Transwarp Beaming

[NecronLord]

We see in Into Darkness that it's a physical module, no doubt they're not above slapping a hunk of C4 to the side and blowing it up if stormtroopers are cutting through the door.

In Star Trek (XI) Spock and Scotty were able to modify an already existing transporter system using Scottys equation. It seems plausible to assume that with this equation every transporter could be modified. Insofar the ability to transwarp beaming does not seem to be a matter of equipment but of knowledge. That is a little bit more difficult to destroy with a hunk of C4.

Yes. But it's been classified, and Starfleet has not passed out knowledge of the equation. Only beaming modules exist as far as we know. Which is much more secure and speaks well of their ability.

[NecronLord]

That's all on Palpatine, not Imperial Intelligence.

Yes, you can blame a lot on the ineptitude of Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin. But Imperial Intelligence will never be free of such people, and will always work to their agendas. To the point that Vader let Tyderium go past, and no one in Imperial Intelligence or the fleet was there to say "Shoot it."

They're led by bozos, and this hampers their operational efficiency. Let's imagine it now.

Colonel Yularen: Why are we letting them escape?
Grand Moff Tarkin: We have a homing beacon aboard their ship.
Colonel Yularen: The ship with the plans to our death station on it that we've been trying to recover?
Grand Moff Tarkin: Yes, but we want to find the rebel base.
Colonel Yularen: How about we prevent them getting away instead and interrogate them more? Ion cannon control, the freighter leaving the station.
Grand Moff Tarkin: No! Belay that!

Really, though I'm not going to do a detailed reply. If people think that Imperial Intelligence will somehow obtain transwarp beaming units, the burden of proof is on them to back that assertion.

[Batman]

While it is indeed on those claiming Imperial Intelligence will inevitably get their hands on Transwarp beaming modules and figure out a way to counter them, I feel it only fair to ask the people assuming it would be a game-changer to prove it. Can it go through shields, Federation or Imperial? How much FTL speed can it compensate for? What range does it have, does that range depend on available power, does it need a receiving transporter at the other end (because I dimly seem to recall that being mentioned in NuTrek and given that transporters are all over the place in Trek, Qu'Nos is going to be lousy with them, and so on.

Now my personal opinion is 'insufficient data'. We simply don't have enough information yet to determine how nuTrek would fare against Wars. But if you think Transwarp beaming is going to be the big equalizer, you explain why that is the case.

[WATCH-MAN]

What we know is that Kirk and Scotty could beam aboard the warp-travelling Enterprise in Star Trek (XI) and that no receiving transporter at the other end was necessary. They materialised in the water treatment plant of the ship.

They used the transporter system of a shuttle on Delta Vega after Spock enters the necessary equation into its console. No further modification on the transporter system were done or mentioned.

In Into Darkness Khan beamed to Qo'noS with a portable beaming device. There is no evidence for the necessity of a receiving transporter on Qo'noS in this instance either.

Conclusion:

Transwarp beaming does not need a receiving transporter at the other end.

Transwarp beaming does not need special hardware. A conventional transporter system can be modified by entering the transwarp beaming equation.

The energy consumption should be manageable if a transportable beaming device could beam Khan from Earth to Qo'noS.

With transwarp beaming, it is possible to beam aboard of warp-travelling ships and on planets many light-years away.

That are - as far as I know - all avaible informations.

[Batman]

What we know is that Kirk and Scotty could beam aboard the warp-travelling Enterprise in Star Trek (XI) and that no receiving transporter at the other end was necessary. They materialised in the water treatment plant of the ship.

Not necessarily true. We DO know the Big E has transporters so the two of them materializing elsewhere on the ship does not conclusively exclude the need for a receiving transporter. Just because Scotty and Jim didn't end up on the transporter pad doesn't necessarily mean the receiving transporter wasn't a vital part of the evolution- it's never mentioned in the movie and usually materializing somewhere else than the transporter pad on an incoming transport requires a deliberate preset site-to-site transport but given we know essentially beans about nuTrek transporters, we can't completely rule it out yet. Either way means pretty shoddy accuracy (but confirms the ability of transporters to somehow evacuate the area where the transportees rematerialize-nevermind air, you'd think there'd be pretty noticeable (and likely fatal) effects when you transport somebody into a tube already full of water).

