31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Okay, here's some information that can be pulled together to get an idea of UFP-31's abilities.

Doug Drexler - who designed the ship, and is probably the best source we have - on the Enterprise-J:
Drexler saw the Enterprise-J "as a multi-generational vessel, that had large parks, entertainment zones, and entire universities on board. The ship is so large that turbolifts would be replaced with site to site transporters. [It] had one deflector, recognizably descended from the NX. I opted for spindly nacelle struts because I felt it suggested a technology beyond what we were familiar with. They are beyond transwarp. They can fold space, and they are exploring other galaxies besides the Milky Way." The doors shown in the corridors aboard the Enterprise-J appear to be the same used aboard Deep Space 9.
Note that the Enterprise-J is only a ship of the 26th Century. So the Federation is making transgalactic voyages by the 26th Century, and it's 5 centuries beyond that in this scenario. Also, site-to-site teleportation is considered a pretty economical way for moving about a ship. Big implications for industry there.

By the 25th Century, the Federation has reached the Delta Quadrant (so, very likely a galactic empire). By the 26th Century, the Federation has absorbed at least the Klingon Empire.

In the mid-twenties it appears as though Federation technology has the ability to destroy entire solar systems and halt nuclear fusion in stars. Whether they've weaponized any of this technology is unknown. By the 29th century, one technology which is clearly a standard armament is the temporal disruptor, of which a 'force-3' version will 'shatter spacetime' with a radius of 150 kilometers (it was going to be used to destroy Voyager, so it would appear as though shattering spacetime also shatters the stuff in it). It can also be planted 'out of phase' to prevent it from being disarmed by conventional means. The only one that has been seen was planted on a ship rather than being a torpedo or anything, but given that by this period they have temporal transporters that can teleport something virtually anywhere in space and time - and through conventional shields, as well, showing none of the finickiness or any evidence of any of the weaknesses of regular transporters - this isn't such a huge problem. I believe we have our Deathstar-killer. The only other piece of evidence we have for firepower from Star Trek's future that I'm aware of are the 24th-Century transphasic torpedos that can one-shot a Borg Cube. Oh, and I guess Red Matter, if they're into that sort of thing. But there's nothing concrete for the several centuries thereafter.

Time travel by the 31st Century is also "so commonplace that there are quantum discriminators in every high school desk."

Frankly, we don't know much. But from the vague sketch we have, even several hundred years before this match-up they're a transgalactic time-travelling magictech space empire. I think there's good reason to think they could take this, simply because I doubt the Empire has any defense at all against many of their technologies.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by keen320 »

Off topic: Now I wish they'd make a series about it. Although it sounds too complicated to get right, if they did, It'd be pretty awesome.

On topic (although maybe violating the "offensive time travel" rules, although I'm trying not to outright break them):
If they needed too, couldn't they plant agents all through the Rebel Alliance or Empire? Put agents a few years back in time, so they can rise through the ranks in either/both organizations by the time the confrontation occurs. They could then actively sabotage the Empire's war effort and feed information to the Rebels. Sabotage Imperial Star destroyers at the time of construction. Maybe they were responsible for making sure the Death Star 1 had that fatal flaw.

They could ally with the New Republic and offer to help it in it's past in exchange for tech they need. They could give themselves nearly infinite time to reverse engineer and implement Star Wars tech. Leave timed mines to go off at times during critical battles. They could get a hold of the Suncrusher and reverse engineer/use it. They could even use the Star Forge, if it would help them. They might be able to evacuate Alderaan just before it's destruction.

The possibilities are virtually endless, even without whatever their direct offensive capabilities are or a "kill Palpatine when he's a kid" solution. How do you defend against that level of time travel?

Please tell me which of these ideas would break the "offensive time travel" rules.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Batman »

I didn't know we had offensive time travel rules. It's generally assumed that Trek resorting to time travel is a tacit admission that they'd lose without it and that for most of their time travel they lose with it regardless but get to live happily ever after in a different timeline, but I'm not aware of any board rule actually prohibiting time travel being used (which would effectively forbid there being Whoniverse threads altogether).
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Purple »

Actually he is referring to the quote from the thread starter where he refers to the standard vs Dalek time travel rules. It's a set of rules we use to avoid debating about time travel as it really is just a massive unknown that no one can draw realistic conclusions about. In essence, they can be summed up as: No time travel is allowed, but any technology that uses time travel based principals to work is fine. So Dalek FTL that uses time travel is not allowed to travel through time but can still be used to travel through space. Or a temporal torpedo (what ever that is) works just fine but no faction can send agents back through time to mess with the past/future. And stuff like that.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Batman »

Wouldn't a simple 'no time travel' have sufficed then? Any technology that uses time travel under the hood so to speak but doesn't actually result in time travel isn't really time travel in my book.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

How about making the distinction "No time travel, but temporal technology (scanners, weapons, FTL etc) is permitted."
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by keen320 »

Oh well. I'd typed half of that post before I remembered those "rules." Also, it seemed kind of unfair they couldn't use such an important piece of tech to them when the Emperor gets to use magic powers.

