Your in charge of the Federation or the Empire

[Panzersharkcat]

Considering Darth Vader still hasn't got his replacement lungs in yet, and he's got the best medical care the Empire can afford, I think we've got plenty to offer.

Considering that Palpatine deliberately gave Vader shitty outdated gear to better control him, he's hardly the best example of medical care in the Empire. See the difference between how slow Vader can be to the agility and speed of General Grievous.

Also, we have competent obstetricians.

One incompetent robot in the ass end of nowhere does not set the standard for the rest of the galaxy.

An apt analogy for the technological, size, and industrial gap in a war between the Federation and the Empire would be to imagine the Empire as the Batmobile and the Federation as a large bug splattering on its windshields. (The Borg would maybe be a large beaver. Why a beaver? It's a funny name. Beaver beaver beaver.)

[Cesario]

Or, as Dinobot once said:

"If the future can be changed.......if these disks only record one path of all the myriad ways the cosmos might conform.....then their power is infinite! And yet limited....for they could be used but once, and in that change be rendered fiction forever more....."

Of course, that forgets the fact that I can get more than one future briefing. The future is always in motion, but so are my intelligence agents.

Again with this nonsense,

If you don't understand something, you can just ask questions. I'm not going to bite your head off for trying to resolve your own ignorance.

you could never keep up with that kind of information, time travel or not.

Automation is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Program the firecontrol ahead of time based on when and where the enemy is going to appear, and we can just sit back and watch the fireworks.

Especially since we are talking about time travel ONLY for intel, not for making any changes to your own timeline.

Why would that have any impact on my ability to keep up with my own reports?

Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't work on the gunports even if you did know when they would come up, since you wouldn't be able to beam something in that short of a window.

What's the window, exactly? We'll compare it to what we can do with proper prep time based on planetary evacuation examples.

You're the one who described it as applying like that.

No I didn't, I simply stated that even if you try to go "around" it by using more domains, you would still have to try to get back to it by going through a domain the shields extend through.

Like I said, you described subspace as a layered domain like my 3D hypergeometry explaination instead of the honeycombed domain analogy that was actually described in Trek.

May I see your Thrawn quote indicating that subspace is completely and perfectly shielded in all domains? Because I think the description given in that scene would clear a lot of this up.

Honestly I don't remember the exact quote, but the subspace shielding does prevent subspace communications around the ship, which would thus block such transporters.

Gee, if only there were some stuff in Trek that could block subspace communication that was known to the crew of the Enterprise. According to your unassailable analysis if they had something like that, they wouldn't have needed to whip up a subspace transporter to save Picard's supposed son.

It's too bad absolutely noting ever encountered in the whole of the Star Trek universe has ever been able to jam their standard communications, isn't it?

Also known as canon capabilities that you like to pretend don't exist.

Sorry but you may think of them as impressive, but they aren't.

Good thing it isn't you I have to impress. It's the Rebel alliance and the Empire, who aren't nearly as used to suns blowing up, time unravelling, and biospheres being wiped out in seconds by a device that'll fit in a suitcase.

Except you don't make treaties to ban nonexistent weapons.

Yes you do, to prevent their development.

So where are our current treaties against antimatter bombs and strangelet weapons?

No, but the fact that federation scientists have blown up stars on accident, and successfully ignited dead ones suggests that they've got the stellar engineering knowhow anyway.

We've been over this on other threads, the star that blew up was very unusual, and what applied to it doesn't necessarily apply to a regular one. And reigniting a dead star does not mean they can cause a main sequence one to go supernova.

Don't need it to go supernova. Just need it to go out. That should be plenty impressive to cow the people in the Empire. Especially since there was a serious military doctrine that superweapons capable of blowing up mere planets would keep the entire population in line with whatever force controled it.

Welcome to another of the great uses for time travel. There is no such thing as lost technology.

Again that would still take time to implement and make use of the info gathered from the past you don't have infinite time since you can't just travel back to make more.

There's a difference between "not interested in doing so" and "can't".

Yes I can, but there's really no reason I have to.

Hire a smuggler to bring a small box down to a planet for me.

No you can't, and it would take more than just a "small box" to do so.