[WATCH-MAN]

Not necessarily true. We DO know the Big E has transporters so the two of them materializing elsewhere on the ship does not conclusively exclude the need for a receiving transporter. Just because Scotty and Jim didn't end up on the transporter pad doesn't necessarily mean the receiving transporter wasn't a vital part of the evolution

While this may be formally correct - insofar as that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and the simplest available theory does not have to be the correct theory - this speculation intoduces events into the chain of causation, which are unnecessary and can't be proven.

We have seen many times in the Star Trek franchise that persons have beamed from a ship to a planet - and it was never mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter is needed. I admit that this was the old transporter system and the new transporter system may operate differently.

But in Star Trek (XI) Kirk and Scotty beamed aboard the warp travelling Enterprise and it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter is needed.

Later, Kirk and Spock beamed from the Enterprise in Titan's orbit to the Romulan ship in Earth's orbit (distance at least 7,9 AU or round about 1'181'000'000 km) and again it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter is needed.

And it seems unlikely that one has to tap somehow into a receiving transporter system to beam aboard but that the crew does not notice this and can't prevent it - by deactivating their own transporter system.

So yes, while your speculation can't be excluded, it seems unlikely.

And usually the burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims.

usually materializing somewhere else than the transporter pad on an incoming transport requires a deliberate preset site-to-site transport

Please present evidence that an incoming transport requires a deliberate preset site-to-site transport.

Do you have any evidence that the Ferengis who beamed aboard the Enterprise in Rascals needed a deliberate preset site-to-site transport?

Do you have any evidence that when Riker, La Forge, and Data beamed aboard the Vico in Hero Worship they needed a deliberate preset site-to-site transport?

Do you have any evidence that when Data, La Forge and Troi beamed aboard the Romulan Warbird in Timescape they needed a deliberate preset site-to-site transport?

but given we know essentially beans about nuTrek transporters, we can't completely rule it out yet.

Correct

As we can't rule out the Invisible Pink Unicorn and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Either way means pretty shoddy accuracy

Scotty: The notion of transwarp beaming is like, trying to hit a bullet with a smaller bullet whilst wearing a blindfold, riding a horse.

[Batman]

Hm. I seem to have conflagrated my assumption of the potentional necessity of a receiving transporter with the fact they didn't appear there, and thus if they had needed a receiving transporter they'd need a site-to-site to redirect. You are quite correct that people routine are beamed down to locations with no receiving transporter (and always have been).

[StarSword]

Really, though I'm not going to do a detailed reply. If people think that Imperial Intelligence will somehow obtain transwarp beaming units, the burden of proof is on them to back that assertion.

I never actually said Imperial Intelligence could definitely get ahold of the tech, I was simply refuting the one guy's assertion that they were totally and utterly incompetent at everything. I consider the idea plausible but dependent on how good Starfleet Intelligence is at counterintel. (Do we have any data on that?)

[Enigma]

Plus I don't think stopping one volcanic eruption constitutes "large scale geoengineering." It's impressive, certainly but not on the scale your irritating little mind fervently wishes it was.

The jewllry sized explosive is also hardly revolutionary. They've had antimatter weapons for a century or more as of STID and that can easily create explosions in the range we saw whilst still being that small.

See, if you really wanted to bring up something from the new Trek films that would be of use, you should have mentioned the much faster warp speeds and the fact that they have started using phasers as point defence rather than relying purely on shields.

Would using the ship's phasers to drill into the planet's crust to heat up the planet be considered "large scale geoengineering?"? It didn't seem all that complicated that the NuTrek couldn't do if they tried if the situation called for it. Then again it is just an assumption.

[Donal]

Hm. I seem to have conflagrated my assumption of the potentional necessity of a receiving transporter with the fact they didn't appear there, and thus if they had needed a receiving transporter they'd need a site-to-site to redirect. You are quite correct that people routine are beamed down to locations with no receiving transporter (and always have been).

Ah, but are they traveling at warp speed when doing so? Nope.

