A way ST forces could win a battle with the Empire

[Jm81]

No comment about about knocking out a ships shields... were you just making stuff up or do I have the wrong timestamp???

RoJ paperback, p178.

Justification for the paperback written by James Khan having canon precedence over the show written by George Lucas?

Chris Cerasi editor for Lucas Books which authorizes these novels (2001 @ Ask the Jedi Council Event)
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences."

So when a contradiction between a book and the highest level of canon exists, which do you think trumps which?

[Captain Seafort]

So when a contradiction between a book and the highest level of canon exists, which do you think trumps which?

The film of course, but in this case the issue is irrelevant, as there's no contradiction whatsoever. Ackbar stated that bringing the shields down was a prerequisite for the fighters to be effective, and later ordered all fire to be concentrated on the Ex. Taken together his order was clearly directed primarily at the capships, in order to bring down the shields.

[Lord Revan]

JM you like to talk about Occam's razor but tell me this which one this the more simple theory, disruptors are AM based but somehow act unlike we'd expect from an AM reactions or that disruptors are based on the same basic princibles as phasers but with minor differences to actual phasers. one adds an unknown technobabble explanation so that 1 peice of evidence triumphs over all other, the other uses an explanation that while still technobabble is with known characteristics which we can make predictions on how it should behave and more importantly does consider all evidence equally.

Then there's the thing that why would SF call them disruptors and not anti-proton beams, I mean it could cause a fatal mistake when a crew has to remember mid battle was it klingon or romulan disruptor that were the AM weapons. It just makes no sense from a tactical PoV and while UFP isn't all that militaristic, they're not THAT stupid.

[Ted C]

And what is your justification for the inherent claim that hand disruptors operate on wildly different principles from starship disruptors? This isn't a matter of a trying to make a science fiction term conform to a modern definition: this is you trying to claim that the same made-up term is used in two entirely different ways in one show.

The simple fact that I don't assume beyond what canon evidence states and I try to use an occum's razor approach to this stuff. Data said anti-protons are detected, Riker immediately states that is from Romulan disruptor fire. Hence Romulan disruptor fire utilizes a/m. No such comments are made for the hand held disruptors. Now I could invent some explanation like disruptors are some wild exotic weapon that creates antiprotons as a biproduct but I have seen no canon evidence to support this suddenly newly created weapon type by posters here.

So you actually based it on nothing, then. Just checking.

[Jm81]

So when a contradiction between a book and the highest level of canon exists, which do you think trumps which?

The film of course, but in this case the issue is irrelevant, as there's no contradiction whatsoever. Ackbar stated that bringing the shields down was a prerequisite for the fighters to be effective, and later ordered all fire to be concentrated on the Ex. Taken together his order was clearly directed primarily at the capships, in order to bring down the shields.

On the contrary we do indeed have a contradiction. The first is a novel by James Khan stating the above, the second is in George Lucas' TCW show showing a squadron of un-shielded tri-droid fighters passing through a republic war ship's shields and then taking the shield generators out.

Evidence:
http://www.scifights.net/starwarsshields2.mov
Time stamp 10:28 - 10:39 Un-shielded droid tri-fighters attack a shielded capital ship with intent to knock out its shields.
Time stamp 10:43 Capital ship's regional port side deflector shields are down

Secondly we see in Revenge of the Sith:
http://www.movie2k.to/Star-Wars-Episode ... 93241.html
Time stamp 6:53 Obi states "Do you notice that the Shields (note plural shield(s)) are still up.
Time stamp 7:01 Anakin destroys the hanger bay shields with fighter weapons
Time stamp 7:10 fighters pass though ship shields and into hanger bay
Time stamp 7:15 - 14:30 The flag ship is not in combat and not being shot at.
Time stamp 14:28 first "thud" of weapon fire
Time stamp 14:51 General Grevious orders the flag ship into combat for the first time

So we do have a contradiction. And clearly TCW and Revenge of the Sith trump some book that James Kahn wrote.

[Jm81]

JM you like to talk about Occam's razor but tell me this which one this the more simple theory, disruptors are AM based but somehow act unlike we'd expect from an AM reactions or that disruptors are based on the same basic princibles as phasers but with minor differences to actual phasers. one adds an unknown technobabble explanation so that 1 peice of evidence triumphs over all other, the other uses an explanation that while still technobabble is with known characteristics which we can make predictions on how it should behave and more importantly does consider all evidence equally.

Then there's the thing that why would SF call them disruptors and not anti-proton beams, I mean it could cause a fatal mistake when a crew has to remember mid battle was it klingon or romulan disruptor that were the AM weapons. It just makes no sense from a tactical PoV and while UFP isn't all that militaristic, they're not THAT stupid.

Isn't it obvious? Occam's razor, lets see...

