That's true. I don't mean totally de-emphasise exploration, I'm thinking have more ship designs like the Sovereign class, fully capable of defending themselves, very rugged (Nemesis tells us that at least), whilst still being able to explore and so on.

When I say de-emphasise, what I really mean is moving the slider slightly further from "Explore" and slightly closer to "Defend."

Nevertheless, that's all fairly incidental to my war plan.

---

You are standing on a 4.5 billion year old complex, self-sustaining organic spacship, which is orbiting a power source a million times larger than your ship. There are 200 billion other power sources, many of them with ships like yours, in your fleet. There are 40 other fleets in the immediate neighbourhood and your entire neighbourhood is moving at two million miles per hour towards an object 150 million light years away. Welcome to life, it's a lot more exciting when you think on larger scales.

It's just that these suggestions to militarize the Federation always seem so very strange to me.

Starfleet is not a military organization.

Starfleet doesn't need to be a military organization.

The United Federation of Planets is technologically far enough ahead of the other powers that it can afford not to be a military organization.

Starfleet's exploration vessels can take on and win against the dedicated warships of the other powers they're usually in fights with, and for exotic threats like the Borg, they're better off with the suites of sophisticated sensor arrays, cybernetics labs, and fancy research departments than they'd be with a few dozen more phaser banks and torpedo launchers.

Fair enough, but you haven't addressed my actual plan.

---

You are standing on a 4.5 billion year old complex, self-sustaining organic spacship, which is orbiting a power source a million times larger than your ship. There are 200 billion other power sources, many of them with ships like yours, in your fleet. There are 40 other fleets in the immediate neighbourhood and your entire neighbourhood is moving at two million miles per hour towards an object 150 million light years away. Welcome to life, it's a lot more exciting when you think on larger scales.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were looking for critique on your "do nothing and pray someone from the future bails us out" strategy.

Seems to me the most likely response the future Federation will have to this is to remove you from power and put someone in power who will handle the fight and win it like they remember happening in the preferred timeline.

That's one way to look at it.

I was assuming though that any "vs" scenario is going to be an intrusion to the timeline rather than a part of it. If it's part of the timeline, fine, I'll let someone better skilled lead the fight.

If it is an intrusion though, maybe the 31st guys will intercede.

---

You are standing on a 4.5 billion year old complex, self-sustaining organic spacship, which is orbiting a power source a million times larger than your ship. There are 200 billion other power sources, many of them with ships like yours, in your fleet. There are 40 other fleets in the immediate neighbourhood and your entire neighbourhood is moving at two million miles per hour towards an object 150 million light years away. Welcome to life, it's a lot more exciting when you think on larger scales.

In a more scifi way, why woudl 29th century Federation men - who have all these powers through the Federation's history of pure science and development of edge technologies - work to protect the administration of someone who is actively reducing those elements? If you (say) cut research budgets for all 500 years, the 29th century guys would be sensibly diminished in capability to save you.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 'preferred' timeline is one where they retain their technology and powers, and in this scenario they'd simply use their powers to protect the science focus of the Federation.

Ok, fine, forget I said anything about changing Starfleet's emphasis on exploration.

Does the preferred timeline include an Imperial incursion and assault? If it does, fine, get some great Admiral to lead the defence. If it doesn't, then it stands to reason the far-future Feds won't permit it to occur.

---

You are standing on a 4.5 billion year old complex, self-sustaining organic spacship, which is orbiting a power source a million times larger than your ship. There are 200 billion other power sources, many of them with ships like yours, in your fleet. There are 40 other fleets in the immediate neighbourhood and your entire neighbourhood is moving at two million miles per hour towards an object 150 million light years away. Welcome to life, it's a lot more exciting when you think on larger scales.

If I get bailed out by my descendents, the Organians, Prophets, Q, or a surprise change of heart by the Empire, I'll consider it a bonus.

I'm not going to rely on any of those things happening, however, because you can't count on any of them with any degree of certainty.

If the future forces do intervene, would we even need to rely on it or be aware of it? If they get it right, would we even be aware of the Imperial advance?

I'm only coming up with this wacky idea becaus eI have no idea how to win a war against the Empire as the Federation, not without totally destroying the Federation in the process.

Of course, you could simply have pointed out that the OP specifies the war does happen, so the future-guys aren't/won't/haven't intervened.

