Klingon Academy Upgrade

[Ahriman238]

We all know the scenario, wormhole opens, Empire invades Federation, Empire curbstomps Federation within a few months, tops. How about we make a few changes.

First, let's have the Federation find the wormhole first. On realizing there is a hostile, technologically superior force on the other side, they fortify their end of the wormhole with the latest model of Starbase with the ver latest in death-dealing equipment and multiple starhips assigned to it. Then they start sending ships to quietly reconnitor the other side, as they did before the Dominion War. The Federation as "aggressors" means there is at least a slight threat to the Empire, in that they could lose installlations, ships, and men they didn't plan on sending in harm's way.

I'll say the ST end of the Wormhole is at Galorndan Core, a planeti n the Neutral Zone. The SW end will be near Ord Mantell.

Second, let's upgrade the Federation's weapons tech a bit. I'm using the old but fairly good game Klingon Academy as a base, feel free to add to it. First, I'll say that several TOS races, such as the Tholians and the Gorn, joined the Federation before the "present" era. This gives the Feddies access to the Tholian Web technology, and also the tractor beam tricks the GOrn use in the game. These include a "Resonator Cannon" which is really just the tractor beam set to alternatively push and pull discrete parts until it shakes the enemy hull apart, a Quantum Carrier-wave Beam (QCB) that grips the enemy in a tractor beam then uses the beam to conduct "quantum energy pulses" to the target (the pulses themselves do half as much damage as a photon torp, but they fire 15 in quick succession and distribute damage across multiple shield arcs while shields are up) and finally a Gravitec Density Distortion Sphere (GDDS) which uses the tractor beam to reinforce the shields, giving 20 seconds of invulnerability to warheads and impacts (ramming speed!) but does shit all against phasers and disruptors.

The Feddies will also have rapid fire phasers (same damage, 2x rof) Assault Phasers (10x the power, 2x the range, 2 rpm) more common use of quantum torpedoes, and large Multiwarheads that only the larger ships will be able to use (basically a MIRV that deploys 6 submunitions, each as powerful as a photon torp.)

Do these changes affect the outcome in any way, or just the timing?

[Darksider]

The Empire is so much larger than the Federation that you could flat-out state that federation ships are now powerful enough to destroy a dozen imperial warships and they would still lose an all-out war of attrition. Adding smaller empires like the Tholians and Gorn won't help much unless they have some sort of magic FuckHuge industrial capacity.

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, I feel that the Empire's vast size is not as deadly as people make it out to be, because they rarely concentrate large numbers of ships in one place.

On the other hand, as long as the Federation is limited to warp speeds it would take them decades to reach most of the Empire's territory.

The best way would be to somehow kill Palpatine and cause the whole thing to collapse due to infighting. But killing Palpatine isn't exactly easy.

[Darth Tedious]

Actually, I feel that the Empire's vast size is not as deadly as people make it out to be, because they rarely concentrate large numbers of ships in one place.

They also never fought an external enemy. Besides the Battle of Endor (which really wasn't even a big fleet) when did the Empire need a lot of ships in one place?
We know from the Clone Wars that fuckoff huge fleets (thousands of ships) are thrown around when needed.
It is quite unrealistic to suggest that the Empire wouldn't use large fleets in a large-scale war. Palpatine organised orchestrated the Clone Wars after all, I think he's aware of the concept of gathering lots of ships in one place.

[Cesario]

The best way would be to somehow kill Palpatine and cause the whole thing to collapse due to infighting. But killing Palpatine isn't exactly easy.

It's a lot easier when you've got experience busting ghosts.

[RogueIce]

The best way would be to somehow kill Palpatine and cause the whole thing to collapse due to infighting. But killing Palpatine isn't exactly easy.

It's a lot easier when you've got experience busting ghosts.

I'm not sure that crossing the proton streams will be all that useful in killing Palpatine.

[Azron_Stoma]

Better off to just try and collapse the Wormhole.

[Connor MacLeod]

The size of the force and the amount of resources the Empire dedicates to any war with a smaller power will invariably depend on how that power is perceived, waht value from its existence can be obtained, and general politics.

As far as the weaposn goes, depends on how much firepower they have and other general performance. Game stats don't translate very well as a rule.

[Cesario]

We all know the scenario, wormhole opens, Empire invades Federation, Empire curbstomps Federation within a few months, tops. How about we make a few changes.

First, let's have the Federation find the wormhole first. On realizing there is a hostile, technologically superior force on the other side, they fortify their end of the wormhole with the latest model of Starbase with the ver latest in death-dealing equipment and multiple starhips assigned to it. Then they start sending ships to quietly reconnitor the other side, as they did before the Dominion War. The Federation as "aggressors" means there is at least a slight threat to the Empire, in that they could lose installlations, ships, and men they didn't plan on sending in harm's way.

[snip]

Do these changes affect the outcome in any way, or just the timing?

One thing these changes do is simplify the situation a lot. If the Empire doesn't have to attack any Milky Way systems to win, we can avoid a lot of the terrain problems that plague the Empire in these versus scenarios, from the risk that they'll try to BDZ Organia without realizing why that's a bad idea, to the prevalence of spatial anomolies in the Milky Way, to the ever present question of why the Empire is even bothering with the fight to begin with and the resulting moralle questions that raises.

