block it if they have the right equipment or material in place.

Fair enough.
Been so long since the Federation had anything close to a speed advantage I don't know exactly what to make of it.
Solid range, speed near instantaneous, able to use on warping ships.
It's not, of course, a magical silver bullet for the Federation.
Forget jamming because as usual shields ought be a no sell.

Offensively the Imperials can't possibly have sufficient garrisons on all their planets without shields.
Better yet strategic withdrawals are streamlined.
Any time walkers are bearing down it's now time for beaming off planet.

Defensively it could be used to shuffle around people in a massive shell game.
Good for a Maquis-esque group to remain mobile.

[The Romulan Republic]

It could also be used to beam super weapons into enemy territory. A smaller scale version would be beaming a bomb into a building. What Kahn did only scratched the surface of what terrorists could do with this technology.

But the Empire would probably capture the technology and begin using it themselves.

Edit: as a result, militaries would become a lot more mobile and unexpected attacks could happen anywhere without defences that can block transporters.

[Lord Revan]

well the main problem is that the Transwarp beaming is fairly new technology in the post-reboot Trek and we don't know if it existed in the pre-reboot Trek, but either way we know next to nothing about the limitations of the technology.

for example it could need an active(as in turned on) tranporter or communication system on target, we don't know.

until we know more what the limits and strenghts of the technology are we should, err on the side of caution here.

[Ted C]

Forget jamming because as usual shields ought be a no sell.

Jamming is relevant because the drilling beam from the 2009 film effectively shut down transport in an entire star system. If a similar level of interference can be produced by the Empire, the transporter becomes pretty useless.

[The Romulan Republic]

Didn't Kirk and Spock beam aboard Nero's ship while the drill was on though? I can't remember.

Maybe transwarp beaming can't be jammed like standard beaming.

[Ted C]

Didn't Kirk and Spock beam aboard Nero's ship while the drill was on though? I can't remember.

Maybe transwarp beaming can't be jammed like standard beaming.

Kirk and Spock beamed over before the drill was started.

[Gaidin]

well the main problem is that the Transwarp beaming is fairly new technology in the post-reboot Trek and we don't know if it existed in the pre-reboot Trek, but either way we know next to nothing about the limitations of the technology.

According to Spock it was invented by Scotty, pre-reboot. He just sped it along so he could get them(read: Kirk) back to the Enterprise. YMMV on that point though.

[avatarxprime]

I would go with Scotty having developed it and run with it. In the novelization for the first movie they have Scotty-Prime and Spock-Prime discuss the formula with Scotty finally figuring it out.

As to its usefulness, the novelization for Into Darkness states that it was a much more complicated process to reach Qo'noS and that it's apparently a matter of power. The more power you can pump (safely) into the transporter the farther you can go. A "normal" transport cycle is likely similar to what Scotty did in the movie, range in the neighborhood of the distance between two star systems.

[Simon_Jester]

well the main problem is that the Transwarp beaming is fairly new technology in the post-reboot Trek and we don't know if it existed in the pre-reboot Trek, but either way we know next to nothing about the limitations of the technology.

It's pretty strongly impliable that it doesn't exist, or at least didn't exist as of ~2400 AD (the end of the TNG/VOY/DS9 era). LOTS of plotlines in Trek revolve around Enterprise needing to physically move cargo or people from one planet to another, in ways that would be easily resolved by "transwarp beaming."

On the other hand, it is clearly implied in various TOS episodes (I haven't watched much post-1980 Trek TV) that very advanced aliens have the technology to magically make things appear or disappear aboard the Enterprise, and pulling tricks like randomly swiping someone's lungs from a light year away or whatever.

But the Federation is pretty open about not having or understanding this technology. It's possible that it was something that Scotty thought of in the TNG era and never saw distribution or mass production; that's about the only way I can think of to rationalize Spock being able to introduce the technology to Montgomery "I don't know, maybe he's the guy who invented the stuff" Scott.

[Havok]

So you guys missed that entire plot element of the first movie where Old Spock gives Scotty HIS OWN EQUATION on trans warp beaming? It obviously existed in Old Trek and therefore was made irrelevant by something. That could be why bad guys always need codes to get into Federation space, like to bypass dampeners or xyz technobable that prevent beaming a bomb of doom into Starfleet HQ.