---

You are standing on a 4.5 billion year old complex, self-sustaining organic spacship, which is orbiting a power source a million times larger than your ship. There are 200 billion other power sources, many of them with ships like yours, in your fleet. There are 40 other fleets in the immediate neighbourhood and your entire neighbourhood is moving at two million miles per hour towards an object 150 million light years away. Welcome to life, it's a lot more exciting when you think on larger scales.

Personally, I think it's more fun trying to find a way for the Federation to pull a come-from-behind victory off.



If we make use of the Subspace Transporter, we can neutralize the shielding and firepower disparity by just beaming antimatter bombs next to the reactor cores of enemy ships, past armor and shields. We know the Federation knows how to make a Subspace Transporter, and we know the thing ignores every known form of shielding and scrambling. (Otherwise they'd have taken Picard's supposed son to one of those planets full of raretanium ore that blocks transporters.) This also gives us an engagement range of a few lightyears.

The Federation never considered weaponizing this technology, but since I'm in charge of Starfleet for the duration of this war, I can.

Knowing where the Star Destroyers are going to exit hyperspace every time thanks to next Thursday's intelligence briefing lets me blow up any ships they send to attack my worlds before they can get any shots off. (Likewise the Death Star when they send it.)



Defense alone won't win a war, however, and attacking is where we're going to run into trouble.

Genesis Coruscont and what have you accomplished? You've managed a galactic 9/11. You took out a landmark and killed a bunch of people, but there's nothing really accomplished in terms of winning the war. All you've done is perpetrated a major terrorist attack.

That's why we need the Rebel Alliance. They know the political situation, they're gathering popular support, and they've got the people and knowhow to dismantle the system. Not to mention they've got drive systems that can deliver my ships into position in enemy territory.

If the rebels aren't there, we are in trouble, and will have to do all the intelligence gathering and alliance building ourselves. We've got better tools for getting information out of the unknowing and unwilling than the Empire does, and that should help. Bring along a full Betazed and all we have to worry about is wacky hijinks and embarrassed captains. Our telepaths should be able to identify sympathetic individuals and link us up with groups that can help and warn us away from groups who'll cause trouble for us.

Once inside, we hire smugglers and transports. We may not use money, but that doesn't mean we can't replicate something valuable to barter with for local currency. Our medical knowledge, if nothing else, should fetch us a good price.

Once we know where in the enemy galaxy we're supposed to be attacking, we can start in on the actual counterattack.

Try to get an exception from the Romulans about using Cloaking technology outside the Milky Way, and send some cloaked ships to target their weapons production, Stormtrooper training, and hypermatter mining facilities. The technology to detect cloaked ships that Wars has is expensive and not present on every ship. We can improve our odds of success by checking future intelligence reports about where our ships were detected and destroyed versus where our ships accomplished their missions and not waste ships on missions that they'll fail at.

Main focus is on disrupting the Emperor's ability to use his forces to maintain control in his own galaxy, and make the fomenting of rebellion within his territory easier.

Once we have a fledgeling Rebel Alliance to work with, proceed as in my original plans. Otherwise, keep going on this strategy until the entire enemy Galaxy's military infrastructure is destroyed.

Keep psionic resonators on hand for every ship, with orders to assassinate Palpetine as a target of opportunity should anyone get a chance.

Except we know that Star Destroyer shields extend into subspace (thrawn trilogy) so Subsbace Transporters won't work for the same reason Transphasic torpedoes etc won't either.





Nevermind how your Defense strategy won't work, how exactly are you going to be going about in Imperial space? Even if you get through the wormhole or whatnot Warp is painfully slow, and once you start your initial attacks the information you had from the future is obsolete, so even if your Defense strategy did work, you would no longer know where or when Imperial ships were coming until they were right on top of you.



Again when exactly did your ships get hyperdrives?



Uh, there was only one psionic resonator known, the Stone of Gol, so no you're not going to be having one for every ship.


Yeah none of these tactics would work...

They're also full of enough holes that you can fly a starship through them. Well, at least Death Star shields are (A New Hope). A competent transporter operator can use those holes to put a normal transporter beam through them, but I like to use the subspace transporter for the improved range and because it takes a lot of the stupid arguments about power transformers blocking things off the table. Not to mention ignoring every known form of shielding.

I've read around here that instead of the frequency-based synchronization Federation ships use to fire out of their shields, there's some evidence that the Empire opens actual holes in their shields to use as gunports. Not a problem most days, but you don't even need a complete hole to get a normal transporter beam through, just a relatively weak spot.

Subspace is a big place, and you can't shield it all without infinite power, due to it covering infinite domains. Just having one domain covered doesn't protect you.