Still, even temporal scanners could give an edge. I remember a short story somewhere (bit of golden age sf) about ships using a kind of time viewer thing to lead targets in space battles. Theirs could only see in the past, but if 31st UFP could see in the future, too (I don't know if they can), evasive maneuvers or trying to be unpredictable are pretty much useless.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Batman »

Depends entirely on how far reaching and how precise their precog is. Both the Jedi and the Palpatine could see the future. Didn't help either of them much in the long run. Seeing the ISD fire 5 seconds ahead of time and dodging so you won't be hit doesn't help you much if it turns out that future didn't come to happen and the ISD instead fired on where you are now.
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Batman »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:How about making the distinction "No time travel, but temporal technology (scanners, weapons, FTL etc) is permitted."
Works for me, I was mostly mystified by the term 'offensive' time travel. So what would be 'defensive' time travel?
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Metahive »

Since "offensive" space-time manipulation is all we ever see the 31sters do I object to arbitrarily restricting them in this regard, that's just the OP's ignorance talking who admitted he knew dick about that faction.
batman wrote:I didn't know we had offensive time travel rules. It's generally assumed that Trek resorting to time travel is a tacit admission that they'd lose without it and that for most of their time travel they lose with it regardless but get to live happily ever after in a different timeline, but I'm not aware of any board rule actually prohibiting time travel being used (which would effectively forbid there being Whoniverse threads altogether).
31st century's Trek space-time manipulation capabilities are much more advanced as those of earlier periods and explicitly used to wage war. For them manipulating timelines (or "keeping them as they should be") is standard MO. Manipulating the SW timeline presumably won't affect their own galaxy and therefore attempting to pick up Palpatine and toss him into a black hole should definitely be an option.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by mr friendly guy »

Even if you can't travel back in time and wipe out Palpatine in the past, one could still travel back in time, plant a bomb (like Braxton's out of phase bomb which is hard to detect) and then have the bomb detonate in the present so that history is pretty much unchanged. This type of trick was used humourously in the DW parody the Curse of Fatal Death, where the Doctor and the Master each take turns bribing an architect to design traps to counter each others traps.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by the atom »

In regards to firepower, wasn't there an episode where they showed an Enterprise from the 29th century? Could that give us anything to go on?
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

You're thinking of the Enterprise-J, from the 26th Century at the Battle of Procyon V. As I recall the most we see of it is an observation deck, a background schematic and a few phaser shots.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Agent Sorchus »

And it was from a none existent future. WE can say that the small 29th century ship that started the stories of the future corps was sort of a match for voyager, only not, and was defeated but left a wounded voyager alive. That is literally the best info we have for 29th century or beyond UFP or it's successors.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Captain Seafort »

Agent Sorchus wrote:And it was from a none existent future. WE can say that the small 29th century ship that started the stories of the future corps was sort of a match for voyager, only not, and was defeated but left a wounded voyager alive. That is literally the best info we have for 29th century or beyond UFP or it's successors.
There was also the Relativity from the episode of the same name, which we got a lot more information about.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Agent Sorchus »

The sort of info we have on it is very speculative, we have no real idea on how it stands up to fire or how much damage it can do. So still not enough info to say anything with any certainty, unlike knowing that the Aeon class small ship is less than Voyager, but not by a order of magnitude. A lot better quality of info to analyze.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

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Agent Sorchus wrote:The sort of info we have on it is very speculative, we have no real idea on how it stands up to fire or how much damage it can do. So still not enough info to say anything with any certainty, unlike knowing that the Aeon class small ship is less than Voyager, but not by a order of magnitude. A lot better quality of info to analyze.
Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines. Considering Braxton expected his ship to be able to take Voyager I would expect they are in a similar league, at least in terms of offensive and defensive power, with the Aeon obviously being far less of an "all-rounder" as Voyager. So if a 29th Century 1 man shuttle (6 meters in length) has power in the neighborhood of a mid-size Federation vessel (345 meters in length) a Timefleet ship the same size as Voyager is likely an order of magnitude or two more powerful than it is, given the that DS9 showed that fighters in fairly low numbers can be a threat to the smaller captial ships.