Data states anti-proton are detected, Riker chimes in immediately stating Romulan disruptors, and Data agrees. So we have two possibilities:
1. Romulan Disruptors are a/m weapons composed of anti-protons and if used would indeed have residual a/m floating around in space AND having caused a massive explosion upon contact with a un-shielded have the characteristics of a m/am explosion.

OR

2. Romulan disruptors are some strange exotic weapon never explained in any canon episodes that somehow through some further never explained process leave behind a/m based off of no canon evidence and is, in short, a weapon process invented by some fans on a vs website.


Now if we truly are having a conversation, and we honestly are trying to draw conclusions that have the greatest amount of canon support, then the simple choice in my opinion is #1.

You ask me why call something a disruptor if other disruptors clearly work off of different processes? Why would Lucas call Turbo lasers such if they aren't lasers? Obvious answer for both... SW and ST writers aren't scientists, they name things to make it sound cool with very little consideration of lore or continuity for the sake of ratings. Lets not forget, this is a tv show not reality...

[Jm81]

So you actually based it on nothing, then.

Uhh no.

[Captain Seafort]

On the contrary we do indeed have a contradiction. The first is a novel by James Khan stating the above, the second is in George Lucas' TCW show

I.e. they have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. I'm talking about RotJ, not the Clone Wars. Ackbar stated explicitly that fighters needed enemy capship shields to be disabled before they could be effective. The only explicit statements that any physical object can penetrate shields are a) Anakin and Asokha's briefing on destroyer droids and b) Dodonna's briefing on the first Death Star. All Brian's stuff on other types of shield is inferred, and while he has a pretty solid case for CW era ships, there's nothing of the sort for Imperial ships.

[Ted C]

2. Romulan disruptors are some strange exotic weapon never explained in any canon episodes that somehow through some further never explained process leave behind a/m based off of no canon evidence and is, in short, a weapon process invented by some fans on a vs website.

Since Star Trek ray guns have a long history of being exotic weapons with weird effects, #2 is definitely the go-to choice. Where have you been all these years?

[Jm81]

On the contrary we do indeed have a contradiction. The first is a novel by James Khan stating the above, the second is in George Lucas' TCW show

I.e. they have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. I'm talking about RotJ, not the Clone Wars. Ackbar stated explicitly that fighters needed enemy capship shields to be disabled before they could be effective. The only explicit statements that any physical object can penetrate shields are a) Anakin and Asokha's briefing on destroyer droids and b) Dodonna's briefing on the first Death Star. All Brian's stuff on other types of shield is inferred, and while he has a pretty solid case for CW era ships, there's nothing of the sort for Imperial ships.

The notion that this is JUST from TCW is just not true. RotJ canon movie event
http://www.scifights.net/starwarsshields2.mov
Timestamp 5:48 SSD shields are up
Timestamp 5:55 SSD shields are down

What happened in-between that time? Two a-wings shot at the shield domes on the SSD. Now regardless if the shields were weakened or not two A-wings STILL landed shots and caused physical damage to the surface of the SSD WHILE THE SHIELDS WERE UP! They were there and having their weapons score hits on the physical surface BEFORE SHIELDS WERE TAKEN DOWN in timestamp 5:55. This proves that the a-wings had to pass through the shielding because to get to their location they had to pass through the shielding.

This is a direct contradiction with the novel by James Kahn from the SAME movie! Thus the novel is trumped by the movie.

[Jm81]

2. Romulan disruptors are some strange exotic weapon never explained in any canon episodes that somehow through some further never explained process leave behind a/m based off of no canon evidence and is, in short, a weapon process invented by some fans on a vs website.

Since Star Trek ray guns have a long history of being exotic weapons with weird effects, #2 is definitely the go-to choice. Where have you been all these years?

That is true but is there any canon event of these exotic disruptor weapons leaving as a biproduct anti-protons? If there is, then I will concede the point. If there isn't where is the justification for inventing a process of a weapon on these forums?

And honestly, its easy for me to concede the point if you have evidence, because with additional canon evidence i found, I don't even need disruptors to be a/m for my assertion in this thread.

So again, please show canon evidence that disruptors create a/m as a biproduct.

PS: The disruptor was a pulse not a ray, please see video.

[Captain Seafort]

What happened in-between that time?

Ackbar ordered concentrated fire on the Ex.

Now regardless if the shields were weakened or not two A-wings STILL landed shots and caused physical damage to the surface of the SSD WHILE THE SHIELDS WERE UP!

Prove that shields were still up at the time the A-wings opened fire. Based on ALL the canon evidence, rather than just cherrypicking the bits you like, it's clear that the destruction of the dome was made possible by the shields coming down, not the cause of their failure.

That is true but is there any canon event of these exotic disruptor weapons leaving as a biproduct anti-protons?

"Face of the Enemy" you idiot.