I covered this. You seem to have cut it. I have no intention of relying on my own drive systems to deliver my ships to my targets. Isn't it wonderful that Star Wars has so many starships not in the hands of the military-industrial complex? I'm going to be hiring freighters.

Assuming, again, that I can't get in touch with that lovely anti-imperial organization dwelling within the Empire's own borders that would love to negotiate for the kinds of weapons I can provide to help them oust their evil emperor.

Retrive the first one, replicate it.

We know that replicators can duplicate an object without a clear understanding of the device's operating principles from the Deep Space 9 episode Rivals. If for some unfathomable reason the resonator turns out to be made of something we can't replicate with sufficient precision, we turn to the transporter. We know that device can serve as a quantum level replicator and can duplicate anything that can be transported. ("Second Chances") And we know that the Stone of Gol can be transported because it has been transported.

More of a side-issue, however, since what are the odds my crews are going to have a chance to assassinate Old Prune Face while they're out and about anyway?

I don't think you read very carefully. I'm more than willing to discuss the weaknesses of my plan, but you're going to need to meet me halfway by actually reading my plan.

Don't have time to pursue my original discussion, so I'm conceding and withdrawing from the debate. Sorry!

Except for the fact that the Death Star didn't have holes, otherwise they wouldn't have gone through turbulance when they flew in. It does however have rudimentary shielding as described in the Death Star novel, so it's a special case.



Uh, those holes are only open for maybe a split second at most which is nowhere near enough time to get a beam through. They only open when they fire, and are nearly impossible to predict.



Subspace is big but it's not as "multiple domain" whatever as you might think, sure there are different "depths" to it, but going "deeper" wouldn't get around the shield at all, it would just go under it and when it tries to get back out of subspace it'll ram into said shields. Again there's no need to shield "it all"



Except your weapons wouldn't be of any help whatsoever, and the fact that I highly doubt you would be able to afford any of those freighters unless you save up for a very long time.




lmao,



It's nothing remotely unfathomable since there are a wide range of objects/materials etc that cannot be replicated with sufficient precision.



Again if the Transporter could be used like that for just anything, then there would be a wide range of materials that wouldn't be in any way valuable.



Ziltch.



I already have, and it's not convincing in the slightest.

Did you want to go into more depth about this "rudimentary shielding" that makes the fact that they flew hostile freighters and starfighters right through them more than once during the battle of Yavin not count against other, ships in the same universe?

Interesting. I didn't know this much detail was known about their gunport mechanism for their shields. Was this also in the Thrawn books you mentioned earlier, or was there a different source for this?

I mean, since this is your primary argument for normal transporters not being able to penetrate your side's shields, ever, no matter what.

Prediction is fairly easy when you have a record of when they opened gunports. Future briefings are wonderful things.

I think you're knowledge of hypergeometry is a bit flawed. Imagine for a moment that the universe is two-dimensional. Your ship is a square. Your enemy has a weapon that can go under the page you're living on to strike at you bypassing your square armor.

Normally, you have a circle you put around your ship as a shield, but now you need to shield yourself from above and below too. So, with the same sort of line technology, how long of a line do you need to create a barrier that the enemy won't be able to penetrate in the third dimension?

If you thought about this carefully, you would realize that there is no length of line that can be provided to stop the enemy weapon. Thus it requires infinite energy to shield every subspace domain.

Oh, I have weapons that will make a difference, alright. They're the sort of weapons that would make hardened terrorists blanch, and put the Death Star to shame. That's why they don't see much use in Star Trek. Because even the bad guys in Star Trek know better than to go around blowing up habitable worlds, and habitable worlds are the least of the potential targets.

Trilithium torpedos
One area of technological capability where the Federation has a meaningful advantage over the Galactic Empire is, ironically, in the area of strategic superweapons. While the empire can destroy planets with a space station the size of a moon, the federation can supernova stars with a weapon that can be fired out of a standard torpedo launcher. Such a device was used by the El-Aurian Soren in an attempt to alter the path of the energy ribbon he called the Nexus. Dominion agents attempted to utilize a similar device to trigger a supernova in the Bajoran sun in order to wipe out the joint Federation, Klingon, and Romulan Fleet. Trilithium weapons are well known and understood by Federation engineers, to the point where the abovementioned Soren felt it beneficial to abduct the federation engineer Gerodi LaForge in order to interrogate him about his knowledge of trilithium weapons despite the fact that Soren had already developed and deployed one such weapon at that time.

