TOS constitution class starship vs ISD.

[Daefaron]

Okay, I got an idiot who believes that because Kirk bluffed and said general order 24 (wipe out all life on the planet), and said (IIRC) it'd take seven minutes, That a TOS connie (or, in the specific case, 6 of them) will easily overpower an ISD.

I actually linked him here and he went "They are lying." He quoted a Ds9 episode where a fleet of 20 battleships unleashed a volley of everything they could, and destroyed 30% of a planets crust, saying that proves his point about the Connie (their torpedos could destroy continents. I've disproved at least the fact that the TOS show ever showed such an event). He fails to understand time difference, as well as the fact it takes 20 top of the line battleships to do what 3 star destroyers did.(Aka, a base delta zero operation).

So, what should I pull out next against him?

[Esquire]

Is he arguing that the TOS Enterprise would do better than the TNG one? If not, point him towards the Star Wars vs. Star Trek in 5 Minutes article on the main site.

[Daefaron]

Yeah. I'll try again. I'm waiting on his response to me calling his rampant bullshit and lying about episode events. (Such as TOS, aka Kirk's enterprise launching torpedos and destroying continents in single hits, or the Enterprise D firing a phaser straight through an entire planet in the second to last TNG episode)

[Captain Seafort]

Okay, I got an idiot who believes that because Kirk bluffed and said general order 24 (wipe out all life on the planet), and said (IIRC) it'd take seven minutes

I've never seen any evidence that Kirk was bluffing about GO 24 (although he's pulling the "seven minutes" bit out of his arse), and it makes sense that a Connie should be able to flatten a planet, at least in the manner described:

All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.

That's an impressive amount of destruction, but it's also clearly no BDZ.

their torpedos could destroy continents. I've disproved at least the fact that the TOS show ever showed such an event

Actually, TOS does indeed show such an event, albeit using an antimatter charge rather than a deployable weapon - in Obsession "an ounce" of antimatter is described as being sufficient to blow "half the atmosphere" of a planet. The Enterprise subsequently moves out to maximum orbit of said planet, and is rocked hard when the charge explodes (demonstrating that a shock wave hit the ship, and therefore a significant chunk of the atmosphere was indeed thrown at it). Subsequent external visuals from TOS-R show massive scoring of the planetary surface, on a continental scale:

[Daefaron]

Yeah, but the picture I see doesn't show a continent gone.

As for bluffing, I meant more of the time it'd take then whether they could actually bombard the planet in a manner to render it lifeless.

And the torpedo event was specific to a photon torpedo launched by the Enterprise, hitting the planet and taking an entire continent with it.

However, I'm considering just ignoring this guy as he's constantly BSing episode events. and then he goes (I've personally seen 3 or 4/5 episodes he's said...) that what he says is the actual events of the show, and are canon. And thus I'm lying/should watch the show.

[Serafina]

How densely populated was Eminiar Seven?
Because destroying cities/installations just takes megaton-level firepower. If there aren't too many cities and if the population is concentrated in them, it'd be pretty easy to wipe them out with a bunch of nukes from spaces (and photon torpedoes do have the firepower for that).

Assuming a Photon Torpedo every minute (leaving some leeway for maneuvering and retargeting) and a few megatons per photon torpedo, the Enterprise could have wipred out 145 cities.

Now the counter-argument could be that that would not destroy "the entire inhabitated surface". Well, that depends on how the population is dispersed - if they (almost) all live in cities (quite possible for an advanced civilisation), then it would work. If they have small towns spread over the entire planet, it wouldn't.

But small towns could be taken out via phaser blasts - simply phasering the ground below a town will destroy it by creating a sinkhole, and we know that phasers are quite good against rocks. After all, destroy doesn't necessarily mean vaporize.


Bottom line:
General Order 24 is actually quite within the observed firepower of Star Trek, assuming that the population of Eminiar VII is NOT spread like that on Earth and is concentrated in a few dozen population centers. For other planets, they'd need more time and torpedoes. Destroying a city isn't THAT hard after all (if we're talking about sci-fi levels of firepower at least), so we don't have to change anything about the firepower estimates.



Furtherrmore, even IF one Constitution-cruiser overpowers an ISD, Star Wars would still win a war by virtue of
- superior numbers
- superior industrial capacities
- superior strategic speed
The latter is especially important, because it'd allow the Empire to amass forces much more easily (this has been done several times historically via naval and especially railway deployment), further increasing their numbers in each engagement.
As long as SW/ST are in the same ballpark in regards of firepower/shielding, Star Wars wins. The fact that they are not - in favor of Star Wars - only makes it worse.

[Stofsk]

Yeah, but the picture I see doesn't show a continent gone.

Dude, that shockwave is huge. Even if you're right and the other guy is a dipshit, the explosive effect is utterly massive from that screenshot.

[the atom]

Don't matter/antimatter reactions also give off a fuckton of radiation? I'd imagine that detonating a few hundred multi-megaton yield MA/AM bombs across the surface of a planet would probably be enough to severely poison a good portion of the planet's remaining population and ecosystem.