Did you see the Genesis device? I'm not talking something the size of a palm pilot here. Small is relative when you're hiring space freighters.

You're right. Guess that means I'll have to settle for reformatting the target planet's entire biosphere to my exact specifications and make it ripe for colonization. Oh, boo hoo.

Again, it won't get past theatre shields and the like, so even if you somehow managed to smuggle one onto the planet (which is itself unlikely), it would only be a glorified terrorist attack on some of the civilian populace. meanwhile the shielded military sections that the smuggler would NOT be able to infiltrate remain unaffected.

Now that all depends on what I reformat the biosphere into, don't you think? Remember, we don't have to reformat it into something pleasant for their technology. Transforming their planets into Death Worlds seems a perfectly valid use of the techonology, assuming your premise that the resulting worlds will remain stable instead of blowing up after a few weeks like the Genesis planet.

Ignoring, of course, the fact that the shielded ships in TWoK had to get the hell out of dodge to avoid being taken out by the Genesis effect.

Handled on the main site, the fact that a few mere photon torpedoes were able to take out the wave means they would be pretty well useless.

If they catch it as early as the Big E did, sure. Trouble is, you don't fire it at anyone from point blank range.

What you don't realize that the Empire would see that coming in more than enough time to react?

How? No-limits precog wank?

Seriously? In some ways, this is almost as bad as those Halo nuts trying to activate the titular arrays as if they were an instant win. In other ways this is worse, since even if it worked then congrats, you just peformed an act worse than everything the Empire have ever done combined and are now more evil than they ever were.

You clearly didn't read anything past the titles of these, since I directly address that in the post. Of course, we don't want to use the damn thing, but there's no point having this discussion about appropriate force if we don't put all our capabilities on the table.

Oh but I did, and I have to say I find it amusing that you give Trek Hyperdrives but claim that the Empire won't be able to Warp

When did I give Trek hyperdrives? Read.

I'm not planning on buying ships, or hyjacking freighters. I'm just hiring the existing civilian cargo transports in the Wars universe to deliver my little presents.

Provided of course that it works somehow, which again I have considerable doubts.

Maybe you misunderstood the point of Q's little demonstration.

I'm referring to the idea of you somehow managing to succeed without the Empire stopping you,

The empire has no means of stopping this. I initiate one beam at any point I desire in their entire galaxy, prefferably somewhere in deep space no one ever bothered to map a hyperspace route to. Then I warp over to a nearby star and go back in time. Now my ship is at a point before anyone knew the Federation existed. Then I initiate another beam, repeat the process a third time, rupturing the barrier between normal time and antitime and wiping out the enemy Galaxy's entire history.

Tell me, if they can magically know where my ship is, why didn't they use that precision clarvoyance to identify the location of the rebel base?

and it not having any deleterious effects that would force you to undo it.

I did note precisely how we can know ahead of time if it will have any such deleterious effects. But again, I also noted that we probably won't be bringing this one to table for our own reasons.

Zombies are actually pretty shitty as a bioweapon. Something with a long gestation period and a high mortality rate does a far better job, since you don't have to rely on idiots letting themselves get bit to spread it.

Except Blackwing Zombies don't work the way regular ones do, and can go places traditional Bioweapons can't (through NBC protected areas by blasting through them) they can also stun everyone they come across and THEN bite them, remember these aren't your daddy's Zombies, they can operate heavy weapons. It's less like a traditional Zombie apocalypse and more like your own people turning against you.

Conventional Biogenic weapons are also common, Xizor's family was killed by a testing of one.

So basically, you whipped up a weaker variant of the borg and thought it was clever.

Me, I'll stick with a long incubation period airborn agent that can filter through your many interconnected trade routes infecting too many systems for an effective quarenteen before it's symptoms are noticed.

Ignoring some of the more exotic variants we can whip up in Trek with the resources of a small outpost lab.

Again nothing the Empire isn't used to.

They're used to weapons with a mutilightyear explosive range?

The ability to spread trace amounts of nanoprobes over a wide area is hardly impressive.

"Trace amounts" that are still actually sufficient to serve as a weapon is.

No, but it doesn't mean you do either.

Like I said, it's hard to take your insults about my argument seriously when you make it so clear you haven't even bothered to read the post.