The Genesis Device
Originally envisioned as a planetary terraforming tool, the Genesis device caused significant political tensions between the Federation and the Klingon Empire due to the possibility of the device's use as a weapon of mass destruction, specifically its capability of eliminating and replacing the entire biosphere of a planet with a blank template. The original Genesis device caused an unexpected effect when it created a habitable planet out of the nebular gasses it was detonated in. While this planet proved unstable, it is unclear whether the instability (and subsequent detonation) of the so-called Genesis planet would occur in any planetary body it was used on, or if it was a unique side-effect of this particular misuse of the Genesis effect, the capacity of the Genesis device to devastate Imperial worlds ought to be obvious, what with its capacity to cause planetary scale effects. While presumed lost technology due to the scientists who created it having died in the incident that also saw the destruction of the prototype; the research notes, sensor logs, and of course, base technologies have been available to the federation for decades. Indeed, a protomatter device bearing remarkable similarities to the Genesis device was once utilized by a federation scientist to reignite a dead star. If all else fails, time travel can be employed to retrieve the plans and specifications. Getting the device past the planetary shields of Imperial Worlds will be a challenge, requiring either one of the delivery technologies mentioned elsewhere (such as the dimensional Inverter), or subterfuge, but the possibility of using it to wipe out the political or industrial capacity of entire enemy worlds should not be abandoned due to the mere difficulty of delivery.

The Soloton Wave Generator
Captain Picard, in command of the USS Enterprise-D was at one point called on to assist in the testing of a revolutionary new propulsion system known as the Soloton Wave. Due to an unexpected subspace phenomenon, the Soloton Wave began expanding logarithmically in energy as it progressed along its path, to the point where it threatened to destroy a significant portion of the planet that was supposed to serve as the destination for the vessel propelled by the Soloton Wave. Only a spread of photon torpedoes thrown in the path of the Soloton Wave by the Enterprise before it reached its destination prevented the planet's destruction at the hands of this superluminal subspace effect. Weaponizing the Soloton Wave generator, and installing them at fixed Federation planets and outposts, the federation will be able to prevent the Empire from establishing a permanent beachhead in the Milky Way. Due to the need for the weapon to build up its energy as the wave travels through space, it is unlikely the soloton wave generator would be useful as anything other than a long-range strategic weapon.

Anti-time Eruption
As Captain Picard learned during one of his interactions with the Q, an inverse Tachyon Pulse initiated at the same spatial coordinates in three different points in the time line (which can be accessed by a single ship utilizing the warp slingshot maneuver) can trigger an anti-time eruption which will expand backwards in time destroying at the very least a significant portion of a galaxy, and possibly more. The only known remedy for the anti-time eruption is the use of a static warp bubble, and due to the Empire lacking Warp technology, they will be unable to implement that plan. The downside is that triggering an anti-time eruption even in the enemy galaxy runs the risk of the resulting anomaly growing enough as it travels backward in time to encompass the Milky Way galaxy as well. This is a tactic of last resort, and I hesitate to even bring this one to the table considering the risk of complete destruction of the universe, but only by considering all of our options can we make a truly informed decision on which of those options we wish to take.

Biogenic Weapons
Outlawed by federation law and interplanetary treaties, Biogenic weapons represent one of the most brutal and devastating attacks that can be delivered to another civilization. Deploying a biogenic weapon on an imperial world means not just wiping out all life on that world, but also spreading that destruction to all of that world's trading partners. In a civilization with so vast and active an interstellar economy, large numbers of planets can be infected before the Empire realizes what has happened and been able to put up an effective quarantine. Ordinary biological weapons would afford the Empire some protection by virtue of the diverse species that would need to be effected, but biogenic weapons infect indiscriminately, and can be tailored to kill at any speed we desire for optimal destruction. Obviously this is not the sort of weapon to be used lightly, but considering the enemy's known tendency to utilize superweapons, and our relatively small size, we must keep all options in mind, even as we weigh the consequences of using some of them.

Nanotechnology Weapons
During their temporary alliance with the Borg Collective in the war against species 8472, the Starship Voyager jointly developed nanotech weapons. Technology provided by the Borg and replicated with Voyager's resources included a delivery system consisting of a warhead capable of dispersing nanomachines throughout a radius of several lightyears, while this cloud of nanomachines retained sufficient density for this to serve as an effective weapon. Indeed, the modified borg nanoprobes proved so frighteningly effective that species 8472 (a species known to have deployed planet-destroying weapons in their conflict with the Borg) called off their invasion of our universe after only a single demonstration of this weapon's capability. While in this particular instance a vulnerability of the 8472 bioships was exploited, other nanotechnology weapons can be utilized against Imperial targets, whether this means a nanobot colony infesting their ships and interfering with their systems, entire solar systems infected with biogenic weapons manufactured on location by the nanobots, or some other application, this technology could make a big difference in our ability to counter-attack. Even if this process proves unfeasible when dealing with shielded targets like war fleets, the proven speed of deployment and effectiveness of this technology makes it particularly well suited to surprise attacks and attacks on softer planetary targets.