We have 3 confirmed instances of transwarp in use. First from a Federation outpost to a Federation ship in warp. Second, from that same Fed ship over a much smaller distance to a Romulan ship with its own transporter. Neither ship in warp (not really sure why that one qualifies as transwarp, but whatever)

The third is a little more complicated. Kahn didn't beam straight to Qo'noS from his jumpship. He beamed to a freighter in orbit outside of Earth. From there, he beamed to another ship near the Moon. This is where he actually used a transwarp device, which was hooked up directly to the ship's warp core. Of course, we have no idea what set up he had on Qo'noS, so we can't tell if he did indeed have another transporter.

There is also still the question of shields and such. Does transwarp beaming still have all the other weaknesses of regular beaming? Does mass affect how far or how much energy you need? Does distance play a role in accuracy? Does speed? Does gravity? How does the subject being transported perceive time? Are there detectable reactions in space and time?

there are too many questions to say one way or the other what effect it would have.

[WATCH-MAN]

The third is a little more complicated. Kahn didn't beam straight to Qo'noS from his jumpship. He beamed to a freighter in orbit outside of Earth. From there, he beamed to another ship near the Moon. This is where he actually used a transwarp device, which was hooked up directly to the ship's warp core.

This seems to come from the novelization - which is not canon.

Furthermore it seems to be overriden by the movie itself. The portable transwarp beaming device stayed behind in the atmospheric shuttlecraft with which Khan attacked Starfleet Headquarters. Scotty discovered that Khan beamed to Qo'noS while analyzing this device and reported to Kirk, showing him the coordinates on the display of the device, that Khan is at a place where they can't follow him. But if Khan had only beamed to "a freighter in orbit outside of Earth" with this device, at least they could have followed him to the freighter and had only learned there that Khan beamed to Qo'noS where they can not follow him.

Ah, but are they traveling at warp speed when doing so? Nope.

We have 3 confirmed instances of transwarp in use. First from a Federation outpost to a Federation ship in warp. Second, from that same Fed ship over a much smaller distance to a Romulan ship with its own transporter.

And?
Yes: There is a difference to classical beaming. But there ist still nothing that implies that a receiving transporter system is needed. As was already said: It seems unlikely that one has to tap somehow into a receiving transporter system to beam aboard of a ship but that the crew of said ship does not notice this and can't prevent it - by deactivating their own transporter system.

Neither ship in warp (not really sure why that one qualifies as transwarp, but whatever)

Distance: At least 7,9 AU or round about 1'181'000'000 km between Titan an Earth - a little bit more than what a classical transporter system can do.

There is also still the question of shields and such. Does transwarp beaming still have all the other weaknesses of regular beaming? Does mass affect how far or how much energy you need? Does distance play a role in accuracy? Does speed? Does gravity? How does the subject being transported perceive time? Are there detectable reactions in space and time?

there are too many questions to say one way or the other what effect it would have.

What does this have to do with the question, if a receiving transporter system is needed?

there are too many questions to say one way or the other what effect it would have.

While we do not know all there is to know about transwarp beaming and hence can not know all effects it could have, we already know a little bit about it and thus are able to deduce at least a few effects it can have.

[Donal]

This seems to come from the novelization - which is not canon.

Fair enough

Furthermore it seems to be overriden by the movie itself. The portable transwarp beaming device stayed behind in the atmospheric shuttlecraft with which Khan attacked Starfleet Headquarters. Scotty discovered that Khan beamed to Qo'noS while analyzing this device and reported to Kirk, showing him the coordinates on the display of the device, that Khan is at a place where they can't follow him. But if Khan had only beamed to "a freighter in orbit outside of Earth" with this device, at least they could have followed him to the freighter and had only learned there that Khan beamed to Qo'noS where they can not follow him.

Unless it was some sort of preprogramed automated sequence.

And?
Yes: There is a difference to classical beaming. But there ist still nothing that implies that a receiving transporter system is needed. As was already said: It seems unlikely that one has to tap somehow into a receiving transporter system to beam aboard of a ship but that the crew of said ship does not notice this and can't prevent it - by deactivating their own transporter system.