Also, Scotty was already close to getting it to work (Archer's dog) without the final info Old Spock gave him. As it stands, it seems like new tech that just hasn't been caught up with yet.

[Ted C]

So you guys missed that entire plot element of the first movie where Old Spock gives Scotty HIS OWN EQUATION on trans warp beaming? It obviously existed in Old Trek and therefore was made irrelevant by something. That could be why bad guys always need codes to get into Federation space, like to bypass dampeners or xyz technobable that prevent beaming a bomb of doom into Starfleet HQ.

Actually, the implication was that Scotty invented the equation late in Spock's life, possibly after being rescued from a transporter buffer in "Relics" and being turned loose in a galaxy with more advanced technology for him to play with.

[Havok]

It completely defies belief that Scotty would simply abandon the most tactically important theory, probably in the AQ, when he was on the verge of completing and perfecting it for some 30 odd years, because... of no reason. Or that no one else could come up with the solution for what... 80 plus year until Scott was found on the Dyson sphere, given how close he was, while he was in the academy.

On top of that it was obviously something Starfleet was able to counter immediately or else why wouldn't Khan just beam to where ever he needed to be to free his people, the big giant evil ship or whatever instead of all the way to Kronos.

Also the reason he figured out the formula in the prime time line had nothing to do with advanced tech, but just him coming at the equation from a different perspective, so I don't think the time change to TNG would have had anything to do with it if it even took that long, which I don't agree it did.

[Admiral Mercury]

Transwarp beaming, easy black hole creation, high powered explosives the size of small jewelry, portable devices capable of large scale geoengineering... With each new Star Trek movie the warsie claim of victory becomes more and more of a joke. By the time Star Trek XIV is released it will be a wonder how anyone thought Wars could win at all.

[Lord Revan]

the problem is that we don't know next to nothing about those devices (though the prequel comic suggest that Red Matter isn't exactly easy to get), until we know more about these devices I'm not gonna say that ST wins without an effort.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Plus I don't think stopping one volcanic eruption constitutes "large scale geoengineering." It's impressive, certainly but not on the scale your irritating little mind fervently wishes it was.

The jewllry sized explosive is also hardly revolutionary. They've had antimatter weapons for a century or more as of STID and that can easily create explosions in the range we saw whilst still being that small.

See, if you really wanted to bring up something from the new Trek films that would be of use, you should have mentioned the much faster warp speeds and the fact that they have started using phasers as point defence rather than relying purely on shields.

[WATCH-MAN]

But the Empire would probably capture the technology and begin using it themselves.

Why?

Why is it probably that the Empire would capture the technology?

What are your reasons for such a statement?

[NecronLord]

But the Empire would probably capture the technology and begin using it themselves.

Why?

Why is it probably that the Empire would capture the technology?

What are your reasons for such a statement?

I've got to agree; as far as we know from Into Darkness, Section 31/Admiral Marcus had classified the Transwarp Beaming technology; there is no reason to think that the new-Trek federation is stupid enough to allow serious tactical assets to be taken from its secret service, nor any sign that Galactic Empire military intelligence is particularly good. We see in Into Darkness that it's a physical module, no doubt they're not above slapping a hunk of C4 to the side and blowing it up if stormtroopers are cutting through the door.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Empire's intelligence seems pretty good in the films. They found out that Leia's ship had the Death Star's plans and tracked it down. They quickly tracked down Obi-wan and company in Mos Eisely. They were able to track the Falcon to the Rebel base in A New Hope. They were able to locate the Rebel base on Hoth. They were able to track down the Falcon in Empire Strikes Back (though they did hire bounty hunters to do it). And they knew the Rebels were going to attack at Endor.

[Admiral Mercury]

The Empire's intelligence seems pretty good in the films. They found out that Leia's ship had the Death Star's plans and tracked it down. They quickly tracked down Obi-wan and company in Mos Eisely. They were able to track the Falcon to the Rebel base in A New Hope. They were able to locate the Rebel base on Hoth. They were able to track down the Falcon in Empire Strikes Back (though they did hire bounty hunters to do it). And they knew the Rebels were going to attack at Endor.