Oh I have, that you think otherwise just shows how many invalid points you think are valid, that I felt weren't even worth commenting on.

It isn't what you didn't think worth commenting on that gives your illiteracy away. It's what you did comment on.

Again how are you supposed to afford the tech in the kinds of quantities required to even try to deploy some of these alleged superweapons?

I need to afford to book passage to one planet for any given planetary-destruction event. That's actually pretty cheep even if I have to give away a Voyager shuttlecraft for every attack.

Uh, no. For the reasons explained before, and how exactly would the Empire NOT notice all these little arrangements? Since you aren't going to be able to use Time Travel to book them all at once.

This may come as a surprise to you, but the Empire is big.

They canonically don't have an effective police force that can deal with something as huge as the Rebel Alliance. And I'm much smaller than that.

Sure, after the fact they might eventually work out that I've been hiring smugglers and freighters to ship weapons into place to blow up their production facilities, mutate their stormtroopes into dinosaurs, and broadcast pictures of Medusans across their Holonet, but in the end, what are they going to do about it? Shut down all civilian shipping in their entire galaxy?

you'd think so but no, not unless it was at a really backwatter world. Even then you wouldn't get much out of it to make it worthwhile.

Considering Darth Vader still hasn't got his replacement lungs in yet, and he's got the best medical care the Empire can afford, I think we've got plenty to offer.

You've never read "Dark Lord" have you? Vader's cybernetic parts help him with the Dark Side,

So you're saying Darth Vader is stronger after he's broken and put in the suit than he was before? Because everything I've read (here, for that matter) and everything I've seen in the movies tells me the exact oposite is true.

and cloning/replicating Force sensitive tissue is a bad, bad idea.

You've never tried replicating, so how would you know?

Besides, wasn't this "cloning" worry of yours a problem with making full body clones, not spare parts? (Not to mention more related to the "quick" growth process of the clones than the fact that they were clones themselves.)

But really, if you could make spare parts to begin with, why would they give Luke a cyborg hand? They wouldn't have known about the cloning problem at the time, since at that point, the Galaxy is living in a scientific dark age and people don't believe in the Force, much less have access to detailed records about how obscure medical procedures interact with it?

Nice try, but I was referring to the materials which ARE valuable but we still see being transported.

And?

It's not like they knew this was a possibility before the Riker incident came to light. After that point, we see more shuttle missions to transport cargo. Coincidence?

Yes, because if it was possible we would see less, as they would use the transporter to replicate the formerly valuable materials. Or are you actually trying to argue that they only use shuttle missions to transport cargo as the only "valuable" materials left are ones that cannot be transported? If so then again, nice try, but we still see valuable materials being transported long after the Riker incident with no sign of any devaluing.

Why would you see signs of devaluing when we're living in a society that's given up currency-based economics given how small a window we're looking in on it through?

Besides, I'm saying the technology has proven it's ability to do this, not that they've implemented a program to actually make use of this discovery yet. But since I'm in charge for the purposes of this versus, I can tell them to do so, and damn the economic and diplomatic consequences with the neighboring powers and trading partners.

Let me know when you get to one of those levels.

I have, and continue to do so, you simply refuse to accept the facts.

When you come up with a "fact" that doesn't rely on ignoring canon capabilities, we'll talk.

Again, I book passage on passenger-ships in Wars (which we all know are common enough to be treated like busses anyway, Wars has so many privately held ships to spare).

Which would then have to run the gammut of Imperial security on their most important worlds, especially giving deliveries that aren't scheduled, Your future intel isn't going to help you in areas you can't even get to.

Sure it will. When we're deciding which smuggler to hire, it'll tell us which one actually turned out to be good enough to pull off the job.

Cost isn't that prohibitively expensive

Snipped Trekwank and Warshate trolling.

It is if you want to do anything more than be a minor nuisance.

I don't need to be more than a minor nuisance. Remember, my plan relies on the canon fact that the Empire is a shitty place to live where a ton of people are dissatisfied with it. All it takes is a minor nuisance and a couple symbolic victories to get the factions within the Empire's own borders to start fighting back against their oppressors. When that happens, the Empire will have bigger things to worry about than me, because their fleets will be needed to keep the peace back in their own galaxy.