When we get to see a captial ship just 100 years more advanced (the 23rd Century USS Defiant) take on enemy captial ships of the era (22nd Century Earth/Terran Empire) it's a slaughter indicating a large power difference. If that trend holds between 29th and 31st then a proper 31st Century Timefleet ship is likely at least 3 orders of magnitude more powerful than a 24th Century Starfleet ship. Unfortunately that translates to little against the Empire as Federation ships can have slightly improved survivability and firepower, but they still get roasted and require numerical superiorty to have a chance at winning an engagement with the Imperials. This does change somewhat if 31st Century Timefleet can "phase" their weapons so they bypass SW shields and armor, like the Krenim temporal torpedoes, and detonate inside enemy ships. In that case they'd likely be able to fight Imperial ships on roughly even terms since they can disable them from the inside.

Metahive wrote:Since "offensive" space-time manipulation is all we ever see the 31sters do I object to arbitrarily restricting them in this regard, that's just the OP's ignorance talking who admitted he knew dick about that faction.
batman wrote:I didn't know we had offensive time travel rules. It's generally assumed that Trek resorting to time travel is a tacit admission that they'd lose without it and that for most of their time travel they lose with it regardless but get to live happily ever after in a different timeline, but I'm not aware of any board rule actually prohibiting time travel being used (which would effectively forbid there being Whoniverse threads altogether).
31st century's Trek space-time manipulation capabilities are much more advanced as those of earlier periods and explicitly used to wage war. For them manipulating timelines (or "keeping them as they should be") is standard MO. Manipulating the SW timeline presumably won't affect their own galaxy and therefore attempting to pick up Palpatine and toss him into a black hole should definitely be an option.

I would argue that 31st Century Timefleet has engaged largely in defensive time travel. If defensive time travel is defined as any time travel that seeks to prevent changes to the timeline then that's pretty much entirely what Daniels was doing. The other sides were giving their agents more advanced tech and massively altering history to try and kill the Federation, but from what we see of Daniels manipulation of time, he seemed to focus on undoing those changes rather then just upgrading Enterprise to say 25th Century tech and sending them to slaughter the Suliban, Sphere Builders, and anyone else involved in the Temporal Cold War. Still, nothing about that prevents them from beaming Palpatine into a blackhole, that's not time travel, that's just fun with transporters :lol:


Oh, and one other thing. The Federation might have some territory in the Delta Quadrant by the 31st Century, but they clearly do not have a major one as VOY: "Living Witness" shows. That story takes place in the DQ in the 31st Century and that civilization has not heard of nor had any contact with the Federation since their contact with Voyager. If Starfleet really had been setting up shop in the DQ since the 25th Century as stated by Q then you'd think in the following 600 years they'd have interacted with this race, even if it was just a bunch of tourists following the path Voyager took to get back home or something. So I would say that argues against the 31st Century Federation being some great galaxy spanning power.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Metahive »

avatarxprime wrote:Still, nothing about that prevents them from beaming Palpatine into a blackhole, that's not time travel, that's just fun with transporters
Transporters that can reach across time and space, no wonder it was just a "cold" war. I wonder what kind of range they have and how much matter they can affect at a time. If only B&B had explored the more interesting aspects of ENT a bit more instead of telling us what Lt. Reed's favorite dish is and that the chief engineer has a catfish fetish.

The idea of them yanking planets wholesale out of the SW galaxy to scatter in the void sounds appealing, but that's wank extraordinaire.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Simon_Jester »

The problem is that their capabilities are so vaguely defined that it's hard to rule out the wank for reasons other than "we want the Empire to win." Of course, it's equally difficult to argue clearly that those powers even exist at all, on so little evidence- double-edged sword there.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Metahive »

The ability to warp matter around within the space-time continuum is definitely existent, there are several canon examples for them doing so, every time Daniels spirits Archer away being the most prominent. One time that backfires horribly and destroys the future (Shockwave), that might explain why don't just do it willy-nilly and displace people left and right. There might however not be such repercussions for when they use it on the SW galaxy.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Metahive wrote:The ability to warp matter around within the space-time continuum is definitely existent, there are several canon examples for them doing so, every time Daniels spirits Archer away being the most prominent. One time that backfires horribly and destroys the future (Shockwave), that might explain why don't just do it willy-nilly and displace people left and right. There might however not be such repercussions for when they use it on the SW galaxy.
The line about quantum whatevers in desks is clearly meant to signify that time travel is as casual and familiar to 31st Century people as basic algebra is to us. This implies that no wank is too vigorous.