I've said this before, but the Star Trek universe is a Cold War analogy. As a result, it's full of mind-bogglingly powerful weapons that any sane human being in their situation would never use.

Just because I don't like to play the superweapon dick-waving game doesn't mean I don't know how.

Luke signed on with a high end smuggler for what he considered an exorbitant price that he managed to pay for by selling his hovercar. The federation has hovercars.

Though honestly, I still think Dermal Regenerators, organ replicators, and the like would be far more valuable as trade goods.

Is there something odd about this proposal you'd like to share with the rest of the class?

Yes there are. What evidence is there that the psionic resonator is such an object?

It can't be used like that for just anything. There are a number of substances in Trek that are too volitile to be transported and have to be shipped by shuttlecraft.

There are a wide range of materials that aren't in any way valuable.

Which calls into question why you're working so hard to have the psionic resonator disqualified if my crews are never going to get the chance to use it anyway.

If you'd read carefully, you'd have known about the freighters without me needing to repeat myself, chum.

The Death Star 1 shields were a special case. The big issue with the death star was that you basically have the following requirements: A giant battle station, a planet-destroying super weapon, and shields to protect both of them, all in one package. However, it was found out during construction that, given the size of the reactor, you can only have two of the three working at full capacity. So, it was decided that since it was already heavily armed and armored, having sub-standard shielding would not be an issue, especially since where there would be holes in the main shield grid only things like snub fighters could pass through, nothing that could hope to actually do real damage to the Death Star's vital systems.
That is, of course, unless they have the plans. Ooops.... (I get this information from the novel Death Star)

I'd like to note that there have been cases of starfighters being destroyed by shields in the past, such as in Ep. I, where when attacking the Droid Control Ship several naboo star fighters break up while trying to get through the shields. Notice that these are the shields of a commercial bulk-freighter that had a bunch of turbolasers slapped on to it, not military-grade shields.

1. Star Fleet - get rid of all of the weapons introduced in STTNG onwards. In STTOS hand phasers disintegrated your enemy not just knocked him over and they seemed incapable of missing. Ship phasers could destroy planets, battles took place over vast distances and photon torpedoes affected vast areas of space. Oh, and bring back the mini skirts.

2. Star Wars - Darth Vader only needs to do one thing to make the Empire unbeatable. Turn back to the light side of the Force and become a power for good. Oh, and introduce mini skirts.

I'll agree that the Death Star 1 was a special case. The rebel alliance specifically noted that they were optimizing the Death Star 1's defenses to protect against large capital ships and largely ignoring the idea of a fighter threat.

Your "two out of three" comment confuses me. How is "a giant battlestation" not working at full capacity when it's shields and planet-destroying superweapon are both online? That seemed to be a fairly good combination in Episode 6 with the Death Star 2.

Phasers can still disintegrate people in TNG. There's just rarely a reason to bother doing so. Stun is a great feature, and even killing without a total disintegration is still handy from time-to-time. (Like, for instance, when you want to loot the bodies.)

Hell, in Ensigns of Command, we see a standard hand phaser disintegrate a fairly large aqueduct as a show of power. (Has that incident been used for energy scaling around here that anyone knows of?)

And there is one feature that I think we'd be remiss in removing. Modern phasers have a wide-beam setting. (This should, in fact, be explained to every officer in my new Starfleet, though, since this feature is so often forgotten.)

I don't recall any planets being destroyed by TOS shipboard phasers. Can you give an episode reference for that? I know they can kill gods with them, but I wasn't aware of any planets being taken out.

I'd suggest that the greater ranges in TOS were likely a result of slower ships on the whole. If you can't maneuver very well, it's a lot easier to shoot you from a greater distance. Evasive maneuvers make it really hard to hit ships at significant ranges with subluminal weapons and superluminal sensors.

Not even sure what you're talking about with the photon torpedoes.

But I'm with you all the way on the miniskirts.

Unless I misunderstood the OP, Vader is gone by the time you're put in charge.