Although, I guess they could keep sending ships to get blown up by my defense grid. That'll make it even easier for the Rebels to make a regime change.

You still haven't come up with a defense against my main planetary protection grid. I've got all the time in the world so long as I'm content to let the rest of the universe burn while preparing for the counterattack.

Again no defense is needed, the planetary protection grid would be useless against the Imperial Ships. The federation would cease to exist within hours at most. Your Future Intel would only allow you to see some of it coming, doesn't mean you can stop it.

You wouldn't even be able to figure out where our worlds are within hours, let alone coordinate a multisystem attack like that with a fleet you barely control yourself.

And again you still haven't presented a single reason my many shield and armor ignoring delivery systems will be ineffective when your ships are so focused on brute power they'll never even notice that an exotic attack was underway to begin to think of coming up with a defense.

What the hell I can't edit my post, even though I accidentally hit "submit" instead of "preview"

But I can edit this one... was the timeframe to edit posts reduced dramatically recently?

The edit window is deliberately small to prevent dishonest shitheads from going back and rewriting their past posts to disrupt the conversation. Learn better use of quote tags in the first place and you won't have this problem.

Considering Darth Vader still hasn't got his replacement lungs in yet, and he's got the best medical care the Empire can afford, I think we've got plenty to offer.

Considering that Palpatine deliberately gave Vader shitty outdated gear to better control him, he's hardly the best example of medical care in the Empire.

Except that if he were in Trek, he could go to someone who didn't spend every waking moment finding new ways to be a dick to him, and get someone other than Palpetine to fix him. Too bad Palpetine has utterly crippled medical science in his entire Galaxy just to keep Darth Vader from getting better medical treatment, but that still means my doctors' skills will be of value.

See the difference between how slow Vader can be to the agility and speed of General Grievous.

Because it's impossible that Grievous was just a member of a species who's more compatible with Wars cybertech.

Also, we have competent obstetricians.

One incompetent robot in the ass end of nowhere does not set the standard for the rest of the galaxy.

No, but said incompetent robot in the ass end of nowhere was still employed. Means I can still trade my people's medical skills for local currency.

Show me an example of Wars curing accute lizardification and we'll talk about how outdated and useless my doctor's skills are.

An apt analogy for the technological, size, and industrial gap in a war between the Federation and the Empire would be to imagine the Empire as the Batmobile and the Federation as a large bug splattering on its windshields. (The Borg would maybe be a large beaver. Why a beaver? It's a funny name. Beaver beaver beaver.)

Only if you define "technological" as "power generation tech". Look at what both sides can actually do, and you'll see a very different picture.

[Eternal_Freedom]

[quote="Ceasrio"]Ignoring, of course, the fact that the shielded ships in TWoK had to get the hell out of dodge to avoid being taken out by the Genesis effect. [/i]

Minor nitpick here, but the E-Nil was not shielded when it had to flee the Genesis Device. That was the whole point of heading into the Mutara Nebula, to remove the advantage that the shieleded Reliant had over the unshielded Enterprise.

[Panzersharkcat]

Except that if he were in Trek, he could go to someone who didn't spend every waking moment finding new ways to be a dick to him, and get someone other than Palpetine to fix him. Too bad Palpatine has utterly crippled medical science in his entire Galaxy just to keep Darth Vader from getting better medical treatment, but that still means my doctors' skills will be of value.

Proof Palpatine sabotaged medical science? Just because he deliberately gave Vader shitty armor and it's risky to transfer to a better suit, which he has been offered, does not mean he somehow crippled it.

Because it's impossible that Grievous was just a member of a species who's more compatible with Wars cybertech.

*raised eyebrow* Whatever. It still gives a good idea of what kind of medical tech is needed to keep those organs alive and healthy between body transfers.

No, but said incompetent robot in the ass end of nowhere was still employed. Means I can still trade my people's medical skills for local currency.

Because there are no incompetent doctors in Trek ever. That outlier does not reflect on the rest of the galaxy any more than some idiot doctor in Bumfuck, Alabama would reflect on American medical technology.

Show me an example of Wars curing accute lizardification and we'll talk about how outdated and useless my doctor's skills are.