[Jm81]

Prove that shields were still up at the time the A-wings opened fire.

http://www.scifights.net/starwarsshields2.mov
Timestamp 5:48 SSD A-wings are firing
Timestamp 5:55 SSD Shields go down

5:55 is AFTER 5:48 thus proving A-wings not only fired upon and scored physical hits but were at the location BEFORE shields went down!

"Face of the Enemy" you idiot.

Link and timestamp please.

[Captain Seafort]

Timestamp 5:48 SSD A-wings are firing
Timestamp 5:55 SSD Shields go down

Wrong

Timestamp 5:48 SSD A-wings are firing
Timestamp 5:55 OFFICER ANNOUNCES THAT THE SHIELDS ARE DOWN

Prove that the shields were up at the time the A-Wings opened fire.

Link and timestamp please.

It's Riker's statement that we've been going over all this time.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Secondly we see in Revenge of the Sith:
http://www.movie2k.to/Star-Wars-Episode ... 93241.html
Time stamp 6:53 Obi states "Do you notice that the Shields (note plural shield(s)) are still up.
Time stamp 7:01 Anakin destroys the hanger bay shields with fighter weapons
Time stamp 7:10 fighters pass though ship shields and into hanger bay
Time stamp 7:15 - 14:30 The flag ship is not in combat and not being shot at.
Time stamp 14:28 first "thud" of weapon fire
Time stamp 14:51 General Grevious orders the flag ship into combat for the first time
So we do have a contradiction. And clearly TCW and Revenge of the Sith trump some book that James Kahn wrote.

Except that the ship wasn't being ordered into combat for the first time, far from it. Seeing as you ignored this the first time, I'll repeat it:

Wookieepedia

Unable to escape Coruscant, the Invisible Hand had sustained heavy damage from the guns of Republic Star Destroyers over the course of a full day of battle. A screen of Separatist battleships, destroyers, and frigates sheltered the flagship from further harm, but after hours of sustained fighting, the craft's deflector shields were failing.

[Jm81]

Wrong

Timestamp 5:48 SSD A-wings are firing
Timestamp 5:55 OFFICER ANNOUNCES THAT THE SHIELDS ARE DOWN

Prove that the shields were up at the time the A-Wings opened fire.

Nice try, At 5:52 we see the officer reading the screen and announcing what the readings right away. You have no basis to assert that this officer is so grossly negligent that he wouldn't report a HUGE event like shields falling the moment they happened. Really? Is this how desperate your argument is now?

It's Riker's statement that we've been going over all this time.

So you want to point to the scene that is in contention as evidence that the scene is no longer in contention. Circular logic much? Try again.

[Jm81]

Except that the ship wasn't being ordered into combat for the first time, far from it. Seeing as you ignored this the first time, I'll repeat it:

Wookieepedia

Unable to escape Coruscant, the Invisible Hand had sustained heavy damage from the guns of Republic Star Destroyers over the course of a full day of battle. A screen of Separatist battleships, destroyers, and frigates sheltered the flagship from further harm, but after hours of sustained fighting, the craft's deflector shields were failing.

I apologize for not responding to you. Wookiepedia isn't a canon source. If they are citing a canon source please show that as your citation.

[Captain Seafort]

Nice try, At 5:52 we see the officer reading the screen and announcing what the readings right away.

Correct. This is evidence that the failure of the shields, the A-wing attack, and the officer announcing said failure all happened very close together. It is not evidence that the A-wing attack caused said failure.

So you want to point to the scene that is in contention as evidence that the scene is no longer in contention. Circular logic much? Try again.

No, I'm pointing out that without that scene we'd simply consider disruptors to be green phasers, and would have no reason to think they left antimatter behind as a byproduct. Riker's comment in FotE adds this fact, but does not override the huge stacks of evidence that disruptors behave like green phasers. You can't simply treat individual incidents in isolation and declare that said incident contains all the information we require.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I apologize for not responding to you. Wookiepedia isn't a canon source. If they are citing a canon source please show that as your citation.

Notice you still didn't address the actual content. Try checking the page, Wookieepedia uses canon sources, in this case it's the Revenge of the Sith Novelisation (which I mentioned in my earlier post). Check the references at the bottom of the page.
Funny how disruptors don't come up in the list of antimatter weapons:
Antimatter weapon
Also, the only known use of antiprotons as an actual weapon is the one fired by the planet killer:
Antiproton beam
Of course, by your logic Memory Alpha is no more valid than Wookieepedia

[Jm81]

Correct. This is evidence that the failure of the shields, the A-wing attack, and the officer announcing said failure all happened very close together. It is not evidence that the A-wing attack caused said failure.

I never asserted that the A-wings took the shields down by themselves or this was in conjunction with other bombardment. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't know. What I said was we know from the canon event that the A-wings scored physical damage on the SSD and were able to fly to the location and do said damage BEFORE the SSD lost its shields! Thus, to do this they had to pass through the shielding. This contradicts the RoJ novel thus it is trumped by the movie.