Also, didn't Voyager only survive that one-man shuttle's attack because of some deflector-related technobabble that was pretty out-there, even for Voyager? And some weird technobabble spacetime phenomena happening at the same time?
Oh, and one other thing. The Federation might have some territory in the Delta Quadrant by the 31st Century, but they clearly do not have a major one as VOY: "Living Witness" shows. That story takes place in the DQ in the 31st Century and that civilization has not heard of nor had any contact with the Federation since their contact with Voyager. If Starfleet really had been setting up shop in the DQ since the 25th Century as stated by Q then you'd think in the following 600 years they'd have interacted with this race, even if it was just a bunch of tourists following the path Voyager took to get back home or something. So I would say that argues against the 31st Century Federation being some great galaxy spanning power.
Shit, that's right. And that was a decent episode, too, so I can't just dismiss it on the grounds of 'fuck that noise'. But I wouldn't take it too far. After all, there are plenty of planets in the Star Wars galaxy where the heroes turn up and the civilization's never heard of the Empire because it's isolated or backwards or in one of those weird nebulae or whatever. No reason that Trek can't have its own equivalent to the Unknown Regions. That seems to me to be easier to reconcile with the other canon evidence we have than any other explanation.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by avatarxprime »

Metahive wrote:
avatarxprime wrote:Still, nothing about that prevents them from beaming Palpatine into a blackhole, that's not time travel, that's just fun with transporters
Transporters that can reach across time and space, no wonder it was just a "cold" war. I wonder what kind of range they have and how much matter they can affect at a time. If only B&B had explored the more interesting aspects of ENT a bit more instead of telling us what Lt. Reed's favorite dish is and that the chief engineer has a catfish fetish.

The idea of them yanking planets wholesale out of the SW galaxy to scatter in the void sounds appealing, but that's wank extraordinaire.
Planets seems to be a bit of a stretch, the most we've ever seen on screen is Enterprise being transported to 1944. Also, they certainly seem to have limitations, when Daniels wasn't allowed to go back in time to stop the Suliban and had to send Archer and T'Pol he also needed them to flag all the tech that didn't belong in that timeframe so he could pull it out. We know that even 24th Century Federation tech can scan for things not of the right time or things not of the right dimension, yet this did not allow Daniels to finish the job without traveling. We also know that 31st Century Trek has temporal observatories that can see things happening all across time, but again this didn't allow Daniels to handle the job without sending an agent. This implies they either need historical records (which would be in great abundance for the Captain of Enterprise) or "boots on the ground" for precision beaming and they cannot just scan for someone or something and beam it wherever they please. Of course this should not apply to beaming things within the same timeframe so again, Palpatine gets sent into the nearest blackhole should Timefleet feel that's the best solution.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Metahive wrote:The ability to warp matter around within the space-time continuum is definitely existent, there are several canon examples for them doing so, every time Daniels spirits Archer away being the most prominent. One time that backfires horribly and destroys the future (Shockwave), that might explain why don't just do it willy-nilly and displace people left and right. There might however not be such repercussions for when they use it on the SW galaxy.
The line about quantum whatevers in desks is clearly meant to signify that time travel is as casual and familiar to 31st Century people as basic algebra is to us. This implies that no wank is too vigorous.
True, but no one said what kind of time travel. They could all use those things so they can use a less capable version of Daniels' temporal observatory. They could also probably play around with paradox, like the kind of training that Seven was getting when 29th Century Timefleet grabbed her. Nothing says that high schoolers are regularly messing with time. Besides, if a time manipulation drive has replaced standard Warp drive for getting around the galaxy, every citizen would obviously be exposed to time-based technology on a regular basis.
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Also, didn't Voyager only survive that one-man shuttle's attack because of some deflector-related technobabble that was pretty out-there, even for Voyager? And some weird technobabble spacetime phenomena happening at the same time?
I'm not sure, I haven't seen the episode in ages and when I tried to find a youtube of just the battle I had no luck. I know they did use the deflector but I don't remember all the details. Based on Memory-Alpha all they really did was turn his attack back on itself.
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
avatarxprime wrote:Oh, and one other thing. The Federation might have some territory in the Delta Quadrant by the 31st Century, but they clearly do not have a major one as VOY: "Living Witness" shows. That story takes place in the DQ in the 31st Century and that civilization has not heard of nor had any contact with the Federation since their contact with Voyager. If Starfleet really had been setting up shop in the DQ since the 25th Century as stated by Q then you'd think in the following 600 years they'd have interacted with this race, even if it was just a bunch of tourists following the path Voyager took to get back home or something. So I would say that argues against the 31st Century Federation being some great galaxy spanning power.
Shit, that's right. And that was a decent episode, too, so I can't just dismiss it on the grounds of 'fuck that noise'. But I wouldn't take it too far. After all, there are plenty of planets in the Star Wars galaxy where the heroes turn up and the civilization's never heard of the Empire because it's isolated or backwards or in one of those weird nebulae or whatever. No reason that Trek can't have its own equivalent to the Unknown Regions. That seems to me to be easier to reconcile with the other canon evidence we have than any other explanation.
I'm doubtful of it being anything like that though. Voyager interacted with both civilizations, so if Starfleet was going to go back to the Delta Quadrant you'd think they would want to look up anyone Voyager had anything approaching friendly relations with and Voyager was in talks with the other civilization in that story. Both civilizations also ended up living in close union so if one got contacted the other would know about it. Well, that's my thought on the matter anyway.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