Threshold was retarded and rendered non-canon, anyway. I assume that's the episode you're referring to.

Only if you define "technological" as "power generation tech". Look at what both sides can actually do, and you'll see a very different picture.

I see a civilization with far better engineering and materials science than the Federation. It takes some very strong materials to build something the size of the Death Star, nonetheless something like the Executor or the Eclipse. There goes your claim of it being only power generation tech.

[Cesario]

Ignoring, of course, the fact that the shielded ships in TWoK had to get the hell out of dodge to avoid being taken out by the Genesis effect.

Minor nitpick here, but the E-Nil was not shielded when it had to flee the Genesis Device. That was the whole point of heading into the Mutara Nebula, to remove the advantage that the shieleded Reliant had over the unshielded Enterprise.

My mistake. Conceeded.

[Cesario]

Except that if he were in Trek, he could go to someone who didn't spend every waking moment finding new ways to be a dick to him, and get someone other than Palpetine to fix him. Too bad Palpatine has utterly crippled medical science in his entire Galaxy just to keep Darth Vader from getting better medical treatment, but that still means my doctors' skills will be of value.

Proof Palpatine sabotaged medical science?

You're right, of course. It's entirely possible medical science in Star Wars was just shitty enough from the beginning that Vader couldn't find any better replacements than the shit Palpetine deliberately crippled him with.

Just because he deliberately gave Vader shitty armor and it's risky to transfer to a better suit, which he has been offered, does not mean he somehow crippled it.

Risky with Wars medical tech, maybe.

Because it's impossible that Grievous was just a member of a species who's more compatible with Wars cybertech.

*raised eyebrow* Whatever. It still gives a good idea of what kind of medical tech is needed to keep those organs alive and healthy between body transfers.

Yep, it's a real challenge for Wars doctors.

No, but said incompetent robot in the ass end of nowhere was still employed. Means I can still trade my people's medical skills for local currency.

Because there are no incompetent doctors in Trek ever. That outlier does not reflect on the rest of the galaxy any more than some idiot doctor in Bumfuck, Alabama would reflect on American medical technology.

Again, doesn't change anything, since our doctors have skills that are valuable in the economy Wars is running. Even if we accept that literally every doctor ever seen in the Star Wars movies is an incompetent quack by the standards of what Star Wars "really" works like, that doesn't change the fact that said incompetent quacks were presumably still getting paid, meaning so can my far superior doctors.

Show me an example of Wars curing accute lizardification and we'll talk about how outdated and useless my doctor's skills are.

Threshold was retarded and rendered non-canon, anyway. I assume that's the episode you're referring to.

We cured Lizardification in Spot the cat long before Threshold made it an issue. The episode that inspired Threshold also saw a cure for acute spiderfication.

Ridiculous medical super science like this isn't a one-shot outlier in Trek.

Though you've taken an odd approach to canon to remove the episode. (Not saying it wasn't a shitty episode and the infinite improbability drive being removed from the debate makes a lot of sense in terms of motivation. Just saying that Paris saying he's never traveled Transwarp when we're referring to an entirely different application that's simply also called transwarp is going out a good distance to pretend it's been excised from canon.)

Only if you define "technological" as "power generation tech". Look at what both sides can actually do, and you'll see a very different picture.

I see a civilization with far better engineering and materials science than the Federation. It takes some very strong materials to build something the size of the Death Star, nonetheless something like the Executor or the Eclipse. There goes your claim of it being only power generation tech.

Yep, they've got access to stronger materials too. Because that and reactor cores are the end-all-be-all of technology.

[Connor MacLeod]

That's pretty much what the tensor fields on starships are supposed to do as I recall.

[Panzersharkcat]

You're right, of course. It's entirely possible medical science in Star Wars was just shitty enough from the beginning that Vader couldn't find any better replacements than the shit Palpetine deliberately crippled him with.

Or you're just talking out of your ass. There were better suits available but there were risks involved like removing all of his goddamn life support aka his whole damn suit.