We know next to nothing about it. That is the whole point. It could be as simple as plugging more complex math into a regular transporter or it could require some sort of beacon to lock onto and a ton more power.

What does this have to do with the question, if a receiving transporter system is needed?

the point of the conversation is how effective transwarp beaming would be against SW ships. The receiving end was just one of several questions.

While we do not know all there is to know about transwarp beaming and hence can not know all effects it could have, we already know a little bit about it and thus are able to deduce at least a few effects it can have.

we don't know the important stuff. That is the problem.

[WATCH-MAN]

Unless it was some sort of preprogramed automated sequence.

Elaborate!

It could be as simple as plugging more complex math into a regular transporter

That's exactly what Spock has done with the the transporter system of a shuttle on Delta Vega. No further modification on the transporter system were done or mentioned.

or it could require some sort of beacon to lock onto

In Star Trek (XI), Kirk and Scotty beamed aboard the warp travelling Enterprise and it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.

Later, Kirk and Spock beamed from the Enterprise in Titan's orbit to the Romulan ship in Earth's orbit (distance at least 7,9 AU or round about 1'181'000'000 km) and again it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.

In Star Trek - Into Darkness, Khan beamed to Qo'noS and again it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.

and a ton more power.

The energy consumption should be manageable if a transportable beaming device could beam Khan from Earth to Qo'noS.

the point of the conversation is how effective transwarp beaming would be against SW ships. The receiving end was just one of several questions. [...] we don't know the important stuff. That is the problem.

Maybe you should read the whole thread. Most of the following was already said:

• • • • What we know is that Kirk and Scotty could beam aboard the warp-travelling Enterprise in Star Trek (XI) and that
        it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed. They materialised in the water treatment plant of the ship - with Scotty inside a water filled tube. They used the transporter system of a shuttle on Delta Vega after Spock enters the necessary equation into its console. No further modification on the transporter system were done or mentioned.
        
        Later, Kirk and Spock beamed from the Enterprise in Titan's orbit to the Romulan ship in Earth's orbit (distance at least 7,9 AU or round about 1'181'000'000 km) and again it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.
        
        In Star Trek - Into Darkness, Khan beamed to Qo'noS with a portable beaming device and again it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.
        
        Conclusion:
        
        Transwarp beaming does not need a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon at the other end.
        
        Transwarp beaming does not need special hardware. A conventional transporter system can be modified by entering the transwarp beaming equation.
        
        The energy consumption should be manageable if a transportable beaming device could beam Khan from Earth to Qo'noS.
        
        With transwarp beaming, it is possible to beam aboard of warp-travelling ships and on planets many light-years away.
        
        That are - as far as I know - all avaible informations.
        
        But that are enough informations to deduce at least a few effects transwarp beaming can have.

[Donal]

Elaborate!

Just spit balling here since the novelization isn't canon but:

It could be that Kahn's acted as a controller for the other transporters he hopped through. He hits the start button and it begins the sequence.

That's exactly what Spock has done with the the transporter system of a shuttle on Delta Vega. No further modification on the transporter system were done or mentioned.

That Scotty was already experimenting on.

In Star Trek (XI), Kirk and Scotty beamed aboard the warp travelling Enterprise and it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.

they don't mention anything about how it works.

In Star Trek - Into Darkness, Khan beamed to Qo'noS and again it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.

What did his receiving area look like? Oh ya, we didn't see it.

The energy consumption should be manageable if a transportable beaming device could beam Khan from Earth to Qo'noS.

Again you assume how it works when we don't actually see it on both ends.

Maybe you should read the whole thread. Most of the following was already said:

Maybe you should go read the whole thread. The first post simply asked what effect transwarp beaming would affect a theoretical conflict between both universes.

Repeating several claims as if they have been proven doesn't mean they have.

Besides, those still don't answer other important questions. Like, is transwarp beaming just regular beaming over further distances? If it is, then it doesn't matter since regular beaming is worthless against shields, armor, slightly overcast days etc etc..

[WATCH-MAN]

Just spit balling here since the novelization isn't canon but:

It could be that Kahn's acted as a controller for the other transporters he hopped through. He hits the start button and it begins the sequence.