avatarxprime wrote: I'm doubtful of it being anything like that though. Voyager interacted with both civilizations, so if Starfleet was going to go back to the Delta Quadrant you'd think they would want to look up anyone Voyager had anything approaching friendly relations with and Voyager was in talks with the other civilization in that story. Both civilizations also ended up living in close union so if one got contacted the other would know about it. Well, that's my thought on the matter anyway.
But by the time the Federation reached the Delta Quadrant, centuries had already passed. Would UFP-26 even care about Voyager's records? Recalling Ron Moore's original idea for a TOS-callback episode that ended up being Trials & Tribble-ations, which was that the DS9 crew encounter the old gangster planet and find that they've been mimicking Starfleet now for a century, it would seem as though the Federation doesn't necessarily give a shit about following up on First Contact sometimes. And anyways, if they are in some kind of Trek Unknown Region, then obviously it would make sense if neither civilization was contacted.

Anyways, I just think that, given that the episode is kind of inconsistent with the rest of what we know (Federation expanded to Delta Quadrant several centuries ago, Federation expanded to other galaxies centuries ago, etcetera), it being a random fluke (or the literary equivalent of selection bias - most of the planets that got Voyager artifacts ended up in the Federation so they just gave them back to the Feds to be museum pieces, dramatic story lacking) sits better with me.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by Azron_Stoma »

I seem to recall in "Relativity" them not being able to beam through Voyager's shields.
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Re: 31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

Post by avatarxprime »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:But by the time the Federation reached the Delta Quadrant, centuries had already passed. Would UFP-26 even care about Voyager's records? Recalling Ron Moore's original idea for a TOS-callback episode that ended up being Trials & Tribble-ations, which was that the DS9 crew encounter the old gangster planet and find that they've been mimicking Starfleet now for a century, it would seem as though the Federation doesn't necessarily give a shit about following up on First Contact sometimes. And anyways, if they are in some kind of Trek Unknown Region, then obviously it would make sense if neither civilization was contacted.

Anyways, I just think that, given that the episode is kind of inconsistent with the rest of what we know (Federation expanded to Delta Quadrant several centuries ago, Federation expanded to other galaxies centuries ago, etcetera), it being a random fluke (or the literary equivalent of selection bias - most of the planets that got Voyager artifacts ended up in the Federation so they just gave them back to the Feds to be museum pieces, dramatic story lacking) sits better with me.

True, that is a possibility, but I still find it unlikely. I mean Voyager had attained celebrity status back in the AQ, you'd think at least one group of tourists would have ended up tracing their "incredible journey" in all that time.

Azron_Stoma wrote:I seem to recall in "Relativity" them not being able to beam through Voyager's shields.

That was also 29th Century Timefleet where if they sent you back in time too much it was fatal. 31st Century Timefleet (the one specified) has far better facility with their space-time manipulation tech. They can even pull off Dr. Who style bigger on the inside spaceships.
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