Again, doesn't change anything, since our doctors have skills that are valuable in the economy Wars is running. Even if we accept that literally every doctor ever seen in the Star Wars movies is an incompetent quack by the standards of what Star Wars "really" works like, that doesn't change the fact that said incompetent quacks were presumably still getting paid, meaning so can my far superior doctors.

Bah. Fine. Blah blah blah comparative advantage and all that even if Trek doctors had less advanced tech.

We cured Lizardification in Spot the cat long before Threshold made it an issue. The episode that inspired Threshold also saw a cure for acute spiderfication.

Ridiculous medical super science like this isn't a one-shot outlier in Trek.

Fine. Conceding the point that they do weird things on occasion.

Though you've taken an odd approach to canon to remove the episode. (Not saying it wasn't a shitty episode and the infinite improbability drive being removed from the debate makes a lot of sense in terms of motivation. Just saying that Paris saying he's never traveled Transwarp when we're referring to an entirely different application that's simply also called transwarp is going out a good distance to pretend it's been excised from canon.)

I got the impression Threshold was excised from canon. That could just be me being much less familiar with Trek than Wars or Fallout, though. I am primarily a Fallout person.

Yep, they've got access to stronger materials too. Because that and reactor cores are the end-all-be-all of technology.

That are relatively rarely used, hence the Enterprise sagging in Earth gravity without structural integrity fields. Ridiculously common sentient androids (though Trek AI is nothing to sneeze at), lightsabers, duplicators, superior inertial dampeners, faster FTL, bacta.

Anyway, I should probably shut up since I suck at this sort of thing. Seriously, if I had been placed in charge of prosecuting Hermann Goering for war crimes, I would somehow manage to lose. I'm that bad at arguing and debate.

[Cesario]

You're right, of course. It's entirely possible medical science in Star Wars was just shitty enough from the beginning that Vader couldn't find any better replacements than the shit Palpetine deliberately crippled him with.

Or you're just talking out of your ass. There were better suits available but there were risks involved like removing all of his goddamn life support aka his whole damn suit.

Gee, if only he had some sort of giant black pod where he could take the suit off (in whole or in part) and not die. Then they could swap those parts out safely inside that pod.

Too bad we never see anything like that in any canon material.

Again, doesn't change anything, since our doctors have skills that are valuable in the economy Wars is running. Even if we accept that literally every doctor ever seen in the Star Wars movies is an incompetent quack by the standards of what Star Wars "really" works like, that doesn't change the fact that said incompetent quacks were presumably still getting paid, meaning so can my far superior doctors.

Bah. Fine. Blah blah blah comparative advantage and all that even if Trek doctors had less advanced tech.

We cured Lizardification in Spot the cat long before Threshold made it an issue. The episode that inspired Threshold also saw a cure for acute spiderfication.

Ridiculous medical super science like this isn't a one-shot outlier in Trek.

Fine. Conceding the point that they do weird things on occasion.

That's very big of you.

Though you've taken an odd approach to canon to remove the episode. (Not saying it wasn't a shitty episode and the infinite improbability drive being removed from the debate makes a lot of sense in terms of motivation. Just saying that Paris saying he's never traveled Transwarp when we're referring to an entirely different application that's simply also called transwarp is going out a good distance to pretend it's been excised from canon.)

I got the impression Threshold was excised from canon. That could just be me being much less familiar with Trek than Wars or Fallout, though. I am primarily a Fallout person.

When looking for the "excised from canon" thing about Threshold, all I can ever find is the writers calling it a piece of shit, and Paris stating later that he never traveled at transwarp.

Neither of those things are actually a means of excising something from canon. Though if there is something more than that, I would like to hear about it.

Yep, they've got access to stronger materials too. Because that and reactor cores are the end-all-be-all of technology.

That are relatively rarely used, hence the Enterprise sagging in Earth gravity without structural integrity fields.

Um, I was giving you the Empire's stronger materials for the sake of moving on with the argument, not trying to claim that the Federation has better in this area. (I didn't think it a point worth bothering with either way.)

Ridiculously common sentient androids (though Trek AI is nothing to sneeze at),

Are we actually sure they're sentient? I got the impression a lot of time and effort was put in (regarding regular maintenence) to keep them from becoming sentient.