I would think his "phasers destroying planets" line is based on TOS "A Taste of Armageddon" when Kirk orders Scotty to prepare for "General Order 24" which entails targeting and destroying all cities and facilities on the planet's surface. Scotty explains this to the leaders of Eminiar VII:

"This is the Commander of the USS Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."

However, an interesting point to note here, is the earlier dialogue between Scotty and McCoy:

"If we can find them...that's a big planet."
"Not to big for the Enterprise to handle if it has to."
"We can't fire full phasers with our screens up. And we can't lower our screens with their disruptors on us."

The original Enterprise, is, according to her own chief Engineer, unable to utilise her full phaser firepower with her shields (called screens in the first season at least) raised.

---

You are standing on a 4.5 billion year old complex, self-sustaining organic spacship, which is orbiting a power source a million times larger than your ship. There are 200 billion other power sources, many of them with ships like yours, in your fleet. There are 40 other fleets in the immediate neighbourhood and your entire neighbourhood is moving at two million miles per hour towards an object 150 million light years away. Welcome to life, it's a lot more exciting when you think on larger scales.

Perhaps I did not phrase it correctly. The problem was that the smaller DS1's reactor couldn't power the gun at a desirable recharge rate, power the battlestation, and high-grade shields that cover all attacks at the same time. The reactor simply wasn't powerful enough to do all three at the same time, and Tarkin did not want to compromise on firepower at all, so the shields were slashed. The DS2 had a much more powerful reactor, and had it been completed, would have not had the same recharge and shielding issues.

I suspected he was referring to General Order 24, but I wanted him to say it. Because that isn't destroying a planet. It's destroying a planetary civilization.

And there is zero evidence that they've lost this capability in the TNG era. They've just gotten to the point that they don't bother to threaten people with it due to changing social policies. And I think that's for the better.

If you want a nifty TNG example, we have the Chase, where the Klingon captain casually mentions that his ship destroyed the biosphere of one of the planets with part of the DNA puzzle so that no one else would be able to get a sample. While all involved were disgusted that he'd go to such lengths, not one person there called bullshit on his ability to do so. Notably his ability to do so quickly enough as to not significantly put him behind the other vessels involved in the titular "chase".

Interesting note about the old E-nil's shield to firepower issue.

Very funny with the time travel wank, but your future breifings will be useless the moment you act on them, the future is always in motion after all.



I know full well about hypergemoetry, and there is zero evidence that it applies to subspace like that. So there is no reason to assume they would require "infinite energy" to shield themselves from subspace transporters.


snipped trekwank



Which there is zero evidence that the Federation actually have any of these, or the ability to make them. Scans of Soren's weapons and the actions of a Founder infiltrator are not evidence in the slightest.



A) All scientists who made it died long ago, B) All files on it were erased long ago.

Obviously this would not make it impossible, but clearly not a simple matter to bring back, however.

C) It only interacts with matter, not energy, so planetary shields would stop it. (and no you won't be able to use your subspace beaming on them either) D) While the protomatter certainly didn't do the genesis planet any favours, the fact that it was formed from a nebula rather than an existing planet is much more likely to be the cause of it's destruction.



Handled on the main site, the fact that a few mere photon torpedoes were able to take out the wave means they would be pretty well useless.



Seriously? In some ways, this is almost as bad as those Halo nuts trying to activate the titular arrays as if they were an instant win. In other ways this is worse, since even if it worked then congrats, you just peformed an act worse than everything the Empire have ever done combined and are now more evil than they ever were. Provided of course that it works somehow, which again I have considerable doubts.



Nothing the Empire isn't used to, hell they can one up that by making Zombies, not just the fast-but-easy-to-kill Infected types (28 days later, Left 4 Dead, Will Smith's I Am Legend) or the slow-but-only-vulnerable-in-the-head types ( __ of the Dead ) But a combination of the two (fast and only vulnerable in the head) with additional capabilities (Commuinication, co-ordination, ability to opperate weapons, ships and equipment)



Again nothing the Empire isn't used to.



No, but it doesn't mean you do either.



Again how are you supposed to afford the tech in the kinds of quantities required to even try to deploy some of these alleged superweapons?



you'd think so but no, not unless it was at a really backwatter world. Even then you wouldn't get much out of it to make it worthwhile.


Nice try, but I was referring to the materials which ARE valuable but we still see being transported.



Hardly, simply explaining the multitude of levels where the plan breaks down.