Imperial Intelligence seems pretty awful if you go by the films. In A New Hope they were unable to prevent the Death Star plans from being stolen, they were unable to locate the rebel bases on either Dantooine or Yavin IV, they allowed a small group of untrained civilians to wonder around their most important vessel...

In TESB they seem even worse. Imperial Intel apparently has no moles whatsoever in the Rebel Alliance, requiring the probing of thousands of planets just on the off chance that they'll stumble on the rebel base. They repeatedly could not find the Millennium Falcon even when it was ATTACHED TO A STAR DESTROYER. They needed bounty hunters to help them. Imperial Intel was unaware of Lando's decision to help the rebels escape. Sure, that was obviously a last minute operation on his part, but it clearly required some planning due to its coordination. And finally, the Empire was completely unaware of where the rebels had regrouped after they left Hoth.

In Jedi things get a little bit better for them. They know where the rebels are amassing their forces and have lured them into a trap, but then they royally screw up with regards to the rebels on Endor. The Imperials didn't even know that the Tyderium had the rebels in it until after Vader told them. Not to mention completely underestimating the power of the Ewoks. Did they not do a proper intelligence assessment of Endor before they chose it as the location for the DS2?

Yeeeeeah, not exactly confident in the Empire's ability to infiltrate highly secretive organizations like Section 31 or Starfleet Intelligence and achieve really anything.

[NecronLord]

The Empire's intelligence seems pretty good in the films. They found out that Leia's ship had the Death Star's plans and tracked it down. They quickly tracked down Obi-wan and company in Mos Eisely. They were able to track the Falcon to the Rebel base in A New Hope. They were able to locate the Rebel base on Hoth. They were able to track down the Falcon in Empire Strikes Back (though they did hire bounty hunters to do it). And they knew the Rebels were going to attack at Endor.

Viewed another way, these operations are proof of their failures. The kind of people who can get strategic/tactical assets away from enemy agents would have had someone running liason on the Devastator ("You there, tractor that pod!") to stop the plans escaping again. In actuality the plans did escape again, thanks to one aged jedi (when you have Darth Vader on call!) and a farm boy. A sensible agent would have just had the ISDs hit the Falcon with turbolasers and all of the fighters instead of letting it 'outrun those imperial slugs.' They never would have let Obi Wan reach a ripe old age after he attacked their supreme military executor and cut all his limbs off and then went to hide changing only his first name next to the supreme military executor's family, as one would assume "find the Jedi, particularly the ones who attacked the Emperor and Lord Vader" as among their jobs.

The tracking devices and the rebel base were not intelligence - there is actually an intelligence officer on the death star council, Yularen, but it's Vader who comes up with the tracking device - and the gambit at Endor destroyed the polity they served because they were thick enough to let the Emperor actually go in person (Naturally he might have done that himself; but then it can't be credited to them).

[StarSword]

Imperial Intelligence seems pretty awful if you go by the films. In A New Hope they were unable to prevent the Death Star plans from being stolen,

Unfortunately, the guy who did the stealing has plot armor a personal deflector shield and was a latent Force-sensitive. That tends to tip the odds.

they were unable to locate the rebel bases on either Dantooine or Yavin IV,

Bit of a scale issue here. There are, at a bare minimum, tens of thousands of inhabited planets in the GFFA's known space alone (the number ranges from there to upwards of several million), never mind the Unknown Regions. Even the Empire doesn't have the ships to be everywhere at once, and Dantooine and Yavin are sparsely populated systems with no real value to the Empire, so I can easily see them falling through the cracks.

they allowed a small group of untrained civilians to wonder around their most important vessel...

Ok, clarify for me: which scene are you talking about, exactly?

In TESB they seem even worse. Imperial Intel apparently has no moles whatsoever in the Rebel Alliance, requiring the probing of thousands of planets just on the off chance that they'll stumble on the rebel base.

Or, Rebel counterintelligence is good enough to keep their operations compartmentalized so that only people with clearance are allowed to learn where the main base is. I don't know if you ever played D&D but there's a thing called an opposed roll: one guy rolls and applies his bonuses, the other guy rolls and applies his bonuses, and the guy with the highest total wins. Imps roll to penetrate Rebels, Rebels roll to oppose, Rebels score higher, penetration fails. (This is a metaphor, obviously.)