(We see similar events a number of times in Trek, but when a machine crosses that line in Trek, the characters generally don't just wipe it's memory and move on with their lives. (Damn you Janeway!))

lightsabers,

I believe the appropriate TVTropes page would be "awesome but impractical".

Look at all the grief the Klingons get for even having melee weapons in a setting with guns. Without the very specific force techniques the Jedi have, lightsabers are pretty useless.

Hence why even in Wars, only Jedi (or their antagonists) ever bother using the damn things.

duplicators,

I keep hearing about these things. Are there any more details about how these replicator knock-offs work? Do they simply act as advanced rabid prototypers more akin to what we have today, or are they the same kind of molecular assemblers we see routinely used in Trek to fetch tea?

Honest question, as I'd never run across them in my Star Wars experience.

superior inertial dampeners,

I'm going to need some evidence on that one.

faster FTL,

No argument here, however. That one seems pretty well locked up.

bacta.

You're still making the mistake of assuming your medical tech is at all impressive by Trek standards. Suspending someone in a tub of warm goo to cure his hypothermia is not a highly advanced feat.

Seriously, though, what can Bacta do? People keep saying the name like it means a goddamn thing on its own. We know there are plenty of injuries it can't heal. Including some that could be cleaned up with the most commonly used tool in the Starfleet medical arsonel, the dermal regenerator.

If bacta were half as omnipotent as the people who quote the name in awe suggest, Vader wouldn't have needed the suit to begin with. They could just dump what was left of him a a bacta tank and everything would be fine.

Anyway, I should probably shut up since I suck at this sort of thing. Seriously, if I had been placed in charge of prosecuting Hermann Goering for war crimes, I would somehow manage to lose. I'm that bad at arguing and debate.

Don't be hard on yourself. You thought you had a solid case, it turned out you weren't on as solid of ground as you thought. The weakness of the position you chose doesn't reflect on your skills in prosecuting the debate.

[Panzersharkcat]

Don't be hard on yourself. You thought you had a solid case, it turned out you weren't on as solid of ground as you thought. The weakness of the position you chose doesn't reflect on your skills in prosecuting the debate.

Thank you. I'm just going to concede my whole argument. I really am not that good at debate, though, especially in person. It really did not help here that the only firsthand stuff I really know of Trek outside of Memory Alpha and the main site was the first season of TOS and a few scattered episodes of Voyager where I barely paid attention in favor of making fun of the plot or poor phaser designs with my brother (I was twelve or something when that happened). In that season, there was a cure developed for a plague that had wiped out all adolescents and adults on a planet developed in a very short period of time. (Of course, they really should have worn full body environmental suits while down there in case of unknown diseases but McCoy's awesomeness was demonstrated pretty clearly).

[Ryag Han]

I keep hearing about these things. Are there any more details about how these replicator knock-offs work? Do they simply act as advanced rabid prototypers more akin to what we have today, or are they the same kind of molecular assemblers we see routinely used in Trek to fetch tea?

Honest question, as I'd never run across them in my Star Wars experience.

according to wookieepedia, they "recreate any object that was first digitized by a prototyper." apperently, they are kinda of a hybrid.

I'm going to need some evidence on that one.

i don't think their superior, but i think what he is basing this on is the very sharp maneuvers of starfighters...i think.

You're still making the mistake of assuming your medical tech is at all impressive by Trek standards. Suspending someone in a tub of warm goo to cure his hypothermia is not a highly advanced feat.

well no, it isn't.

Seriously, though, what can Bacta do? People keep saying the name like it means a goddamn thing on its own. We know there are plenty of injuries it can't heal. Including some that could be cleaned up with the most commonly used tool in the Starfleet medical arsonel, the dermal regenerator.

well for starters, it can heal very fast, leaving no scars. second, it can heal almost any species, and you don't need any knowledge of the patients biology. that can be quite helpful if you never saw the species before.

If bacta were half as omnipotent as the people who quote the name in awe suggest, Vader wouldn't have needed the suit to begin with. They could just dump what was left of him a a bacta tank and everything would be fine.

well no. even if Vader would have been put in a bacta tank, he would still have no freaking limbs, heavy lung damage, and would probably be left lame for the rest of his life...Palpatine wanted him that way. Sith craziness or something. instead they put him into a badass suit that would sustain, something they would have to do anyway cuz he couldn't breath by himself very good. i dare trek technology to do any better. are they gonna grow his limbs back? his lungs? i don't think so.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In the X-Wing novels we see Bacta curing the Krytosplague in every species afflicted with it, and in a later book we see it repairing a crushed pelvis and severed spine simply by being immersed in it.