No, I'm pointing out that without that scene we'd simply consider disruptors to be green phasers, and would have no reason to think they left antimatter behind as a byproduct. Riker's comment in FotE adds this fact, but does not override the huge stacks of evidence that disruptors behave like green phasers. You can't simply treat individual incidents in isolation and declare that said incident contains all the information we require.

Evidence that ALL disruptors act and look like green phasers?
The episode FotE clearly shows that the disruptor weapon fired by the Romulan warbird wasn't a phaser. It was a pulse! So you simply want to throw that fact away or you can come to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe there are different types of disruptors.

http://www.scifights.net/antimatter.mov
time stamp 6:40 = The only weapon fired and clearly a pulse
time stamp 7:06 = Riker telling us it was a disruptor
time stamp 7:08 = Data agrees with Riker

[Jm81]

Try checking the page, Wookieepedia uses canon sources, in this case it's the Revenge of the Sith Novelisation (which I mentioned in my earlier post). Check the references at the bottom of the page.

"A screen of Separatist battleships, destroyers, and frigates sheltered the flagship from further harm, but after hours of sustained fighting, the craft's deflector shields were failing."

I concede that the ship was in battle already. AND just a few paragraphs down we see:

"As they hurtled toward Grievous's flagship, Skywalker, after being narrowly reminded by Kenobi and R2 that the flagship's shields were still up, took advantage of the fact that the warship's main deflector shields had been partially compromised and destroyed the atmospheric containment shield protecting the hangar bay entrance."

Thanks for giving me a source that supports the assertion that I was trying to make. Anakin's fighter still was able to score hull damage with the ships shields still up and only partially compromised.

Funny how disruptors don't come up in the list of antimatter weapons:
Antimatter weapon
Also, the only known use of antiprotons as an actual weapon is the one fired by the planet killer:
Antiproton beam
Of course, by your logic Memory Alpha is no more valid than Wookieepedia

Wookipedia isn't canon
Memory-alpha isn't canon

Good thing I didn't use it when I found evidence of antimatter being used as a weapon by the federation.
Canon Evidence:
http://www.tubeplus.me/player/1339201/S ... _Blood/%22
Time stamp= 35:55
Time stamp= 43:58

[Jm81]

why are my edits creating posts...

[Jm81]

dbl post

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Try checking the page, Wookieepedia uses canon sources, in this case it's the Revenge of the Sith Novelisation (which I mentioned in my earlier post). Check the references at the bottom of the page.

"A screen of Separatist battleships, destroyers, and frigates sheltered the flagship from further harm, but after hours of sustained fighting, the craft's deflector shields were failing."
I concede that the ship was in battle already. AND just a few paragraphs down we see:
"As they hurtled toward Grievous's flagship, Skywalker, after being narrowly reminded by Kenobi and R2 that the flagship's shields were still up, took advantage of the fact that the warship's main deflector shields had been partially compromised and destroyed the atmospheric containment shield protecting the hangar bay entrance."
Thanks for giving me a source that supports the assertion that I was trying to make. Anakin's fighter still was able to score hull damage with the ships shields still up and only partially compromised.

Exactly, it was the compromise of the deflector shields that enabled him to destroy the containment shield in the first place. And there's the small matter of this:

Unable to escape Coruscant, the Invisible Hand had sustained heavy damage from the guns of Republic Star Destroyers over the course of a full day of battle.

Wookipedia isn't canon
Memory-alpha isn't canon

Irrelevant; both use canon sources.

Good thing I didn't use it when I found evidence of antimatter being used as a weapon by the federation.
Canon Evidence:
http://www.tubeplus.me/player/1339201/S ... _Blood/%22
Time stamp= 35:55
Time stamp= 43:58

We already know the Feds use antimatter weapons, that's not in question.

[Captain Seafort]

I never asserted that the A-wings took the shields down by themselves or this was in conjunction with other bombardment. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't know. What I said was we know from the canon event that the A-wings scored physical damage on the SSD and were able to fly to the location and do said damage BEFORE the SSD lost its shields! Thus, to do this they had to pass through the shielding. This contradicts the RoJ novel thus it is trumped by the movie.

*sigh*

This is evidence that the failure of the shields, the A-wing attack, and the officer announcing said failure all happened very close together. IT IS NOT EVIDENCE THAT THE A-WING ATTACK CAUSED THE SHIELD FAILURE.

Can you read that now? You obviously couldn't the first time.

Evidence that ALL disruptors act and look like green phasers?

Every fucking episode they've been in.

The episode FotE clearly shows that the disruptor weapon fired by the Romulan warbird wasn't a phaser. It was a pulse!

So are the Defiant's phasers and the E-nil's phasers in Balance of Terror.