[Eternal_Freedom]

They give off a lot of prompt radiation (mostly gamma rays IIRC) but AFAIK they wouldn't leave any fallout. So, yes, you'll have large areas with no-one left alive but they would be habitable afterwards. Although, I think that the distance from ground zero needed for a fatal dose of radiation is less than that needed to be blasted into oblivion. I may be wrong however.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Another thing...even assuming that a Phaser is equal to a turbolaser, an ISD has what...60 of the darn things? So just the number of weapons on the ship would give the edge to the ISD. Unless a Connie can take 60-plus phaser equivalent blasts at once.

(If I'm wrong on the number of turbolasers I'm sorry and will withdraw that argument)

[Mask-999]

So this guy thinks 6 Constitution class ships, (armament in total : 72 phaser banks and at least 36 photon torpedo launchers, lets just say 3000 torps -500 per ship) can beat an Imperial Star Destroyer (armament below) :

Triple medium turbolasers (3)
Medium turbolasers (2)
Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolasers (60)
Borstel NK-7 ion cannons (60)
Phylon Q7 tractor beam projectors (10)

Complement

TIE/ln starfighter (48)
TIE/sa bomber (12)
TIE boarding craft (12)
Lambda-class shuttles (8)
Delta-class stormtrooper transports (15)
Assault gunboats (5)
A variable number of Skipray Blastboats
Gamma-class assault shuttle (1+)

That's what, 6 ships against using Trek Fleet counts 66 minor ships and 1 capital ship with a whole lot more powerful armament.
All the Star Destroyer would have to do is use 6 of its 10 tractor beams to hold onto the 6 enemy ships, then target all weapons at each ship while caught in the tractor beam and BOOM.
Good luck Trekkies.

[Mask-999]

Source from respective Star Trek and Star Wars wikis on both ships and armaments.

[Daefaron]

I'd say 500 torpedos per ship is a vast over-statement. The Galaxy class only held 250 per ship <_<.

[Darth Yoshi]

Wait, an ounce? That can't be right. Assuming a perfect reaction, an ounce of antimatter "only" yields ~1.2 megatons. The Tunguska event was estimated to be nearly an order of magnitude greater, and we're all still here.

[Daefaron]

Wait, an ounce? That can't be right. Assuming a perfect reaction, an ounce of antimatter "only" yields ~1.2 megatons. The Tunguska event was estimated to be nearly an order of magnitude greater, and we're all still here.

So... an anti-matter bomb containing an ounce of anti-matter, would hardly be enough to burn half a planet's atmosphere away?

[Serafina]

Obviously not.
Anti-matter isn't magic - it simply turns into energy when it comes in contact with matter. The result is simply an explosion. We know how much energy any given amount of matter contains, and antimatter can logically not release more energy than it (and it's annihilation-partner) contains.

And since an ounce of antimatter equals at best* 1.2 megatons, it'll of course not burn the atmosphere off a planet. We had plenty of explosions with higher yields - the largest human-made explosion was ~50 megatons, and there were much bigger explosions from volcanoes and asteroid impacts. And our planet still has it's atmosphere.

[Batman]

Wait, what? 6 photorp launchers on a Connie?
We see like 1 or 2 photorp launchers on the original (technically, we didn't even see that, we just generally saw fire coming from the same 2 places) and nothing but the single forward twin launcher on the refit.

[Eternal_Freedom]

More to the point, that ISd armamnet ignored the heavy guns on the dorsal flanks. If it's an ISD-1 it shoudl have 2 twin super-heavy Turbolasers and two twin super-heavy Ion Cannons. If it's an ISD-2 it shoudl have 8 octuple heavy turbolasers.

And 500 is waaaay too many torpedoes. Given the Galaxy had 250 and the relative sizes, I would be surprised if the Connies carried more than a hundred.

[Captain Seafort]

Obviously not.
Anti-matter isn't magic - it simply turns into energy when it comes in contact with matter. The result is simply an explosion. We know how much energy any given amount of matter contains, and antimatter can logically not release more energy than it (and it's annihilation-partner) contains.

And since an ounce of antimatter equals at best* 1.2 megatons, it'll of course not burn the atmosphere off a planet. We had plenty of explosions with higher yields - the largest human-made explosion was ~50 megatons, and there were much bigger explosions from volcanoes and asteroid impacts. And our planet still has it's atmosphere.

The problem with using such trivial things as the laws of physics is that this wasn't simply dialogue, that can be ignored as gross exaggeration if it doesn't measure up - the E-nil got bounced around pretty seriously, and we saw the damage it did to the planet. The best rationalisation I can think of is that they were talking about a fluid oz (in which case they were compressing the antimatter down to a density close to that of neutronium).

[Batman]

At a range of 36,000km (assuming that's maximum orbit when with Trek technology, you can orbit pretty much any distance you like) I doubt that all that much of that atmosphere would hit leave alone seriously affect the Enterprise. I find it considerably more likely this is yet another technobabble (possibly subspace-involving given the effects on the ship) weapon that only works under certain circumstances-if the thing has so much raw power, why was it never used again? Would've come in really nifty against the Borg for example. Or in 'Pegasus' where taking out that one measly asteroid would've taken most of their torpedo load. Or against the Jem'Haddar and the Dominion.