They repeatedly could not find the Millennium Falcon even when it was ATTACHED TO A STAR DESTROYER. They needed bounty hunters to help them.

No argument here. I would've thought, if nothing else, the Imps' TIE patrols (surely they keep a squadron or so on sentry duty) would've spotted them with the Mark I Eyeball. However, this isn't a failure of Imperial Intelligence. It's a failure of the Avenger's sensor techs.

Imperial Intel was unaware of Lando's decision to help the rebels escape. Sure, that was obviously a last minute operation on his part, but it clearly required some planning due to its coordination.

You're failing to factor in Lando's people knowing him and Cloud City's systems better than the Imps do, and being more loyal to their boss than to the Galactic Empire. And you're right: the Imps cannot be held responsible for something Lando himself didn't know he'd do until probably less than half an hour before it happened. All Lando had to do was send an encrypted message to Lobot to get a squad of his security guys to the route the Imps were taking. The Imps would have to intercept the message and crack the encryption to even know about the plan. Despite what Hollywood says, breaking even a modern-day computer-generated encryption is not easy (I shudder to think of the code strength Star Wars computer technology would logically be capable of), and the Imps would be up against a Lando-imposed deadline they wouldn't even know was in place until they decrypted the message.

And finally, the Empire was completely unaware of where the rebels had regrouped after they left Hoth.

Sensors can only detect so far. Lucas' constant tweaks to the films confuse this issue but in the original cut the Rebels had hidden a few thousand light-years above the plane of the freaking galaxy. Leaving the galaxy, whether vertically or horizontally, is repeatedly noted to be highly unusual. And quite apart from that, if they failed to insert agents before the battle, they're most certainly not going to be able to insert them when the Rebels are doing what is colloquially known as Getting the Fuck Out.

The rest of it I agree makes the Imps look like idiots.

They never would have let Obi Wan reach a ripe old age after he attacked their supreme military executor and cut all his limbs off and then went to hide changing only his first name next to the supreme military executor's family, as one would assume "find the Jedi, particularly the ones who attacked the Emperor and Lord Vader" as among their jobs.

See my above "sense of scale" argument. Obi-wan didn't even have to change his name, to be honest. There's probably at least a dozen other people named Obi-wan on Tatooine alone and the Imps wouldn't know where to start looking. Sometimes hiding in plain sight just works.

and the gambit at Endor destroyed the polity they served because they were thick enough to let the Emperor actually go in person (Naturally he might have done that himself; but then it can't be credited to them).

That's all on Palpatine, not Imperial Intelligence. Think about it: if your boss is the Dark Lord of the Sith, telling him he's being an idiot by risking himself to sate his complexity addiction is, shall we say, hazardous to your health. They didn't warn the Emperor off his intended course because they were fucking terrified of him.

[WATCH-MAN]

We see in Into Darkness that it's a physical module, no doubt they're not above slapping a hunk of C4 to the side and blowing it up if stormtroopers are cutting through the door.

In Star Trek (XI) Spock and Scotty were able to modify an already existing transporter system using Scottys equation. It seems plausible to assume that with this equation every transporter could be modified. Insofar the ability to transwarp beaming does not seem to be a matter of equipment but of knowledge. That is a little bit more difficult to destroy with a hunk of C4.

[biostem]

We see in Into Darkness that it's a physical module, no doubt they're not above slapping a hunk of C4 to the side and blowing it up if stormtroopers are cutting through the door.

In Star Trek (XI) Spock and Scotty were able to modify an already existing transporter system using Scottys equation. It seems plausible to assume that with this equation every transporter could be modified. Insofar the ability to transwarp beaming does not seem to be a matter of equipment but of knowledge. That is a little bit more difficult to destroy with a hunk of C4.

Wasn't that transporter in a shuttle that Scotty specifically mentioned he had been working on for some time?

Regardless, that particular instance of transwarp beaming was done, IIRC, using some sort of transponder or tracking info that they already had regarding Enterprise. I would imagine that it would be more difficult to transport onto a ship whose whereabouts they didn't have, (which could explain why they used a more "stationary" target like a planet when it came to teleporting Kahn).

Also, why don't they use the shuttle transporters in all those instances where the main ones lose power or go offline for some reason? It would have saved Data in Nemesis...