We also see it fixing blaster wounds amongst other things. The fact that you get healed by this stuff just by floating in it is impressive to say the least.

[Cesario]

I keep hearing about these things. Are there any more details about how these replicator knock-offs work? Do they simply act as advanced rabid prototypers more akin to what we have today, or are they the same kind of molecular assemblers we see routinely used in Trek to fetch tea?

Honest question, as I'd never run across them in my Star Wars experience.

according to wookieepedia, they "recreate any object that was first digitized by a prototyper." apperently, they are kinda of a hybrid.

Hm, if I'm reading that right, it seems that we're just talking a rabid manufacturer device. Though going by just one sentence fragment, it's a bit hard to tell, so I could be way off base.

Do we have any records of things these duplicators have put out? What's the most complex finished product we've seen come out of them? Are there material limits, and if so, what are they?

I'm very interested in this technology that I've seen only vaguely alluded to before.

You're still making the mistake of assuming your medical tech is at all impressive by Trek standards. Suspending someone in a tub of warm goo to cure his hypothermia is not a highly advanced feat.

well no, it isn't.

Based just on TESB, that's what I thought they were doing.

Does anyone know when did it get clarified as being magic healing juice they were suspending him in?

Seriously, though, what can Bacta do? People keep saying the name like it means a goddamn thing on its own. We know there are plenty of injuries it can't heal. Including some that could be cleaned up with the most commonly used tool in the Starfleet medical arsonel, the dermal regenerator.

well for starters, it can heal very fast, leaving no scars. second, it can heal almost any species, and you don't need any knowledge of the patients biology. that can be quite helpful if you never saw the species before.

So basically, it is no substitute for a good doctor, but it makes up for that by being versitile in the sorts of patients it can cure. That does sound useful.

If bacta were half as omnipotent as the people who quote the name in awe suggest, Vader wouldn't have needed the suit to begin with. They could just dump what was left of him a a bacta tank and everything would be fine.

well no. even if Vader would have been put in a bacta tank, he would still have no freaking limbs, heavy lung damage, and would probably be left lame for the rest of his life...Palpatine wanted him that way. Sith craziness or something. instead they put him into a badass suit that would sustain, something they would have to do anyway cuz he couldn't breath by himself very good. i dare trek technology to do any better. are they gonna grow his limbs back? his lungs? i don't think so.

They grew back Nog's leg, and the only reason they couldn't replicate Nelix a new pair of lungs (as was pointed out in the episode they were stolen) was that his species has a very unusual respiratory and immune system.

The Doctor specifically notes that this wouldn't be a problem if it had been one of the human crew members in this situation.

In the X-Wing novels we see Bacta curing the Krytosplague in every species afflicted with it, and in a later book we see it repairing a crushed pelvis and severed spine simply by being immersed in it.

We also see it fixing blaster wounds amongst other things. The fact that you get healed by this stuff just by floating in it is impressive to say the least.

Impressive to you and I, certainly. Impressive by the standards set by Trek medicine, not so much.

[Bakustra]

It became magic healing juice for the RPG, which was very creative in some respects and very uncreative in others.

[Stofsk]

In TOS he might though. Captain Pike shows they hadn't reached the TNG level yet.

Captain Pike wasn't limbless. He had suffered brain damage that affected his motor skills. His mind was as active as anyone else's, but 'he can't reach out and nobody can reach in'. McCoy said in that episode that they've learned to tie in to every organ in the body except for one - the brain. It's still the most complicated issue to medicine at that point.

[Cesario]

Blindness can also be cured in ST: Geordi's VISOR and the eye implants he considers a few times.

This one is of particular note, in that Geordi was born without optic nerves. He'd spent his entire life without vision, so this isn't as easy as restoring something that used to be functional.

(Which makes bits in All Good Things and Insurection make very little sense, mind you.)