If all the Empire has to do is stop Federation agression and defend its own borders, the Rebellion won't be nearly as emboldened as it would if Palpetine was comitting his resources to an extragalactic invasion, since all those ships involved in the war are still in the neighborhood. Further, the moral questions that the Empire's citizens would be asking about blowing the shit out of a smaller, weaker power that's no threat to anyone are also eliminated by the Federation's agressive stance, meaning it's less likely that prosecuting the war will win more for the Rebellion's cause.

On the Federation's side, it offers them the great opportunity of hiding the wormhole and proceeding with hit-and-run tactics until such a time as they're able to contact the rebellion. The Empire thinks it knows its own galaxy, and the Federation is far more likely to find someone who can point them towards the Rebellion before the Empire figures out where the Federation ships are coming from than they would be under the Imperial Invasion scenario. The earlier that alliance is made, the better for the Federation's chances in any versus.

[Darth Tedious]

Would the Rebel Scum be willing to work with the UFP if the Fedies are entering the scene as aggresive invaders?

I'm sure there've been instances of the Empire and Rebellion calling truces to fight third parties...

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmm. I recall one such incident pre-Yuzhan Vong, plus didn't they work together against the Yuzhan Vong?

Though the Federation is hardly the murder and slavery type type, even if they were invading. I think the Rebels helping them would be more likely, so long as the Federation agreed not to permanently occupy the galaxy once the war was over.

[Darth Tedious]

Given that they'd be asking the Rebel Scum for help, the Rebels could pretty easily put some conditions and provisos on said help.
They would certainly need to make the right impression, though.
I mean, "We want you to help us overthrow the government you're trying already to free your galaxy from, and in return we want a chunk of that galaxy once you've helped us..."
How do you make that sound good??

---

Better off to just try and collapse the Wormhole.

Wasn't that my idea from another thread? :V

[Cesario]

More accurately, they'd be offering the Rebellion help with the Rebellion's already in-motion attempt to overthrow the Imperial Government. They'd likely throw in reconstruction aid for their shattered civilization to the extent the Federation is capable of providing. And the Federation doesn't exactly have a history of demanding territorial concessions from its allies or even its defeated enemies.

All they're likely to want at the end is a nonagression agreement, and the possibility of maintaining a mutually beneficial alliance with maybe the possibility of some trade down the line.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not sure that crossing the proton streams will be all that useful in killing Palpatine.

I dunno. It makes a huge explosion, and huge explosions should work on him about as well as anybody else.

I'd like to see a battle of the beams between Palpatine's fingertip lightning and Ghostbusters proton packs. '80s special effects GO!

[Azron_Stoma]

---

Better off to just try and collapse the Wormhole.

Wasn't that my idea from another thread? :V

Yeah but I've thought of it years ago, as I'm sure other people have thought of it too. A pretty standard thing to at least attempt.

[mutanthamster]

On realizing there is a hostile, technologically superior force on the other side

I think you mean on finding that there is a hostile, larger, but technologically inferior force.

[Batman]

No he doesn't.

[Cesario]

Which is the more technologically advanced artifact? A solar powered digital watch, or a sufficiently large pile of gunpowder?

[Batman]

The ability to fit a massively large amount of gunpowder equivalent kaboom into something the size of your digital watch? Like the Wars side can do?

[Connor MacLeod]

I love gunpowder-powered watches.

Oh yes and how are we defining 'more advanced?' A pile of gunpowder and a solar powered watch aren't exactly comparable things. I mena it depends on what the features and capabilities of the watch are, for one thing, as well as the capabilities, nature, and process by which the gunpowder is made (or used) is and stuff.

Furthermore this also assumes 'more advanced' is actually the ideal we are shooting for, which is silly because that invariably leads to the 'newer always means better' nonsense.

And then we end up getting justifications for dropping rocks on the Na'Vi.

[Cesario]

A sutblety lost on people who've gotten far too used to treating the Kardashev scale as something other than the blunt tool that it is. Power generation and consumption tells us some things, but it's not nearly so useful when trying to define "technologically superior" when comparing two settings that we know other details about.

When just comparing straight energy figures, you determine that the person who got together a big pile of black powder is clearly technologically superior to the one with the lithium watch battery.

[Connor MacLeod]

... who the fuck other than you mentioned the Kardashev scale here?

[mutanthamster]

The ability to fit a massively large amount of gunpowder equivalent kaboom into something the size of your digital watch? Like the Wars side can do?

Obviously the Empire can't, which is why their spaceships need to be so big, but the Federation can, which is why their starships can be so small.

[Batman]

Handheld explosives the size of a tennis ball with KT yields and MT level LTLs (nevermind the ICS numbers or downscaling from the DS1) vs photon torpedoes less powerful than equally sized modern day nukes. Yeah, the power/size ratio is definitely in the Federation's favour.

[Connor MacLeod]

I always know I wanted my watch to explode with the force of kilotons of gunpowder. Of course if it were Star Trek we'd be able to mass lighten it and store it in a pocket dimension. Add a replicator and it could be an infinitely-gunpowder-powered watch. And if I lose it, it replicates a new one RIGHT ON MY WRIST.

I suspect there's a key market for that kind of product, which is why that the optimal outcome of a ST vs SW debate is for the two forces to team up and drown all the other universes.. in exploding watches.