Again nice try, I read through all of that but it was and still is, far from convincing. Even if you could get in touch with such privatters, even if you could afford some of their services/parts, hell even if you bought a hyperdrive. How do you expect to make use of one? Do you actually expect do all this with tiny freighters? Are you going to try to get a fleet ready of ships that have all the components needed (which honestly you might as well just try and buy some larger star wars ships) to use Hyperdrives?

Sorry but you don't have that kind of time, and contrary to what you might think, you could not hold out against the Empire.

Or, as Dinobot once said:

"If the future can be changed.......if these disks only record one path of all the myriad ways the cosmos might conform.....then their power is infinite! And yet limited....for they could be used but once, and in that change be rendered fiction forever more....."

Of course, that forgets the fact that I can get more than one future briefing. The future is always in motion, but so are my intelligence agents.

You're the one who described it as applying like that.

I was originally going with the infinite domains angle described by Geordi LaForge in the episode where the crew are being abducted by aliens, as being akin to a honeycomb with an infinite number of cells.

May I see your Thrawn quote indicating that subspace is completely and perfectly shielded in all domains? Because I think the description given in that scene would clear a lot of this up.

Also known as canon capabilities that you like to pretend don't exist.

Except you don't make treaties to ban nonexistent weapons.

No, but the fact that federation scientists have blown up stars on accident, and successfully ignited dead ones suggests that they've got the stellar engineering knowhow anyway.

Welcome to another of the great uses for time travel. There is no such thing as lost technology.

Yes I can, but there's really no reason I have to.

Hire a smuggler to bring a small box down to a planet for me.

You're right. Guess that means I'll have to settle for reformatting the target planet's entire biosphere to my exact specifications and make it ripe for colonization. Oh, boo hoo.

If they catch it as early as the Big E did, sure. Trouble is, you don't fire it at anyone from point blank range.

You clearly didn't read anything past the titles of these, since I directly address that in the post. Of course, we don't want to use the damn thing, but there's no point having this discussion about appropriate force if we don't put all our capabilities on the table.

Maybe you misunderstood the point of Q's little demonstration.

Zombies are actually pretty shitty as a bioweapon. Something with a long gestation period and a high mortality rate does a far better job, since you don't have to rely on idiots letting themselves get bit to spread it.

They're used to weapons with a mutilightyear explosive range?

Like I said, it's hard to take your insults about my argument seriously when you make it so clear you haven't even bothered to read the post.

I need to afford to book passage to one planet for any given planetary-destruction event. That's actually pretty cheep even if I have to give away a Voyager shuttlecraft for every attack.

Considering Darth Vader still hasn't got his replacement lungs in yet, and he's got the best medical care the Empire can afford, I think we've got plenty to offer.

Also, we have competent obstetricians.

And?

It's not like they knew this was a possibility before the Riker incident came to light. After that point, we see more shuttle missions to transport cargo. Coincidence?

Let me know when you get to one of those levels.

Again, I book passage on passenger-ships in Wars (which we all know are common enough to be treated like busses anyway, Wars has so many privately held ships to spare). The people sent identify the Rebellion and sell weapons to them. If the Rebellion has been magicked out of existence by the versus, we start fomenting rebellion ourselves by booking passage with freighters for a handful of weapons to blow up enough shipyards and Stormtrooper training worlds to put the scent of blood in the water for the Empire's many dissidents.

Cost isn't that prohibitively expensive, especially not if we send a tallented young doctor with them who can trade his services (which are far superior to the incompetent quacks in the target galaxy) for local currency, while making the lives of the natives better along the way.

You still haven't come up with a defense against my main planetary protection grid. I've got all the time in the world so long as I'm content to let the rest of the universe burn while preparing for the counterattack.

Again with this nonsense, you could never keep up with that kind of information, time travel or not. Especially since we are talking about time travel ONLY for intel, not for making any changes to your own timeline. Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't work on the gunports even if you did know when they would come up, since you wouldn't be able to beam something in that short of a window.



No I didn't, I simply stated that even if you try to go "around" it by using more domains, you would still have to try to get back to it by going through a domain the shields extend through.



Honestly I don't remember the exact quote, but the subspace shielding does prevent subspace communications around the ship, which would thus block such transporters.



Sorry but you may think of them as impressive, but they aren't.



Except you don't make treaties to ban nonexistent weapons.
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Yes you do, to prevent their development.



We've been over this on other threads, the star that blew up was very unusual, and what applied to it doesn't necessarily apply to a regular one. And reigniting a dead star does not mean they can cause a main sequence one to go supernova.



A) All scientists who made it died long ago, B) All files on it were erased long ago.