While this can't be disproved, there is nothing that supports this far-fetched idea.

That Scotty was already experimenting on.

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

they don't mention anything about how it works.

As in all Star Trek series it was never really explained how the transporter or any other system (warp-drive, phaser etc.) works (using technobabble is no explanation as it does not explain how something works).

What did his receiving area look like? Oh ya, we didn't see it.

Maybe you should watch the movie. At least in the version I have seen, it was shown how Khan materialized on Qo'noS and it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.

But even if the movie had not shown it: We have seen the destination where Kirk and Scotty materialized when they beamed aboard the Enterprise and the destination where Kirk and Spock materialized when they beamed aboard the Romulan ship. In both cases it was neither mentioned, shown or implied that a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon was needed.

Is there any reason why we should assume that - contrary to both other uses of the transwarp beaming technology - beaming from Earth to Qo'noS needs a receiving transporter or a sort of beacon and that Khan has somehow arranged for such?

Do you think that he asked a Klingon to do it?

Or do you think that he was already on Qo'noS and has done it himself?

Again you assume how it works when we don't actually see it on both ends.

I do not assume how the transwarp beaming technology works. I'm not that arrogant. But I observe what was shown in the movies: In all three times the transwarp beaming technology was used, we have seen where and how the beamed people have materialized. Neither was a receiving transporter, a sort of beacon or a power plant at the destination shown or mentioned or its existence implied.

Maybe you should go read the whole thread. The first post simply asked what effect transwarp beaming would affect a theoretical conflict between both universes.

You didn't answer the first post. You responded to a post from Batman he made in response to what I have argued.

Repeating several claims as if they have been proven doesn't mean they have.

If you do not agree with what you regard as a claim, you should say that and say why you disagree. But you haven't done that. Instead you have repeated arguments that were already dealt with.

Besides, those still don't answer other important questions. Like, is transwarp beaming just regular beaming over further distances?

That's more or less exactly what we have to assume unless shown otherwrise.

If it is, then it doesn't matter since regular beaming is worthless against shields, armor, slightly overcast days etc etc..

While conventional beaming is not a godlike ability, to say it doesn't matter is quite stupid as it has it advantages nevertheless. And transwarp beaming has even more advantages. (Not every planet in the Star Wars Galaxy has shields and even those who have shields do not have them up 24/7.)

[Prometheus Unbound]

So you guys missed that entire plot element of the first movie where Old Spock gives Scotty HIS OWN EQUATION on trans warp beaming? It obviously existed in Old Trek and therefore was made irrelevant by something.

Twice it's been done. One was very dangerous (TNG - The Vengeance Factor (I think??) with a terrorist using something similar over large distances, but the cumulative radiation kills the users) and the other is Dominion technology (seen twice - Eris in The Jem'Hadar and later someone beamed from DS9 to Empok Nor which was about 3 light years).

[Batman]

I rather suspect you're thinking of the folded-space transporters from 'The High Ground', which were never seen to work beyond completely ordinary transporter ranges. There's nothing about unusual transporters in 'The Vengeance Factor'.
Also, nothing in 'The Jem'Hadar' mentions Transwarp beaming that I can remember, they just managed to beam her off the station despite the shields being up and no Dominion ships being on sensors (in fact I dimly do seem to remember there being something about there being traces of a Dominion ship making tracks for the Gamma Quadrant afterwards, but it's been a while since I saw that episode).

[Prometheus Unbound]

I rather suspect you're thinking of the folded-space transporters from 'The High Ground', which were never seen to work beyond completely ordinary transporter ranges. There's nothing about unusual transporters in 'The Vengeance Factor'.

Yes, that one.

I'm sure there was something strange about the high ground ones... was it they could go through shields? They were using them for a reason over normal transporters. Meh.... it's been 25 years, I can't remember:p

Also, nothing in 'The Jem'Hadar' mentions Transwarp beaming that I can remember, they just managed to beam her off the station despite the shields being up and no Dominion ships being on sensors (in fact I dimly do seem to remember there being something about there being traces of a Dominion ship making tracks for the Gamma Quadrant afterwards, but it's been a while since I saw that episode).