[Captain Seafort]

At a range of 36,000km (assuming that's maximum orbit when with Trek technology, you can orbit pretty much any distance you like) I doubt that all that much of that atmosphere would hit leave alone seriously affect the Enterprise.

Something certainly hit the ship, and shook her hard. Presumably the same something left continental-scale scorching on the surface. The conclusion that there was a massive explosion caused by a device contained within a foot-wide sphere is inescapable.

I find it considerably more likely this is yet another technobabble (possibly subspace-involving given the effects on the ship) weapon that only works under certain circumstances-if the thing has so much raw power, why was it never used again? Would've come in really nifty against the Borg for example. Or in 'Pegasus' where taking out that one measly asteroid would've taken most of their torpedo load. Or against the Jem'Haddar and the Dominion.

I never said anything about a weapon (or at least an easily deployable one), merely that the Feds are capable of causing bloody great bangs when they want to. Comparing the Tycho IV explosion to a PT is probably roughly analogous to comparing the Messines mines to normal field artillery.

[Batman]

At a range of 36,000km (assuming that's maximum orbit when with Trek technology, you can orbit pretty much any distance you like) I doubt that all that much of that atmosphere would hit leave alone seriously affect the Enterprise.

Something certainly hit the ship, and shook her hard.

Something hit NCC-2000 in TUC and shook her hard too. Guess what-subspace shockwave.

I never said anything about a weapon (or at least an easily deployable one)

What would you call a device capable of blowing off a considerable fraction of a planet's atmosphere? And the thing can be hand-carried by two people on foot. Doesn't get much more easily deployable than that

merely that the Feds are capable of causing bloody great bangs when they want to.

But possibly only under very specific circumstances.

Comparing the Tycho IV explosion to a PT is probably roughly analogous to comparing the Messines mines to normal field artillery.

Except in reverse. The Tycho IV device would easily fit into a photon torpedo casing. The Messines mines into a field gun-not so much.
So either we invoke lost technology/the Feds are stupid again, or accept that thing was a special purpose weapon not particularly suited for general combat.

[Captain Seafort]

Something hit NCC-2000 in TUC and shook her hard too. Guess what-subspace shockwave.

The difference being a shockwave capable propagating across multiple light years in a few minutes or hours is completely impossible, and we must therefore resort to technobabble to explain it. A planet's atmosphere being blown off and hitting a ship in orbit of that planet is physically possible.

What would you call a device capable of blowing off a considerable fraction of a planet's atmosphere?

A big bang. Not necessarily a weapon, any more than the early (house-sized) thermonuclear devices.

And the thing can be hand-carried by two people on foot. Doesn't get much more easily deployable than that

Assuming it's capable of withstanding the forces it will inevitably be subjected to if it's used in a PT.

But possibly only under very specific circumstances.

Sure, and that's part of what I've been arguing. What isn't disputable is that they can cause such explosions.

The Tycho IV device would easily fit into a photon torpedo casing. The Messines mines into a field gun-not so much.

I was talking more in general terms of relative yield and deployability than an exact comparison.

[Batman]

Something hit NCC-2000 in TUC and shook her hard too. Guess what-subspace shockwave.

The difference being a shockwave capable propagating across multiple light years in a few minutes or hours is completely impossible, and we must therefore resort to technobabble to explain it. A planet's atmosphere being blown off and hitting a ship in orbit of that planet is physically possible.

But not to the extent seen in the episode. Do the math on how far the atmosphere (and IIRC it was only 'a fraction', what fraction being unmentioned) would have dissipated at that range.

What would you call a device capable of blowing off a considerable fraction of a planet's atmosphere?

A big bang. Not necessarily a weapon, any more than the early (house-sized) thermonuclear devices.

The big bang was what created the universe. The initial thermonukes were for experimentation. This one was for use. Weapon.

And the thing can be hand-carried by two people on foot. Doesn't get much more easily deployable than that

Assuming it's capable of withstanding the forces it will inevitably be subjected to if it's used in a PT.

What forces? TNG photorps typically make modern day missiles look fast. In fact, those things are safe to carry a passenger at high Warp (so nominally that was a probe, but they use the same damn technology-down to the same casing).

But possibly only under very specific circumstances.

Sure, and that's part of what I've been arguing. What isn't disputable is that they can cause such explosions.

Sorry, but what with you bringing up neutronium-level density fluid ounces it sure looks like you were arguing DET event, which would be applicable anywhere yet somehow never happened again, even when it really would have saved their bacon (assuming they still have bacon in the 24th universe-healthy eating and all).

The Tycho IV device would easily fit into a photon torpedo casing. The Messines mines into a field gun-not so much.

I was talking more in general terms of relative yield and deployability than an exact comparison.

There's general terms and there's talking about a situation that's the exact opposite of what this is about.

[Darth Yoshi]

It'd pretty much have to be some sort of technobabble shockwave. Even assuming that the entirety of the ejected material remains within the wavefront instead of simply being dispersed, the inverse square law still applies, and by the time it reaches anything that we can even remotely consider "maximum orbit" the density will be so low that the ship shouldn't even feel it.