Obviously this would not make it impossible, but clearly not a simple matter to bring back, however.
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Welcome to another of the great uses for time travel. There is no such thing as lost technology.
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Again that would still take time to implement and make use of the info gathered from the past you don't have infinite time since you can't just travel back to make more.


Yes I can, but there's really no reason I have to.

Hire a smuggler to bring a small box down to a planet for me.
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No you can't, and it would take more than just a "small box" to do so.



Again, it won't get past theatre shields and the like, so even if you somehow managed to smuggle one onto the planet (which is itself unlikely), it would only be a glorified terrorist attack on some of the civilian populace. meanwhile the shielded military sections that the smuggler would NOT be able to infiltrate remain unaffected.



Handled on the main site, the fact that a few mere photon torpedoes were able to take out the wave means they would be pretty well useless.
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If they catch it as early as the Big E did, sure. Trouble is, you don't fire it at anyone from point blank range.
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What you don't realize that the Empire would see that coming in more than enough time to react?



Seriously? In some ways, this is almost as bad as those Halo nuts trying to activate the titular arrays as if they were an instant win. In other ways this is worse, since even if it worked then congrats, you just peformed an act worse than everything the Empire have ever done combined and are now more evil than they ever were.
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You clearly didn't read anything past the titles of these, since I directly address that in the post. Of course, we don't want to use the damn thing, but there's no point having this discussion about appropriate force if we don't put all our capabilities on the table.
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Oh but I did, and I have to say I find it amusing that you give Trek Hyperdrives but claim that the Empire won't be able to Warp


Maybe you misunderstood the point of Q's little demonstration.


Except Blackwing Zombies don't work the way regular ones do, and can go places traditional Bioweapons can't (through NBC protected areas by blasting through them) they can also stun everyone they come across and THEN bite them, remember these aren't your daddy's Zombies, they can operate heavy weapons. It's less like a traditional Zombie apocalypse and more like your own people turning against you.

Conventional Biogenic weapons are also common, Xizor's family was killed by a testing of one.



Again nothing the Empire isn't used to.
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They're used to weapons with a mutilightyear explosive range?
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The ability to spread trace amounts of nanoprobes over a wide area is hardly impressive.



No, but it doesn't mean you do either.
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Like I said, it's hard to take your insults about my argument seriously when you make it so clear you haven't even bothered to read the post.
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Oh I have, that you think otherwise just shows how many invalid points you think are valid, that I felt weren't even worth commenting on.



Again how are you supposed to afford the tech in the kinds of quantities required to even try to deploy some of these alleged superweapons?
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I need to afford to book passage to one planet for any given planetary-destruction event. That's actually pretty cheep even if I have to give away a Voyager shuttlecraft for every attack.
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Uh, no. For the reasons explained before, and how exactly would the Empire NOT notice all these little arrangements? Since you aren't going to be able to use Time Travel to book them all at once.



you'd think so but no, not unless it was at a really backwatter world. Even then you wouldn't get much out of it to make it worthwhile.
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Considering Darth Vader still hasn't got his replacement lungs in yet, and he's got the best medical care the Empire can afford, I think we've got plenty to offer.

[/quote] You've never read "Dark Lord" have you? Vader's cybernetic parts help him with the Dark Side, and cloning/replicating Force sensitive tissue is a bad, bad idea.


Nice try, but I was referring to the materials which ARE valuable but we still see being transported.
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And?

It's not like they knew this was a possibility before the Riker incident came to light. After that point, we see more shuttle missions to transport cargo. Coincidence?
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Yes, because if it was possible we would see less, as they would use the transporter to replicate the formerly valuable materials. Or are you actually trying to argue that they only use shuttle missions to transport cargo as the only "valuable" materials left are ones that cannot be transported? If so then again, nice try, but we still see valuable materials being transported long after the Riker incident with no sign of any devaluing.


Let me know when you get to one of those levels.
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I have, and continue to do so, you simply refuse to accept the facts.



Which would then have to run the gammut of Imperial security on their most important worlds, especially giving deliveries that aren't scheduled, Your future intel isn't going to help you in areas you can't even get to.

Snipped Trekwank and Warshate trolling.

It is if you want to do anything more than be a minor nuisance.



Again no defence is needed, the planetary protection grid would be useless against the Imperial Ships. The federation would cease to exist within hours at most. Your Future Intel would only allow you to see some of it coming, doesn't mean you can stop it.

What the hell I can't edit my post, even though I accidentally hit "submit" instead of "preview"

But I can edit this one... was the timeframe to edit posts reduced dramatically recently?