Shields were down - Eris was beamed "somewhere" - there were no ships nearby (and certainly nothing about a ship heading towards the wormhole). Kira just said "she's... gone". Dominion transporters (as seen in Empok Nor) can go up to 3 light years in certain circumstances - presumably Eris used the same thing (no reason why not ).

No, they weren't "transwarp" by name - I just mean it has been known to happen.

No Federation tech has managed it before Trek 2009, at any rate.


EDIT: The High Ground ones were used to bypass shields, you're right. (memory alpha).

[Prometheus Unbound]

Disregard the above post, I was half way through editing when the edit timeout came in. Please refer to this post:

I rather suspect you're thinking of the folded-space transporters from 'The High Ground', which were never seen to work beyond completely ordinary transporter ranges. There's nothing about unusual transporters in 'The Vengeance Factor'.

Yes, that one.

I'm sure there was something strange about the high ground ones... was it they could go through shields? They were using them for a reason over normal transporters. Meh.... it's been 25 years, I can't remember:p

EDIT: The High Ground ones were used to bypass shields, you're right. (memory alpha).

Also, nothing in 'The Jem'Hadar' mentions Transwarp beaming that I can remember, they just managed to beam her off the station despite the shields being up and no Dominion ships being on sensors (in fact I dimly do seem to remember there being something about there being traces of a Dominion ship making tracks for the Gamma Quadrant afterwards, but it's been a while since I saw that episode).

The Jem'Hadar


Sisko: Chief?
O'Brien: I'm picking up a transporter signature but I can't trace it. She didn't rematerialise on the station and there are no ships nearby.
Kira: She'll be back.



Covenant: (based on Empok Nor, different episode, my bad)

Kira is in her quarters - some spy / dude hands her a glowy thingy which we presume to be a signal amplifier or... something like that.

She materialises:

Bajoran: Welcome... to Empok Nor!
Kira: Empok Nor? That's impossible!
Bajoran: I know it's a long way.

Then later on in the episode:

Sisko: Their transporters [dominion] operate over longer distances than ours. What's their maximum range?
Worf: If a homing transponder is in place, up to three light years.


No, they weren't "transwarp" by name - I just mean it has been known to happen (very long distance). Just saying, Spock may have taken the tech from them and modified it.

No Federation tech has managed it before Trek 2009, at any rate.

[Batman]

I wouldn't exactly call 3 ly 'very long distance' even by Trek standards (overall, it definitely is for transporters) but as long as we agree there was no mention of Transwarp beaming in these incidences, we're cool.

[Ted C]

There are long-range transports used in TNG "Bloodlines". Daimon Bok uses them transport messages and himself onto the Enterprise from beyond sensor range, and to transport Picard's "son" off of the ship. Geordi subsequently improvises a way to transport Picard to the Ferengi ship using the same methodology.

[Prometheus Unbound]

This seems fitting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N15J4ibej8

[Tribble]

I don't think this would have a significant impact on "Federation vs Empire" war, even if we are generous by assuming the transporter is direct and beams through shielding (which there is no evidence of). What is the Federation going to do with it? There are no examples of them using the tech to transport ships, and as far as we know it might only be able to beam over a squad or two at most. The only thing I can think of is them using is for guerilla tactics and sabotage. This might cause a fair amount of damage, especially if they have access to that black hole forming red matter, but even then they can't possibly win this. The Empire is Galaxy wide and encompasses millions of worlds - it could lose planets at a 100:1 ratio and still come out on top. And while the Empire's ships may not be as quick as the transporter, they'll still be able to reach fed space in a short timeframe and start curb-stomping whatever Fed forces they come across, whether in space or on the ground. And I doubt even Section 31 would continue their guerilla warfare for long once the Empire starts BDZing Fed planets every time a guerilla attack is carried out.

[biostem]

I think most Trekkies picture Fed ships transwarp beaming armed photon torpedoes onto the bridge or engine room of every Imperial ship, from light years away, as an instant "I win" button.

[Lord Revan]

this boils down again to the fact that we know next to nothing about how transwarp beaming works, so we can't really say how it will behave.